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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 0:07:56 GMT
Disclaimer: I have not played the game myself, but have watched tons of gameplay footage from Twitch streamers. Take it as you will.
This game is bound to have enormous balance issues that need to be sorted out.
1. The new approach is to give extreme amounts of mobility to the player on all axes (x,y,z). This in itself is not exactly a bad design decision, however, there is no cooldown on your jump-jet jump or side-dodge, which is a very, very bad design decision. Consequently you now have to balance the enemy AI around this new (infinite) locomotion. BioWare designers clearly couldn't figure out a solution to this, and decided in a half-assed attempt to bump the enemy's locomotion speed more in line with that of the ally player. Result: You now move much faster, but enemies also move much faster. The result is a chaotic mess.
The solution to this? Decrease horizontal mobiliy for both players and enemies, or add a cooldown to the side-dodge.
2. Enemy AI does not leave room for error. 1. They do not respect the role of cover in a cover-based shooter and 2. have no sense of self-preservation. This behavior significantly reduces tactical gameplay possibilities, as you can no longer tackle each enemy one by one, but instead have to face hordes of them at the same time and focus on the most immediate enemy that is most likely to kill you. (E.g. of games that do it right: The Division, Witcher 3, .. where you can focus on tackling enemies in order of roles). Cover is no longer reliable as enemies will simply go past and rush you out of it.
3. Cooperative play isn't really compatible with points 1 and 2. I assume what happens is every player flies around like a space ninja and tries to survive on his own because of the hectic pace of play, while ignoring each other.
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Post by Cyonan on Mar 17, 2017 2:10:04 GMT
It's understandable what they were thinking in a sense.
What happened in ME3 is that players very quickly found the easiest way to handle the game was to simply camp in a corner somewhere where the AI was either too dumb to figure out how to flank or simply couldn't flank. One could argue that better AI or map design might have resolved this, but they did try to fix the maps and we only moved onto a new spot. Every single time we found some way to exploit either the AI or the map no matter what they did.
I think what BioWare tried to plan for in this case is the eventuality for when we all have the game mechanics down solid which will vastly increase how much room we have for error against enemies. Based on what they did in ME3, it seems that BioWare doesn't like the idea of 4 people just camping in a corner somewhere for the entire match(and many players find this to be pretty boring).
The enemy AI is not entirely unlike ME3 in that they'll attempt to rush you to get you to stay on the move, but things are much more mobile now and they have more means to get through cover if you attempt to bunker down in an area.
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Post by What Else You Need To Know? on Mar 17, 2017 2:29:37 GMT
It's understandable what they were thinking in a sense. What happened in ME3 is that players very quickly found the easiest way to handle the game was to simply camp in a corner somewhere where the AI was either too dumb to figure out how to flank or simply couldn't flank. One could argue that better AI or map design might have resolved this, but they did try to fix the maps and we only moved onto a new spot. Every single time we found some way to exploit either the AI or the map no matter what they did. I think what BioWare tried to plan for in this case is the eventuality for when we all have the game mechanics down solid which will vastly increase how much room we have for error against enemies. Based on what they did in ME3, it seems that BioWare doesn't like the idea of 4 people just camping in a corner somewhere for the entire match(and many players find this to be pretty boring). The enemy AI is not entirely unlike ME3 in that they'll attempt to rush you to get you to stay on the move, but things are much more mobile now and they have more means to get through cover if you attempt to bunker down in an area. It didn't get any better than Glacier room with Biotic bubble, 2 smash, 1 dark channel or singularity. I remember going back through SP a while back and doing that mission and seeing the old layout. I stopped and smiled. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 3:17:20 GMT
It's understandable what they were thinking in a sense. What happened in ME3 is that players very quickly found the easiest way to handle the game was to simply camp in a corner somewhere where the AI was either too dumb to figure out how to flank or simply couldn't flank. One could argue that better AI or map design might have resolved this, but they did try to fix the maps and we only moved onto a new spot. Every single time we found some way to exploit either the AI or the map no matter what they did. Camping is the most effective strategy in most shooters for a good reason, and this will never change unless you change bullet speed in drastic ways. I think what BioWare tried to plan for in this case is the eventuality for when we all have the game mechanics down solid which will vastly increase how much room we have for error against enemies. Based on what they did in ME3, it seems that BioWare doesn't like the idea of 4 people just camping in a corner somewhere for the entire match(and many players find this to be pretty boring). I don't see this happening ever because of the reason mentioned above (enemy with line of sight + high bullet speed = instant damage). From all the footage I've watched, there is ZERO need for this much horizontal mobility. It's a gimmick that only makes this game less tactical than it could be. (Because of aforementioned reasons). The map design doesn't even account for it, as waist-high covers are spread out all across the map(s). The enemy AI is not entirely unlike ME3 in that they'll attempt to rush you to get you to stay on the move, but things are much more mobile now and they have more means to get through cover if you attempt to bunker down in an area. Well, enemies don't really respect cover at all. As I said earlier, this means you constantly need to back-off from cover-to-cover. It doesn't add strategy. It's just a huge annoyance. |
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Post by What Else You Need To Know? on Mar 17, 2017 3:26:13 GMT
Just saw a guy running around invisible to the enemy just murdering everything. Pretty obvious too. If they didn't catch that then I'm scared to see what else you can do.
Let them figure it out on their own people. They don't need a stupid beta test so they sure as hell don't need us.
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Post by Cyonan on Mar 17, 2017 3:59:01 GMT
Camping is the most effective strategy in most shooters for a good reason, and this will never change unless you change bullet speed in drastic ways. I don't see this happening ever because of the reason mentioned above (enemy with line of sight + high bullet speed = instant damage). From all the footage I've watched, there is ZERO need for this much horizontal mobility. It's a gimmick that only makes this game less tactical than it could be. (Because of aforementioned reasons). The map design doesn't even account for it, as waist-high covers are spread out all across the map(s). Well, enemies don't really respect cover at all. As I said earlier, this means you constantly need to back-off from cover-to-cover. It doesn't add strategy. It's just a huge annoyance. If camping usually becomes the most effective strategy then limiting dodging wont actually make the game more tactical, it'll just make the game have a lot more camping because in turn they'll have to start letting cover be more effective otherwise we go splat because of the limited mobility. Then we're back to Firebase White/Geth/Gold where the overwhelming majority of games are just camping in the same spot every single time. From what I've played so far cover is actually very useful in ME:A MP, you just can't expect to sit in the same spot for half the match anymore. Not until we find those specific spots to exploit for easy wins and get some better equipment, which is going to take a little bit of time for us all to get used to the new stuff. There was decent amount of complaints about the amount of camping that happened in ME3 MP, so this is probably a response to that. I've no idea if it was what the majority actually wanted, but it was the general attitude of a lot of the forums back in the day on the old BSN. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 4:16:55 GMT
Camping is the most effective strategy in most shooters for a good reason, and this will never change unless you change bullet speed in drastic ways. I don't see this happening ever because of the reason mentioned above (enemy with line of sight + high bullet speed = instant damage). From all the footage I've watched, there is ZERO need for this much horizontal mobility. It's a gimmick that only makes this game less tactical than it could be. (Because of aforementioned reasons). The map design doesn't even account for it, as waist-high covers are spread out all across the map(s). Well, enemies don't really respect cover at all. As I said earlier, this means you constantly need to back-off from cover-to-cover. It doesn't add strategy. It's just a huge annoyance. If camping usually becomes the most effective strategy then limiting dodging wont actually make the game more tactical, it'll just make the game have a lot more camping because in turn they'll have to start letting cover be more effective otherwise we go splat because of the limited mobility. Limiting dodging allows you to decrease enemy mobility (because they have to be in sync). You cannot have too much mobility, where you could kite the enemy forever or dance around it, without buffing the enemy mobility as well. That's exactly what's going on right now and it's the root of the problem as to how hectic the game plays (you can travel fast, but enemies too, and it creates a lot of chaos). Dodging is again just a gimmick because you can't dodge bullets, only melee hits, and those don't happen too often. They just need to limit it via a cooldown. Usually, less chaos = more room for tactical play. Same reason why you move so slow in combat in DA:I. |
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Post by Cyonan on Mar 17, 2017 7:28:33 GMT
If camping usually becomes the most effective strategy then limiting dodging wont actually make the game more tactical, it'll just make the game have a lot more camping because in turn they'll have to start letting cover be more effective otherwise we go splat because of the limited mobility. Limiting dodging allows you to decrease enemy mobility (because they have to be in sync). You cannot have too much mobility, where you could kite the enemy forever or dance around it, without buffing the enemy mobility as well. That's exactly what's going on right now and it's the root of the problem as to how hectic the game plays (you can travel fast, but enemies too, and it creates a lot of chaos). Dodging is again just a gimmick because you can't dodge bullets, only melee hits, and those don't happen too often. They just need to limit it via a cooldown. Usually, less chaos = more room for tactical play. Same reason why you move so slow in combat in DA:I. The problem is that removing the mobility puts you right back in ME3's Firebase White/Geth/Gold territory where players do nothing but camp all game long in the exact same place, which BioWare notably didn't like and many players on the forums found incredibly boring to run into lobbies that had that going on the overwhelming majority of the time. People will naturally always try to camp because if you can make it work, it tends to be highly effective but slowing down the pace of combat just opens it up for nothing but camping far more easily. You haven't really explained how that would be addressed. Personally I don't want Mass Effect to become a game of camping in a corner again. I find that about as tactical as playing Rambo. |
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Post by akots on Mar 17, 2017 8:38:01 GMT
With all due respect, I mostly agree with Cyonan. It is neither Witcher nor CoD nor Division and has a lot of similarity with ME3 MP. IMO, it is quite unique. It actually plays quite fine, pace is OK and enemies are not that fast if you compare to goon rush or collector captain stomp. DAIMP was way too slow. In MEA, some of the enemies rush, some stay in cover and try to snipe or throw grenades while others try to flank. Some enemies are faster than the players, some are slower. Most people I played with actually stick together, revive, and don't jump a lot. Those who jump usually are killed quite rapidly as it exposes the player completely. Dodge feels kind of tricky, probably takes some time to get used to. And you cannot dodge again up until the animation is finished and then probably half a second after that, so there is a sort of cool down. The game encourages constant movement which is not bad on its own. But if objective is hack, and team stays together, at least on bronze, the hacking circle is usually not overrun. So, camping is certainly an option in a right spot. I think it is tactical enough if you are paying attention and have some situational awareness. Just keep in mind that most of the weapons are really bad and people are playing with low level characters while at the same time having no idea what to do and what the controls are.
However, HUD is kind of clunky and too many things move at the same time. But is looks quite realistic and overall feel is fine IMHO. Although I wish it had less info or more condensed info.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 10:16:44 GMT
Those dogs make camping impossible. It's not just the changes in the map but the fact that you can get swarmed by dogs that have a cloak. I had about three on me at one point while I was trying to recover some health. I was on the mic calling out to the turian behind me who had a few of them coming up on his rear. It's very easy to get focused on the main threat and then get killed or have a lot of health taken out by those dogs. Melee works pretty good on them in brozen but I don't know how effective that will be in silver or gold.
Cover is a solid tactic. Now that they have removed that it changes things a lot. I get that this is not a 'real world' shooter but I feel like it should have some sound tactics from the real world available to us. Whenever I got settled into some cover for a min to assess the situation and try to get a feel for the map (where I could go and where ammo crates were), I had dogs on me.
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