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Post by crusty on Aug 19, 2016 13:50:44 GMT
Implying I would ever dish out shekels for forum moderators.
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DragonRacer
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Post by DragonRacer on Aug 19, 2016 17:03:31 GMT
Mercenary moderators for an online forum is never going to be a well paying job. I just don't see why they didn't continue to leverage free volunteer moderators instead of paying for cheap labour. They could have one designated co-ordinator to act as the lead mod (I wonder if there is a position at BioWare where someone manages the fan community, maybe a Manager of the Community or something)... Are they truly that lazy and dismissive of their fan community, that they'd rather spend money to outsource 24/7 moderation, when they could've done it for free with some effort? Yup, especially the bolded. In January 2015, I wrote up an Anders-sized manifesto of forum thoughts/suggestions when it was looking like the BioWare-forum relationship was heading into potential dark times (such as what we're seeing now: The End Of All Things). I submitted it to a few devs that I had direct contact with and they were kind enough to pass it up the food chain that they had access to. That was the last I ever heard of it and, I suppose, the decision to eventually phase out the forums had already been made before I even submitted it, I reckon. Either way, it's very clear now that they wanted the forum eventually gone. I'm not trying to have a big ego and feel that my suggestions were the be-all and end-all of forum resolution, but I'd like to think it was at least very rational and, on some levels, doable. Had the desire been there, and that's the key - it wasn't. For those curious, I've got it in the spoiler box below. Warning - it's a 7-page document, so prepare to scale the wall of text. I make no apologies for having been long-winded in my passion and desire to see the forum not come to this. EDIT: Pretend it has indented paragraphs. Copy-pasting from Word... does things in forums. LOL Thoughts on Forum’s Potential Future
By Tiffany/DragonRacer
The BioWare Forum is a subject very near and dear to my heart, and also one that brings me some measure of sadness. I imagine my journey into fandom started like many others. I had never before paid much attention to specific developers or publishers; I just picked up games whose description on the back of the box sounded fun. A year after Dragon Age: Origins released, I picked up a used copy and gave it a whirl… and instantly fell in love.
What was the first thing I wanted to do? See what others were saying about it. I had questions to ask, feelings to share, other viewpoints to seek out. A quick Google search for “Dragon Age message board” brought up the BioWare Social Network. I lurked for a few weeks, reading countless threads and learning much. I also noticed there were certain posters in the forum with a BioWare tag denoting them as devs and I thought, “I have found the Holy Grail of gaming. An official forum where some of the developers of the actual game talk with the fans? Wow!”
I joined not too long after and made my fair share of posts and new threads. From the forum, I learned about Mass Effect, the other game series developed recently by BioWare. I was on PS3 and so only had access to Mass Effect 2 at the time. I asked fans on the forum if it was worth jumping into the trilogy without having access to the first game. Based on their feedback, I picked it up and fell in love all over again.
I followed the forum much more closely after that. Watched the pre-game hype for Dragon Age 2 and greatly enjoyed my time. And then came the post-release discovery that the forum had a darker side, as much toxicity came brewing up and anyone who enjoyed any aspect of DA2 was publicly flogged. I stopped visiting the forum so frequently.
Eventually, I came back again in full force as Mass Effect 3 came up on the horizon. I know I don’t need to rehash how the forum went after release; y’all had to live it and suffer it. It was watching the toxicity and insanity on the forum that spurred me to write that letter of “thank you and keep your chins up” after ME3 played a part in helping me deal with the aftermath of my mother’s suicide, the letter that was met with such an outpouring of care and love from you all that you made a loyal fan for life.
I determined not to be run off by negativity again and decided to work extra hard at being a positive influence in the forum. I mostly kept to the ME3 Multiplayer forum while the single player forums burned during that timeframe and focused on helping new players adjust to the game. I eventually went on to create a stickied thread of helpful links and even ran the first, and only, successful fan tournament. Much to my surprise, I became a bit of a leader in that forum and there are many now in the DAIMP forum who recognize me from there.
After making such an impact in the Mass Effect forum, I endeavored to do the same in the Dragon Age forum as you worked on Dragon Age: Inquisition, returning to my original roots as a Dragon Age fan. That was where I discovered the Twitter thread, fan-run and fan-updated, and eventually led to creating a Twitter account myself, as well as creating a stickied DAIMP resource thread in the same vein I made the ME3MP one.
I gave that long-winded back story to lead up to this (and this is where my public relations major from back in my college years starts to rear its head): your forum – your official forum – is a 24/7 public face for your company and your games. I started as a used game player who did a quick Google search one day and landed in your official forum. That led to me learning about your other games, purchasing them (even the older ones, like Baldur’s Gate and Neverwinter Nights), religiously preordering all your new games as the pre-game hype built, refusing to buy used games ever again because I want all my money in your pockets and not a used game store’s, and following your Facebook and Twitter accounts as well as your website and YouTube channel. I was led to those other official sources of information through the forum.
And yet, the forum seems to be the most “neglected” of the media sources you utilize. Obviously, somebody runs the website, the Twitter account, the Facebook account, the YouTube channel, and the blog in some sort of official capacity. But the forum feels a bit like a rudderless ship. News from those official sources oftentimes only shows up on the official forum when fans re-post the info. It’s like the forums exist and the fans largely run the show (which makes some sense, as we outnumber you by an extremely large margin; there will always be thousands more threads and posts by fans than by developers), but the only official presence are some faceless, numbered mods from what I’m guessing (perhaps wrongly) is an outsourced commodity. Occasionally some of the developers will volunteer their time to post, and that’s a mixed bag – sometimes people are nice and grateful for the information and other times people are complete and total dicks. Which often leads to the devs pulling back and then the fans grow restless and the cycle repeats itself over and over.
Threads like this one, they make me weep inside.
It was started by a fan who I’ve always viewed as a good and positive one in the forums. The fact that he/she feels that way, and that many others echoed the feeling, is not a good situation.
Now, that being said, the interaction as of late has vastly improved. Vastly. Many devs are now posting informational threads on upcoming events or patches. Some are bouncing around answering questions. The fact you grabbed some PC folks to help beta test Patch 5 is simply phenomenal, in my opinion. This is good. No, this is great. This is what one envisions seeing in an official forum. The sad part is that this sudden resurgence of interaction appears to have occurred because of a literal fan uprising in the DAIMP forum that involved a very public lynch mob against one of the few devs who voluntarily tried to interact and caught the worse end of the deal.
Teddie Sage’s thread brings up an incredibly valid question: who is our Community Manager? Do we even have one? I had thought it was David Huleegard, but that doesn’t really seem to be the case as far as the forum goes. It was Chris Priestly once, and everyone on the forum knew this. Then it was Jessica Merizan, and, again, everyone on the forum knew this. Now both are gone elsewhere and we are left with literally zero clue. Who is running the forum in an official capacity? Is it even being run in an official capacity?
If there is a Community Manager for the forum, they may want to revisit how it’s being run from the top down. Or, if there isn’t one, the absence is most certainly felt. If there is one, but their job is to focus on the other official modes of information dissemination, then perhaps it may be time to consider a second position devoted to the forum? Perhaps it seems much to saddle a forum as only one position, but I do understand the forum is a massive beast compared to running the other accounts, which are largely about dispersing information moreso than direct fan interaction on as intimate a level as a message board presents.
I do not say all this to make anyone feel bad. I especially don’t say this to make any of the devs who do dedicate their own personal downtime to the forum feel as if they are not doing enough. Many of you know me well enough by now to know the depth of genuine love and respect I hold for you. And I have been there in the trenches, miserably watching as you get dogpiled sometimes. I know. I understand. But I recognize that you have your very unique dev perspective on the forum, while I have my own unique fan/user perspective on the forum. I say all this simply to try and express a fan’s view of the forum to you. That includes where it feels lacking and why.
So, what are my thoughts on how we can try and improve this? How can we make a safe space for the devs to interact without fearing witch hunts and for fans to feel like they have a positive community to interact with, rather than a place that drives them away because of negativity and toxicity (a complaint I see on Twitter a lot, sadly, and occasionally still feel myself at times)?
Let’s pretend we blew it all up, Anders Chantry-style, and started from the ground up again.
I view maintaining a forum much like tending a garden. These are my three major guides:
1. You have to seed it properly and give it love and maintenance to grow good things. This means you need to have some type of presence in it – something regular, preferably, rather than in spouts and bursts dependent on mood and level of forum vitriol/happiness. Someone or several someones who regularly interact, even if that is maybe only once or twice a week and – this is important – spread equally across at least the most active subforums (i.e. giving more love and maintenance to the DAIMP forum may – and will, as I’ve seen grumblings – lead to dissent in other subforums, such as single player, who may feel neglected, ignored, cast aside, or less important than the multiplayer fans).
2. Weed regularly. There are a lot of troll accounts that exist only to raise people’s hackles and negative types who post the same copy-pasted complaint in every thread or make multiple threads across the forums to express their disdain… or, worse (in my opinion), only seem to exist to pop into any positive thread they see and immediately shit all over it. Please excuse the language on that, but there is truly no polite way to express how disgusting it is to see thread after thread started by a happy fan literally get shot down in the second or third post by one of the “resident whiners”. There is a fine line between someone expressing concern or a legitimate complaint about an issue they are having or a feature they dislike vs someone who appears to get their jollies by just being a Negative Nancy in as many threads as possible. Perhaps these simply aren’t being reported enough, but the weeds need to be pulled regularly. A thorny plant is fine and can be beneficial – after all, constructive criticism is how we all learn and grow, and there are plenty of fans capable of dispensing that in a civil manner – but the really bad or regularly bad ones need to be shown the door. These are, after all, your forums. You do not have to put up with a guest coming in and proceeding to lay a deuce on your fine Orlesian rug.
3. Maintain the mature plants while grooming the seedlings. This is just Business 101 no matter what you’re selling, whether it be newspaper ads or video games. You want and need to maintain your core (often hardcore, yes) customers while gaining news ones. After all, there is natural attrition as people move on to other games, become too busy to consider themselves gamers anymore, or otherwise leave the fandom and/or forum and you need fresh blood coming in to replace them and become your future “veterans”, while growing your overall baseline. This means patrolling subforums where the “newbies” are most likely to start their forum experience and making sure it’s a positive one (such as the general help subforum or the non-spoiler discussion one, as well as MP subforums where you’ll often see threads made by new players looking for help or advice). Nothing can be more off-putting than joining a forum and immediately getting assaulted by negativity. I saw that happen a few times in the ME3MP subforum and I made every effort to step in and tell people to chill out, and often would personally message the new person and apologize on behalf of us all. Made some friends and some new forum “veterans” from the experience, but I can only do so much. I am, after all, only one fan and I only have so much influence with my fellow fans – I am sure there are some who view me as just a “BioWare shill” or what have you.
These guidelines sound pretty solid, right? They also sound like so much puffery from a self-help book or one of those “30,000-mile bird’s eye view of the situation” types of meetings that look great on the paper and maybe you leave them feeling good and motivated, but then you realize nothing REALLY got said or done. How do you take a lame analogy about a nice garden with pretty flowers and make steps to actually, really achieve that?
I have a few thoughts on that front, too. You can take it or leave it or say, “Tiff, you’re out to lunch because you have no idea how our inner workings go down”… and you really can say that, you know, you’re not gonna hurt my feelings. I’m a forum “veteran”, after all, so my skin is Deep Roads-thick from mere survival. My only hope is that some part of this may be deemed a useful thought, if nothing else; a starting point for brainstorming.
1. Community moderators brought back or new ones enlisted? I remember back when we had named moderators, people like Ninja Stan (former employee, I know) or RaenImrahl. It seemed more personal and people tended to at least behave a little better if they felt like they “knew” the mods, even if they didn’t. Switching over to the BioWareModInsertNumberHere was a move that I understand from a bottom line and time management standpoint, but it raised a lot of discontent. And, honestly, it made things pretty awkward because I saw people and posts get temporarily banned/deleted because of an inside joke between friends getting taken totally out of context. Rules are important, but so is some level of leniency. Nobody wants to fear posting in a police state. Surely a good balance can be struck? After all, our own real life communities are monitored by the police who live among us, who know our community and are aware of “the usual suspects”. The original reason we were given for bringing the “faceless” mods in was that it would free the named moderators up to interact more with the community. Instead, they disappeared entirely. Perhaps a return to them or, at least, their heritage is one for consideration? Heavy forum users who are online a lot, who are familiar with the community, who have proven trustworthy (Hrungr and ElitePinecone immediately spring to mind as examples), who are in a lot of the threads every day. If they were empowered to redirect the flow of a hot topic thread or to warn a troublemaker, I think that would be immensely helpful. I think many posts or threads go unreported simply because people might not understand the report feature, they fear a full thread closure/deletion rather than one or two people/posts being moderated, or the general disdain of thinking themselves a “snitch”. Regular community members – empowered – could address such issues when they see them, rather than rely on hoping someone reports trouble while a thread festers more and more.
2. A moderator or developer assigned to each subforum or similar grouping of subforums? Maybe this is a bit much to ask of people who are already volunteering their limited time, but it may behoove considering. Of the devs who like and want to interact with the forum, perhaps they could all get together and organize themselves into a collective and segment certain parts of the forum out to “monitor” or “maintain” (preferably the ones they have a direct interest in, of course). For example, someone taking on the Dragon Age: Inquisition single player forums, someone taking the Dragon Age: Inquisition Romance/Character forums, someone taking the Dragon Age MP forums, someone taking the Mass Effect 3 single player forums, repeat previous examples, etc. That particular dev who has taken on a certain subforum or set of subforums would take it upon himself or herself to be responsible for stickied topics, providing general info such as an FAQ (if needed), a list of bugs being reviewed (if allowed to disclose), balance changes, hints at upcoming content (as allowed and if allowed, of course), announcement of weekend challenges/insider videos/livestreams, etc. If it’s worthy of being posted on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, or as a news update on the website or the blog, it’s worthy of being posted on the appropriate subforum. These are the official forums, after all.
3. If that’s not feasible, could “Community Collectors” be a viable option? Good forumites like myself, Hrungr, ElitePinecone, etc. that could be given some type of displayed status showing we have a semi-official capacity forum-wise (a step below moderator?), who can collect the hottest topics/issues and maybe submit a weekly report/inquiry to a designated dev liaison? That could help to give the forum answers/some “official” dev presence without asking the devs themselves to stick their necks out on their free time. Let us take on some of your burden and help funnel the most important issues, if need be. You need not shoulder this alone. Let some of your “super users” help with the task. I am sure many would see it as a great honor.
4. Create surveys for folks to provide real feedback they feel is actually viewed? Like the Keep team did during the Beta. Because having a Feedback subforum specifically for “Want to get your thoughts directly to the BioWare Community Team? Put it down on paper here” and then nothing happens in there save for faceless mods locking threads is just… it’s quite possibly the most neglected subforum and in that there is an irony I cannot quite describe given what its intended purpose was for. Is that subforum even being looked at? By anyone? That one should perhaps get the most attention out of any since that is what its stated purpose is.
5. Community Manager – maybe this needs to be extended to a second person, if the current role is too much for just one to handle? And that very well could be (I know I said that before earlier in my ramblings, but I feel it deserves repeating).
I will leave this rather long-winded dissertation on these final thoughts:
I remember David Huleegard blogging about a “Day in the Life of a Community Manager” a long while back, how much coordination with the various teams that entailed, but I saw a lot of mention about YouTube videos, the Twitter account, and the Facebook account. And experimenting with Instagram. No real mention of the official forums. At all. Which is as perplexing as it is a bit disturbing, honestly. These aren’t unofficial fan forums. These aren’t a random place on the Internet or a subforum on some random gaming site. These are your official forums. When people who have bought your games go online to find info – be it general discussion or tech help or “how do I solve this quest, help, I am stuck” – the BioWare forum comes up basically at the top of the organic Google search engine. That’s money. People spend a lot on search engine optimization to rise that high in Google searches, and that money doesn’t guarantee the kind of positioning you already have (I know this for a fact because I sell this in my daily job).
So, naturally, customers searching see that result link near the top and go there. Only to see some praise, a lot of bitching, some help, and very little of anything official. It’s an untended garden. There are weeds everywhere and a newcomer has no idea where to look other than to be overwhelmed (maybe some type of “Welcome to the Official BioWare Forums” introductory forum or stickied thread at the top of the forum giving further direction/outlining the subforums, etc). That’s how I started my forum life. I took my knocks from trolls and persevered because I’m hard-headed and resilient like that, but new forumites need not have to go through the same.
I’d like to think that the public forum is not beyond hope of saving. It just needs a little extra help and, in my opinion, a unified guiding force, such as a Community Manager. If this is not something deserving of an official BioWare employee, surely it’s deserving of a dedicated fan volunteer, group of fan volunteers, or something. Let’s work together to make a forum that represents your company and games in the brightest light and provides a safe place for fans to gather and talk, both with the developers and amongst themselves.
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Kantr
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Post by Kantr on Aug 19, 2016 18:16:40 GMT
Mercenary moderators for an online forum is never going to be a well paying job. I just don't see why they didn't continue to leverage free volunteer moderators instead of paying for cheap labour. They could have one designated co-ordinator to act as the lead mod (I wonder if there is a position at BioWare where someone manages the fan community, maybe a Manager of the Community or something)... Are they truly that lazy and dismissive of their fan community, that they'd rather spend money to outsource 24/7 moderation, when they could've done it for free with some effort? They have a content manager. twitter.com/HulegaardBooks
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DragonRacer
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Post by DragonRacer on Aug 19, 2016 18:43:43 GMT
Mercenary moderators for an online forum is never going to be a well paying job. I just don't see why they didn't continue to leverage free volunteer moderators instead of paying for cheap labour. They could have one designated co-ordinator to act as the lead mod (I wonder if there is a position at BioWare where someone manages the fan community, maybe a Manager of the Community or something)... Are they truly that lazy and dismissive of their fan community, that they'd rather spend money to outsource 24/7 moderation, when they could've done it for free with some effort? They have a content manager. twitter.com/HulegaardBooksCrusty was being sarcastic. They do have a content manager (David) and a Community Manager (Conal). It's just that nobody hardly ever saw them on the forum or, the few times they did, it was only to announce bad news about features they were taking away from the forum. Not any actual, active community managing.
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mousestalker
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Post by mousestalker on Aug 19, 2016 18:48:14 GMT
What does a content manager do? It sounds like the guy who herds the writers...
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Kantr
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Post by Kantr on Aug 19, 2016 18:50:49 GMT
I don't think the forums are his Job. Seems more to do with the books and stuff and I think he mentioned the social media accounts.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Aug 19, 2016 18:52:33 GMT
I'm thinking about writing a message to Mod02 .... hm ... at least there is the option when you click on the profile... I think I will do that on Aug 25th They probably won't even read it. I've sent messages to all mods and most of them are still tagged "unread". If they read it, they will not respond. Yeah, they won't read it. I've sent mods 4 PMs so far, and haven't gotten any replies even when they read them (3 were asking to clarify site-rules, which surely they must have a responsibility to do). It's utterly unprofessional and gives us practically no means to contest poor moderation (especially since we're not even allowed to discuss moderation in posts, apparently). That makes me so angry Anyway, the one I sent just now has to do with this post. As you can see, the quote in my post was edited, and yet I got a warning point for "using inappropriate language"!!! I mean, what the bloody hell is that?! /Zaeed So I sent Mod5 a PM explaining how I didn't actually do anything, and that's quite unfair. Plus, anyone who knows me will probably realize that I seldom use "inappropriate language". My tinfoil hat theory is that the mods have a vendetta against me (but not just me) and are trying to pin anything they can on me Hmm I asked Conal if it was Monitored. He did say I could message him instead. I'll try that. I suppose I may message him instead, once I'm satisfied I won't get an answer, then. For whatever good it does.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Aug 19, 2016 19:07:09 GMT
After a recent Warning Point from Mod02 for "bypassing the profanity filter", I PM her back to inform her that I didn't bypass anything at all, their filter allows you to say assholes with no manipulation whatsoever. The PM itself also contained profanity, listing several examples, but I got neither a reply, nor an additional Warning Point for moderator abuse, which was pretty surprising actually. A subsequent post with "fucking", which is allowed as long as there are quotation marks around it, (which, within the context of the post, were absolutely appropriate and even necessary), I never even got a point for, and it never even got removed. I think she's finally given up chasing after me. Wow, looks like they need to work on their filter Not that it matters anymore. After I found out how little the BioMods are paid ($8.55/hour), I lost all desire to mess with them. I'm pretty sure that the BioMods are simply shells that the worker bees log into, likely with no consistency as to personnel. So Suzy may be BioMod02 one day and Biff the next. I don't like how Bioware has handled this. I don't like the ModSquad. Their website makes them sound like terminal douches, but the workers I feel sorry for. They are doing a job that is difficult at best for little money and no rewards. It would be great if they unionized, but that isn't very likely. I understand what you're saying, but it won't change my attitude towards them, I don't think. They should and could still have done a much better and more consistent job moderating than they did, even with a crappy wage. Or maybe I'm just expecting too much professional integrity And I'll still send PMs asking for clarification and calling them out for not making sense and being unfair. I mean, that wage sucks, but it's hard for me to feel that sorry for them when they are either not even trying to trying way, way too hard. Also, where are they outsourced from? Because that's quite a bit below minimum wage where I'm from, in Canada. In January 2015, I wrote up an Anders-sized manifesto of forum thoughts/suggestions when it was looking like the BioWare-forum relationship was heading into potential dark times (such as what we're seeing now: The End Of All Things). For those curious, I've got it in the spoiler box below. Warning - it's a 7-page document, so prepare to scale the wall of text. I make no apologies for having been long-winded in my passion and desire to see the forum not come to this. EDIT: Pretend it has indented paragraphs. Copy-pasting from Word... does things in forums. LOL Thoughts on Forum’s Potential Future By Tiffany/DragonRacer The BioWare Forum is a subject very near and dear to my heart, and also one that brings me some measure of sadness. I imagine my journey into fandom started like many others. I had never before paid much attention to specific developers or publishers; I just picked up games whose description on the back of the box sounded fun. A year after Dragon Age: Origins released, I picked up a used copy and gave it a whirl… and instantly fell in love. What was the first thing I wanted to do? See what others were saying about it. I had questions to ask, feelings to share, other viewpoints to seek out. A quick Google search for “Dragon Age message board” brought up the BioWare Social Network. I lurked for a few weeks, reading countless threads and learning much. I also noticed there were certain posters in the forum with a BioWare tag denoting them as devs and I thought, “I have found the Holy Grail of gaming. An official forum where some of the developers of the actual game talk with the fans? Wow!” I joined not too long after and made my fair share of posts and new threads. From the forum, I learned about Mass Effect, the other game series developed recently by BioWare. I was on PS3 and so only had access to Mass Effect 2 at the time. I asked fans on the forum if it was worth jumping into the trilogy without having access to the first game. Based on their feedback, I picked it up and fell in love all over again. I followed the forum much more closely after that. Watched the pre-game hype for Dragon Age 2 and greatly enjoyed my time. And then came the post-release discovery that the forum had a darker side, as much toxicity came brewing up and anyone who enjoyed any aspect of DA2 was publicly flogged. I stopped visiting the forum so frequently. Eventually, I came back again in full force as Mass Effect 3 came up on the horizon. I know I don’t need to rehash how the forum went after release; y’all had to live it and suffer it. It was watching the toxicity and insanity on the forum that spurred me to write that letter of “thank you and keep your chins up” after ME3 played a part in helping me deal with the aftermath of my mother’s suicide, the letter that was met with such an outpouring of care and love from you all that you made a loyal fan for life. I determined not to be run off by negativity again and decided to work extra hard at being a positive influence in the forum. I mostly kept to the ME3 Multiplayer forum while the single player forums burned during that timeframe and focused on helping new players adjust to the game. I eventually went on to create a stickied thread of helpful links and even ran the first, and only, successful fan tournament. Much to my surprise, I became a bit of a leader in that forum and there are many now in the DAIMP forum who recognize me from there. After making such an impact in the Mass Effect forum, I endeavored to do the same in the Dragon Age forum as you worked on Dragon Age: Inquisition, returning to my original roots as a Dragon Age fan. That was where I discovered the Twitter thread, fan-run and fan-updated, and eventually led to creating a Twitter account myself, as well as creating a stickied DAIMP resource thread in the same vein I made the ME3MP one. I gave that long-winded back story to lead up to this (and this is where my public relations major from back in my college years starts to rear its head): your forum – your official forum – is a 24/7 public face for your company and your games. I started as a used game player who did a quick Google search one day and landed in your official forum. That led to me learning about your other games, purchasing them (even the older ones, like Baldur’s Gate and Neverwinter Nights), religiously preordering all your new games as the pre-game hype built, refusing to buy used games ever again because I want all my money in your pockets and not a used game store’s, and following your Facebook and Twitter accounts as well as your website and YouTube channel. I was led to those other official sources of information through the forum. And yet, the forum seems to be the most “neglected” of the media sources you utilize. Obviously, somebody runs the website, the Twitter account, the Facebook account, the YouTube channel, and the blog in some sort of official capacity. But the forum feels a bit like a rudderless ship. News from those official sources oftentimes only shows up on the official forum when fans re-post the info. It’s like the forums exist and the fans largely run the show (which makes some sense, as we outnumber you by an extremely large margin; there will always be thousands more threads and posts by fans than by developers), but the only official presence are some faceless, numbered mods from what I’m guessing (perhaps wrongly) is an outsourced commodity. Occasionally some of the developers will volunteer their time to post, and that’s a mixed bag – sometimes people are nice and grateful for the information and other times people are complete and total dicks. Which often leads to the devs pulling back and then the fans grow restless and the cycle repeats itself over and over. Threads like this one, they make me weep inside: forum.bioware.com/topic/545013-bioware-i-feel-like-youre-avoiding-your-customers/It was started by a fan who I’ve always viewed as a good and positive one in the forums. The fact that he/she feels that way, and that many others echoed the feeling, is not a good situation. Now, that being said, the interaction as of late has vastly improved. Vastly. Many devs are now posting informational threads on upcoming events or patches. Some are bouncing around answering questions. The fact you grabbed some PC folks to help beta test Patch 5 is simply phenomenal, in my opinion. This is good. No, this is great. This is what one envisions seeing in an official forum. The sad part is that this sudden resurgence of interaction appears to have occurred because of a literal fan uprising in the DAIMP forum that involved a very public lynch mob against one of the few devs who voluntarily tried to interact and caught the worse end of the deal. Teddie Sage’s thread brings up an incredibly valid question: who is our Community Manager? Do we even have one? I had thought it was David Huleegard, but that doesn’t really seem to be the case as far as the forum goes. It was Chris Priestly once, and everyone on the forum knew this. Then it was Jessica Merizan, and, again, everyone on the forum knew this. Now both are gone elsewhere and we are left with literally zero clue. Who is running the forum in an official capacity? Is it even being run in an official capacity? If there is a Community Manager for the forum, they may want to revisit how it’s being run from the top down. Or, if there isn’t one, the absence is most certainly felt. If there is one, but their job is to focus on the other official modes of information dissemination, then perhaps it may be time to consider a second position devoted to the forum? Perhaps it seems much to saddle a forum as only one position, but I do understand the forum is a massive beast compared to running the other accounts, which are largely about dispersing information moreso than direct fan interaction on as intimate a level as a message board presents. I do not say all this to make anyone feel bad. I especially don’t say this to make any of the devs who do dedicate their own personal downtime to the forum feel as if they are not doing enough. Many of you know me well enough by now to know the depth of genuine love and respect I hold for you. And I have been there in the trenches, miserably watching as you get dogpiled sometimes. I know. I understand. But I recognize that you have your very unique dev perspective on the forum, while I have my own unique fan/user perspective on the forum. I say all this simply to try and express a fan’s view of the forum to you. That includes where it feels lacking and why. So, what are my thoughts on how we can try and improve this? How can we make a safe space for the devs to interact without fearing witch hunts and for fans to feel like they have a positive community to interact with, rather than a place that drives them away because of negativity and toxicity (a complaint I see on Twitter a lot, sadly, and occasionally still feel myself at times)? Let’s pretend we blew it all up, Anders Chantry-style, and started from the ground up again. I view maintaining a forum much like tending a garden. These are my three major guides: 1. You have to seed it properly and give it love and maintenance to grow good things. This means you need to have some type of presence in it – something regular, preferably, rather than in spouts and bursts dependent on mood and level of forum vitriol/happiness. Someone or several someones who regularly interact, even if that is maybe only once or twice a week and – this is important – spread equally across at least the most active subforums (i.e. giving more love and maintenance to the DAIMP forum may – and will, as I’ve seen grumblings – lead to dissent in other subforums, such as single player, who may feel neglected, ignored, cast aside, or less important than the multiplayer fans). 2. Weed regularly. There are a lot of troll accounts that exist only to raise people’s hackles and negative types who post the same copy-pasted complaint in every thread or make multiple threads across the forums to express their disdain… or, worse (in my opinion), only seem to exist to pop into any positive thread they see and immediately shit all over it. Please excuse the language on that, but there is truly no polite way to express how disgusting it is to see thread after thread started by a happy fan literally get shot down in the second or third post by one of the “resident whiners”. There is a fine line between someone expressing concern or a legitimate complaint about an issue they are having or a feature they dislike vs someone who appears to get their jollies by just being a Negative Nancy in as many threads as possible. Perhaps these simply aren’t being reported enough, but the weeds need to be pulled regularly. A thorny plant is fine and can be beneficial – after all, constructive criticism is how we all learn and grow, and there are plenty of fans capable of dispensing that in a civil manner – but the really bad or regularly bad ones need to be shown the door. These are, after all, your forums. You do not have to put up with a guest coming in and proceeding to lay a deuce on your fine Orlesian rug. 3. Maintain the mature plants while grooming the seedlings. This is just Business 101 no matter what you’re selling, whether it be newspaper ads or video games. You want and need to maintain your core (often hardcore, yes) customers while gaining news ones. After all, there is natural attrition as people move on to other games, become too busy to consider themselves gamers anymore, or otherwise leave the fandom and/or forum and you need fresh blood coming in to replace them and become your future “veterans”, while growing your overall baseline. This means patrolling subforums where the “newbies” are most likely to start their forum experience and making sure it’s a positive one (such as the general help subforum or the non-spoiler discussion one, as well as MP subforums where you’ll often see threads made by new players looking for help or advice). Nothing can be more off-putting than joining a forum and immediately getting assaulted by negativity. I saw that happen a few times in the ME3MP subforum and I made every effort to step in and tell people to chill out, and often would personally message the new person and apologize on behalf of us all. Made some friends and some new forum “veterans” from the experience, but I can only do so much. I am, after all, only one fan and I only have so much influence with my fellow fans – I am sure there are some who view me as just a “BioWare shill” or what have you. These guidelines sound pretty solid, right? They also sound like so much puffery from a self-help book or one of those “30,000-mile bird’s eye view of the situation” types of meetings that look great on the paper and maybe you leave them feeling good and motivated, but then you realize nothing REALLY got said or done. How do you take a lame analogy about a nice garden with pretty flowers and make steps to actually, really achieve that? I have a few thoughts on that front, too. You can take it or leave it or say, “Tiff, you’re out to lunch because you have no idea how our inner workings go down”… and you really can say that, you know, you’re not gonna hurt my feelings. I’m a forum “veteran”, after all, so my skin is Deep Roads-thick from mere survival. My only hope is that some part of this may be deemed a useful thought, if nothing else; a starting point for brainstorming. 1. Community moderators brought back or new ones enlisted? I remember back when we had named moderators, people like Ninja Stan (former employee, I know) or RaenImrahl. It seemed more personal and people tended to at least behave a little better if they felt like they “knew” the mods, even if they didn’t. Switching over to the BioWareModInsertNumberHere was a move that I understand from a bottom line and time management standpoint, but it raised a lot of discontent. And, honestly, it made things pretty awkward because I saw people and posts get temporarily banned/deleted because of an inside joke between friends getting taken totally out of context. Rules are important, but so is some level of leniency. Nobody wants to fear posting in a police state. Surely a good balance can be struck? After all, our own real life communities are monitored by the police who live among us, who know our community and are aware of “the usual suspects”. The original reason we were given for bringing the “faceless” mods in was that it would free the named moderators up to interact more with the community. Instead, they disappeared entirely. Perhaps a return to them or, at least, their heritage is one for consideration? Heavy forum users who are online a lot, who are familiar with the community, who have proven trustworthy (Hrungr and ElitePinecone immediately spring to mind as examples), who are in a lot of the threads every day. If they were empowered to redirect the flow of a hot topic thread or to warn a troublemaker, I think that would be immensely helpful. I think many posts or threads go unreported simply because people might not understand the report feature, they fear a full thread closure/deletion rather than one or two people/posts being moderated, or the general disdain of thinking themselves a “snitch”. Regular community members – empowered – could address such issues when they see them, rather than rely on hoping someone reports trouble while a thread festers more and more. 2. A moderator or developer assigned to each subforum or similar grouping of subforums? Maybe this is a bit much to ask of people who are already volunteering their limited time, but it may behoove considering. Of the devs who like and want to interact with the forum, perhaps they could all get together and organize themselves into a collective and segment certain parts of the forum out to “monitor” or “maintain” (preferably the ones they have a direct interest in, of course). For example, someone taking on the Dragon Age: Inquisition single player forums, someone taking the Dragon Age: Inquisition Romance/Character forums, someone taking the Dragon Age MP forums, someone taking the Mass Effect 3 single player forums, repeat previous examples, etc. That particular dev who has taken on a certain subforum or set of subforums would take it upon himself or herself to be responsible for stickied topics, providing general info such as an FAQ (if needed), a list of bugs being reviewed (if allowed to disclose), balance changes, hints at upcoming content (as allowed and if allowed, of course), announcement of weekend challenges/insider videos/livestreams, etc. If it’s worthy of being posted on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, or as a news update on the website or the blog, it’s worthy of being posted on the appropriate subforum. These are the official forums, after all. 3. If that’s not feasible, could “Community Collectors” be a viable option? Good forumites like myself, Hrungr, ElitePinecone, etc. that could be given some type of displayed status showing we have a semi-official capacity forum-wise (a step below moderator?), who can collect the hottest topics/issues and maybe submit a weekly report/inquiry to a designated dev liaison? That could help to give the forum answers/some “official” dev presence without asking the devs themselves to stick their necks out on their free time. Let us take on some of your burden and help funnel the most important issues, if need be. You need not shoulder this alone. Let some of your “super users” help with the task. I am sure many would see it as a great honor. 4. Create surveys for folks to provide real feedback they feel is actually viewed? Like the Keep team did during the Beta. Because having a Feedback subforum specifically for “Want to get your thoughts directly to the BioWare Community Team? Put it down on paper here” and then nothing happens in there save for faceless mods locking threads is just… it’s quite possibly the most neglected subforum and in that there is an irony I cannot quite describe given what its intended purpose was for. Is that subforum even being looked at? By anyone? That one should perhaps get the most attention out of any since that is what its stated purpose is. 5. Community Manager – maybe this needs to be extended to a second person, if the current role is too much for just one to handle? And that very well could be (I know I said that before earlier in my ramblings, but I feel it deserves repeating). I will leave this rather long-winded dissertation on these final thoughts: I remember David Huleegard blogging about a “Day in the Life of a Community Manager” a long while back, how much coordination with the various teams that entailed, but I saw a lot of mention about YouTube videos, the Twitter account, and the Facebook account. And experimenting with Instagram. No real mention of the official forums. At all. Which is as perplexing as it is a bit disturbing, honestly. These aren’t unofficial fan forums. These aren’t a random place on the Internet or a subforum on some random gaming site. These are your official forums. When people who have bought your games go online to find info – be it general discussion or tech help or “how do I solve this quest, help, I am stuck” – the BioWare forum comes up basically at the top of the organic Google search engine. That’s money. People spend a lot on search engine optimization to rise that high in Google searches, and that money doesn’t guarantee the kind of positioning you already have (I know this for a fact because I sell this in my daily job). So, naturally, customers searching see that result link near the top and go there. Only to see some praise, a lot of bitching, some help, and very little of anything official. It’s an untended garden. There are weeds everywhere and a newcomer has no idea where to look other than to be overwhelmed (maybe some type of “Welcome to the Official BioWare Forums” introductory forum or stickied thread at the top of the forum giving further direction/outlining the subforums, etc). That’s how I started my forum life. I took my knocks from trolls and persevered because I’m hard-headed and resilient like that, but new forumites need not have to go through the same. I’d like to think that the public forum is not beyond hope of saving. It just needs a little extra help and, in my opinion, a unified guiding force, such as a Community Manager. If this is not something deserving of an official BioWare employee, surely it’s deserving of a dedicated fan volunteer, group of fan volunteers, or something. Let’s work together to make a forum that represents your company and games in the brightest light and provides a safe place for fans to gather and talk, both with the developers and amongst themselves. Hey, I think I remember this! Will reread later, got to eat Sad they didn't take it seriously, and sadder they pretended they would. I've seen that kind of thing a lot. Companies pretending your thoughts matter to them.
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DragonRacer
Administrator
BSN Jesus
My Mattock brings all the boys to the yard...
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: DragonRacer
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: DragonRacer13
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Post by DragonRacer on Aug 19, 2016 19:08:02 GMT
What does a content manager do? It sounds like the guy who herds the writers... I have no earthly idea, but my assumption would be that he helps collect and coordinate the marketing content that goes out (such as work on YouTube trailers, collecting concept art and maybe a few quotes from artists/writers for blog posts, that type of thing). Content manager puts the goodies together and community manager actually disperses them out into the world via their social media accounts? I don't think the forums are his Job. Seems more to do with the books and stuff and I think he mentioned the social media accounts. The sad thing is, back when he actually WAS the Community Manager and made an entire blog post about what that job entails, the forums were not mentioned at all. Amazing: A Day in the Life of a Community Manager
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Aug 19, 2016 19:46:33 GMT
After I found out how little the BioMods are paid ($8.55/hour), I lost all desire to mess with them. I'm pretty sure that the BioMods are simply shells that the worker bees log into, likely with no consistency as to personnel. So Suzy may be BioMod02 one day and Biff the next. I don't like how Bioware has handled this. I don't like the ModSquad. Their website makes them sound like terminal douches, but the workers I feel sorry for. They are doing a job that is difficult at best for little money and no rewards. It would be great if they unionized, but that isn't very likely. I understand what you're saying, but it won't change my attitude towards them, I don't think. They should and could still have done a much better and more consistent job moderating than they did, even with a crappy wage. Or maybe I'm just expecting too much professional integrity And I'll still send PMs asking for clarification and calling them out for not making sense and being unfair. I mean, that wage sucks, but it's hard for me to feel that sorry for them when they are either not even trying to trying way, way too hard. Also, where are they outsourced from? Because that's quite a bit below minimum wage where I'm from, in Canada. If they are hiring in the US, $8.55 US is approximately $11 Canadian, which is just about minimum wage for a lot of Canada. I get why someone would want the job. They offer flexible hours and you work from home. According to the reviews on Glass Door, they also don't really train the mods.
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DragonRacer
Administrator
BSN Jesus
My Mattock brings all the boys to the yard...
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: DragonRacer
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: DragonRacer13
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Post by DragonRacer on Aug 19, 2016 19:55:23 GMT
Shocking. SHOCKING, I SAY. I would have never imagined this to be so, given the absolutely commendable attitude, utmost professionalism, and impressive consistency in rule enforcement they exude.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 19, 2016 20:09:16 GMT
I've already mentioned it here, but I'd love to be there for the final hours. Preferably together with those other people who care. Not for trolling or spamming or something, just to say the very last goodbyes bfore the RO. It's like holding a hand of a dying man, if you know what I mean. I can't say I hate them, but I feel cheated. I know there were people who cared (like Allan, who helped even when he did not even have to be there), and as Evil as Chris had been, I missed him. I didn't get a goodbye, but I did get a thank you from a fellow poster
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 20, 2016 11:58:49 GMT
I was sad and worried at first but this place is coming out so nicely that I don't go to BSN Prime anymore. The only thing we are missing is Sylvius the Mad and a thread about silent protagonist vs voiced, then this place will be complete * ahem * Sylvius was seen entering the building... Let's get that silent vs voiced thread started...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 15:38:19 GMT
I am toying with writing 'friend fic' that stars the BioBots. BioMod05 is already in leather chaps. I'm just not sure how to dial it in. The BW forums have always been family friendly, so I think it will have to be PG-13 at most. And it may not happen at all. *in my best Joker voice*
Take pictures.
Shocking. SHOCKING, I SAY. I would have never imagined this to be so, given the absolutely commendable attitude, utmost professionalism, and impressive consistency in rule enforcement they exude. *in my best EDI voice*
That ... was a joke.
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N3
Playing a lot of Divinity Original Sin 2
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Post by Kantr on Aug 20, 2016 16:57:36 GMT
Anyone else bored of the closing ?
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 20, 2016 17:44:17 GMT
Reading about you guys getting so many warnings...you've convinced me. They're expecting a shit show and are trying to weed out all the 'trouble makers' beforehand. Trying my level best to be fair (and having a tiny insight into moderation these last 3 weeks). What I suspect has happened is that the decision to close the forums has naturally led to an anticipation that some will try to 'burn it down' before the end. That was no surprise and was one of my first expectations after the announcement, that the ending could be rough. I don't expect that there has been any edict to be tough on people, but I could quite expect that the moderation company were alerted to the closure (naturally) and that moderators are moderating hard to 'nip things in the bud' in the expectation of the trouble that might be brewing. In short, the 'guards' are on high alert, and low-level cheek that might normally get waved through is being jumped on, hard. So I kind of understand what's happening and why.
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Aug 20, 2016 17:54:34 GMT
Reading about you guys getting so many warnings...you've convinced me. They're expecting a shit show and are trying to weed out all the 'trouble makers' beforehand. Trying my level best to be fair (and having a tiny insight into moderation these last 3 weeks). What I suspect has happened is that the decision to close the forums has naturally led to an anticipation that some will try to 'burn it down' before the end. That was no surprise and was one of my first expectations after the announcement, that the ending could be rough. I don't expect that there has been any edict to be tough on people, but I could quite expect that the moderation company were alerted to the closure (naturally) and that moderators are moderating hard to 'nip things in the bud' in the expectation of the trouble that might be brewing. In short, the 'guards' are on high alert, and low-level cheek that might normally get waved through is being jumped on, hard. So I kind of understand what's happening and why. I think you are probably right. I've been trying to decide what, if anything, I should do to mark the last day. Since we do not know when the plug will be pulled, I'm leaning towards having a gin and tonic.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 20, 2016 18:13:00 GMT
I'm assuming August 25th will be the last day, as BioWare will pull the plug as soon as they can justify it being midnight.
I can't be angry anymore. I made around 6,000 posts and had a lot of fun.
I'll be popping by for memories and kittens (and to drop breadcrumbs back here).
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Post by General Mahad on Aug 20, 2016 18:57:34 GMT
I'll be trolling the forums like a G.
Nothing too awful just pointing how BioWare is a laughing-stock of a game developer.
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PATPATPATlol
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patpatpatlol
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Post by PATPATPATlol on Aug 20, 2016 19:55:16 GMT
I have already forgotten that BSN prime existed because I've been enjoying my time here so much.
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Apr 27, 2024 23:55:22 GMT
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General Mahad
You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
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August 2016
vaas
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Post by General Mahad on Aug 20, 2016 20:03:39 GMT
I have already forgotten that BSN prime existed because I've been enjoying my time here so much. Word, the relaxed atmosphere of this place makes me want to contribute to its success instead of trying to bash and troll people. Can't say the same about the BioWare Forums.
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Furisco
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August 2016
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Post by Furisco on Aug 21, 2016 0:16:21 GMT
What we'll do won't matter. They can delete what they want and even edit our posts to make us look dumb xD
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DragonKingReborn
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August 2016
dragonkingreborn
http://bsn.boards.net/threads/recent/143
https://i.imgur.com/1myVt9D.jpg
DragonKingReborn
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 21, 2016 3:37:36 GMT
I won't be participating in any forum burning (although I won't judge those that choose to), but I might sneak in to observe. I was just over there - first time since last weekend - and some of them are trying to claim their posts on a public forum are copyrighted material.
#shitgotweirdrealfast
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DragonKingReborn
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dragonkingreborn
http://bsn.boards.net/threads/recent/143
https://i.imgur.com/1myVt9D.jpg
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 21, 2016 3:43:47 GMT
I'll add that the whole thing is a little sad.
I first found the forums in 2003 as I was looking for advice with KOTOR and over time it evolved to be a nearly - and often, actually - daily stop.
Other than post release for DA2, I never saw the toxicity that everyone said was rampant there. Maybe I just went to the wrong sections or maybe I'm a bit clueless on that sort of thing. Regardless, over the last few years, it has changed. I still haven't seen much in the way of the toxic nature it is supposed to have, but it was certainly a lot less fun and welcoming.
This place is much, much better.
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Daemion
N3
Probably NSFW
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: DaemionMoadrin
Posts: 518 Likes: 1,457
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Daemion
Probably NSFW
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August 2016
daemion
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
DaemionMoadrin
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Post by Daemion on Aug 21, 2016 6:16:12 GMT
The mods don't make any sense.
I got banned for 48h because I complained about my posts being deleted. Now my ban is over, the post that got me banned has been deleted... but the original three are back. Oo
What is happening? Are the mods bi-polar?
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