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Post by Catilina on Sept 19, 2016 22:17:33 GMT
Yes, nobody is perfect but that consitutes a lot more than a little flaw. We don't say people like Joseph Stalin or Osama Bin Laden are just people with some little flaws. You skipped the Nazis...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 19, 2016 22:19:56 GMT
Yes, nobody is perfect but that consitutes a lot more than a little flaw. We don't say people like Joseph Stalin or Osama Bin Laden are just people with some little flaws. You skipped the Nazis... I knew if I added them, you'd say that is more like the Templars or some such nonsense. I noticed you didn't answer.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 19, 2016 22:24:38 GMT
I knew if I added them, you'd say that is more like the Templars or some such nonsense. as Stalin? or Osama?
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Post by xerrai on Sept 19, 2016 23:30:06 GMT
It's kind of weird though. From a certain standpoint and without meta-knowledge, going after the mages regardless of their condition is favored with how they are the most reliable, if not the only known option, to seal the breach. Templars were only a theoretical approach that no one really knew would work. At the beginning of the game, the idea that Templars could help seal the breach was regarded as "pure speculation" that might not even work. Even Cassandra scoffed at the idea of using Templars because it such a theoretical solution (*sigh* "we need power commander...") that she wasn't willing to put too much faith in. So unless you were willing to take a rather huge risk that the Templars simply couldn't seal the breach, mages were by far the safer option. That the Templars sealed the breach at all was a fortunate turn of luck. The Mages sealing the Breach was also luck. They Inquisition knew almost nothing about how the Mark worked when they made their decision. Its an absolute miracle that shoving a shit ton of magic into it didn't just make it go out of control and kill the Inquisitor before they could seal the Breach, or just explode and make things worse. Neither faction came with any guarantee of sealing the breach beyond the game requiring them to do it, and lets be frank, historically Templars have been better at suppressing magic than Mages have. Yes the Templars were hypothetical, but the only reason the Mage's weren't considered the same is because Solas was the one who suggested that the Mark would need more power to seal the breach, hence Mages. Leliana being the strongest advocate for supporting the Mages did nothing for me because it was clear she was biased in her support of them due extenuating circumstances. As my character was a Mage I had no reason to trust Lele's assessment on Magic, since she is neither a Mage or specializes in Magical research. If Solas had been more open about his knowledge of the Anchor (which he was NEVER going to be), then I would agree with you that the Mages were the safe call, but from the information available to the Inquisitor and the Inner Council at the time the decision had to be made ... there was no such certainty. Not to mention even if the Templars were always an equally viable solution to the Breach, I doubt Solas would have ever suggested them considering his opinions about them and what they do. As I said, without metaknowledge (anything pertaining to Solas's true nature, knowing anything on Leliana) favors the mages as a solution. If you include metaknowledge it becomes a whole other ballgame. Even if you take Leliana out of the equation (and Cullen has some very serious bias himself), Cullen still has to contend with Cassandra who likely sought counsel with at least one expert on magic. At best, both were throwing their 2 cents out there with no evidence to back either of them up. At worst, it was Cassandra's reluctant backing of the mage solution after seeking counsel vs Cullen's "I was a Templar. I know what they're capable of" which was backed primarily by faith (it's kind of ironic how Cassandra didn't support it on that basis). What they were seeking to do was not so much "repress the breach", so much it was "enhance the mark". If they could close the rift without the mark then the Inquisitor wouldn't be needed. Just a ton of lyrium and Templars. But no, the mark was the only way to seal the breach, and that mark was fueled by an unknown magic. Not exactly something you want to repress seeing as how it is their only hope. [Not to mention Solas probably didn't have anything like the Templars back in ancient Arlathan. We only recently figured out in trespasser that they had wide access to lyrium and they used it for....lyrium springs, I guess (near coffins, if what Cole said is to be taken literally). Not to mention how anything like Templar techniques likely wouldn't work anything like they do in modern Thedas because of how fade and reality were merged. Solas had to likely filter what he knew vs. what could still feasibly be done in this day and age--and that's assuming he was hiding information regarding it the mark's enhancement at all. We currently have nothing concrete to back this claim up.]
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 20, 2016 3:03:36 GMT
Didnt the tabletop rpg say Templar abilities dispel all magic, regardless of whether it is friendly or not? That would affect choice
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Post by xerrai on Sept 20, 2016 3:12:57 GMT
Didnt the tabletop rpg say Templar abilities dispel all magic, regardless of whether it is friendly or not? That would affect choice I think the Dispel ability in DAI also operates in the same principle. However, game mechanics may or may not necessarily be canon as lore is concerned (but most often not). So I guess it depends on if it is considered canon or not.
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Post by Prince on Sept 20, 2016 21:05:09 GMT
I was a mage and I allied with the Templars. To be honest, the game doesn't give you enough information to make an informed choice on anything other than 'Who do you think would be most useful in closing the breach' terms..It gives you only the slightest hint of the nuances behind this conflict, and you never really have a proper conversation about this with anyone, except maybe Vivienne (but that's basically just her saying 'No, you're wrong and I'm right'). They don't even make it clear until well into the game (and ages after the conflict has ended) that the Tranquility reversal thing was the reason for the rebellion. Vivienne certainly never mentions that, and she's pretty much the only person to talk about it until Cassandra's personal quest. But anyway, basically my character never agreed with the rebellion (and just for myself, I just don't think that this is how it would go - the idea that Mages couldn't simply say 'We didn't vote Yes, so we'll just stay in the Circle, thanks' seems very odd). But I digress again. My character supports the Circle, but feels it needs some reforms. Basically everything Cassandra says in this game mirrors my opinions - on all topics really (its quite frightening actually - she basically says nothing that I don't 100% agree with during the whole game! ) So my character agreed with Vivienne and Cassandra that the Circles needed to be restored, the Templars were not evil and were just doing their job and should be allowed (with subtle reforms to their mandate) to resume their position, and that the rebellion ultimately served no purpose. The Mages had no support from either the nobility, clergy or the common folk and therefore what was the point in creating such utter chaos, especially when the vote to leave had been so close (i.e a great many mages do not support the cause themselves). There *are* legitimate grievances to address, and the Circle, Templars and Chantry *do* need reform, but demonizing either side is not the way. Therefore, compromise is the only true solution. Hence the Conclave, which I also support. After that failed, and the breach appeared, the conflict was not the most important thing to be dwelling on. My character did want to enlist the mages too, but the foolish deal that Fiona had made with the Tevinters was highly suspicious. With Alexius apparently able to control time magic, I felt Leliana and Dorian's plans were a little flimsy, given our lack of hard information on his capabilities and the small numbers of troops we could smuggle in. There was no way of knowing if Alexius knew already about the windwill secret passage also. Therefore, I resolved that enlisting the Templars would kill 2 birds with 1 stone - they could help against the breach, and combat Alexius' time magic if needs be. I was warned there probably wouldn't be enough time to save both, so my character felt she had to base her decision on who would be most useful in closing the breach (which to me is clearly the Templars given their anti magic powers and expertise in fighting demons - I can close the breach, but I wouldn't mind a battalion of beefy warriors keeping the demons from eating me as I do so), and just hope that the Mages could be saved later by my and the Ferelden army's forces. My character was disappointed that so many of the mages joined the Venatori, but they made their choice. I was careful in the War Room to handle business involving rebel mages sensitively, trying to get them to surrender quietly and integrate them into the Inquisition whilst we worked on how to get the Circles restored. Barras leads the Templars well, and strikes a good balance between helping those who simply in over their heads to come along quietly, and dealing promptly and decisively with the real nutcases. Lastly, I tried to promote my Inquisition's belief that we could all get along here. So I had a Chantry garden to show we weren't some heretics with our own agenda, a fighting arena to show we were serious about restoring order and keeping the peace, and a Mage's Tower to show that magic was by no means considered obscene or unwelcome in my Inquisition.
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Post by Prince on Sept 20, 2016 21:30:43 GMT
It's kind of weird though. From a certain standpoint and without meta-knowledge, going after the mages regardless of their condition is favored with how they are the most reliable, if not the only known option, to seal the breach. Templars were only a theoretical approach that no one really knew would work. At the beginning of the game, the idea that Templars could help seal the breach was regarded as "pure speculation" that might not even work. Even Cassandra scoffed at the idea of using Templars because it such a theoretical solution (*sigh* "we need power commander...") that she wasn't willing to put too much faith in. So unless you were willing to take a rather huge risk that the Templars simply couldn't seal the breach, mages were by far the safer option. That the Templars sealed the breach at all was a fortunate turn of luck Attacking someone who can use Time Control magic when you have *no* defence against it is absurd All of this was predicted by Cullen, and he was right. By sheer good fortune, the spell places you in a position from where you can reverse it, but there is no way you could have banked on any such glorious good fortune.So yeha if you are gonna say that templars being able to help to close the breach was a fortunate turn of luck you should say at the very least the same for the mages questline.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2016 21:31:29 GMT
I was a mage and I allied with the Templars. To be honest, the game doesn't give you enough information to make an informed choice on anything other than 'Who do you think would be most useful in closing the breach' terms..It gives you only the slightest hint of the nuances behind this conflict, and you never really have a proper conversation about this with anyone, except maybe Vivienne (but that's basically just her saying 'No, you're wrong and I'm right'). They don't even make it clear until well into the game (and ages after the conflict has ended) that the Tranquility reversal thing was the reason for the rebellion. Vivienne certainly never mentions that, and she's pretty much the only person to talk about it until Cassandra's personal quest. [...] Leliana and Cassandra suggested the mages when they arrived to Haven. Only Cullen was with the Templars, but he is biased, so: his opinion less matter.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 20, 2016 21:49:56 GMT
I was a mage and I allied with the Templars. To be honest, the game doesn't give you enough information to make an informed choice on anything other than 'Who do you think would be most useful in closing the breach' terms..It gives you only the slightest hint of the nuances behind this conflict, and you never really have a proper conversation about this with anyone, except maybe Vivienne (but that's basically just her saying 'No, you're wrong and I'm right'). They don't even make it clear until well into the game (and ages after the conflict has ended) that the Tranquility reversal thing was the reason for the rebellion. Vivienne certainly never mentions that, and she's pretty much the only person to talk about it until Cassandra's personal quest. [...] Leliana and Cassandra suggested the mages when they arrived to Haven. Only Cullen was with the Templars, but he is biased, so: his opinion less matter. Not to mention that out of all the classes, a human mage is probably the class that is least likely to go to the templars. First off, the human mage backstory makes it clear that regardless of whether you supported the rebellion or not, the templars were going to kill you regardless merely for being a mage. That shouldn't endear the templars to a human mage. Furthermore, a human mage likely has friends among their fellow mages regardless of their views. Even if you are a circle supporting mage, you see plenty of loyalists in Redcliffe and considering that Vivienne's loyalists can't close the breach, it's definitely likely that the majority of the loyalists are with the rebel mages. Even if you are a circle supporting, are you okay with condemning your fellow loyalists into slavery and blood sacrifice merely for Fiona's stupidity? In addition, when you get to Val Royeaux, the templars straight up call all the templars who joined the Inquisition TRAITORS merely for working alongside a mage. If that's not enough, if you decide to recruit the templars they openly complain that they aren't killing mages. Why would a circle mage choose to help out the faction that a while ago would have never hesitated to murder you and is openly complaining they aren't killing people like you while abandoning your friends to slavery and blood sacrifice?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2016 21:56:20 GMT
Leliana and Cassandra suggested the mages when they arrived to Haven. Only Cullen was with the Templars, but he is biased, so: his opinion less matter. Not to mention that out of all the classes, a human mage is probably the class that is least likely to go to the templars. First off, the human mage backstory makes it clear that regardless of whether you supported the rebellion or not, the templars were going to kill you regardless merely for being a mage. That shouldn't endear the templars to a human mage. Furthermore, a human mage likely has friends among their fellow mages regardless of their views. Even if you are a circle supporting mage, you see plenty of loyalists in Redcliffe and considering that Vivienne's loyalists can't close the breach, it's definitely likely that the majority of the loyalists are with the rebel mages. Even if you are a circle supporting, are you okay with condemning your fellow loyalists into slavery and blood sacrifice merely for Fiona's stupidity? In addition, when you get to Val Royeaux, the templars straight up call all the templars who joined the Inquisition TRAITORS merely for working alongside a mage. If that's not enough, if you decide to recruit the templars they openly complain that they aren't killing mages. Why would a circle mage choose to help out the faction that a while ago would have never hesitated to murder you and is openly complaining they aren't killing people like you while abandoning your friends to slavery and blood sacrifice? This is right, Just so many times I said similar things, I already bored from myself Perhaps later again ...
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 20, 2016 21:59:10 GMT
Attacking someone who can use Time Control magic when you have *no* defence against it is absurd All of this was predicted by Cullen, and he was right. By sheer good fortune, the spell places you in a position from where you can reverse it, but there is no way you could have banked on any such glorious good fortune.So yeha if you are gonna say that templars being able to help to close the breach was a fortunate turn of luck you should say at the very least the same for the mages questline. And if it wasn't for Cole, envy would have killed and possessed you.
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Post by Prince on Sept 20, 2016 22:04:53 GMT
Leliana and Cassandra suggested the mages when they arrived to Haven. Only Cullen was with the Templars, but he is biased, so: his opinion less matter. Not to mention that out of all the classes, a human mage is probably the class that is least likely to go to the templars. First off, the human mage backstory makes it clear that regardless of whether you supported the rebellion or not, the templars were going to kill you regardless merely for being a mage. That shouldn't endear the templars to a human mage. Furthermore, a human mage likely has friends among their fellow mages regardless of their views. Even if you are a circle supporting mage, you see plenty of loyalists in Redcliffe and considering that Vivienne's loyalists can't close the breach, it's definitely likely that the majority of the loyalists are with the rebel mages. Even if you are a circle supporting, are you okay with condemning your fellow loyalists into slavery and blood sacrifice merely for Fiona's stupidity? In addition, when you get to Val Royeaux, the templars straight up call all the templars who joined the Inquisition TRAITORS merely for working alongside a mage. If that's not enough, if you decide to recruit the templars they openly complain that they aren't killing mages. Why would a circle mage choose to help out the faction that a while ago would have never hesitated to murder you and is openly complaining they aren't killing people like you while abandoning your friends to slavery and blood sacrifice? There's really no reason why any mage should feel obliged to side with other mages, any more than Varric should be loyal to Orzammar or Solas should join the Dalish. Having one thing in common, even a big thing, doesn't automatically make them "your people". Not punishing mages who are known to be guilty of crimes? I know some mage supporters seem to think that the mages deserve a free pass for resembling whatever real life parallel they want them to, but saying they should immune to the law...
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2016 22:07:12 GMT
There's really no reason why any mage should feel obliged to side with other mages, any more than Varric should be loyal to Orzammar or Solas should join the Dalish. Having one thing in common, even a big thing, doesn't automatically make them "your people". The reason is that s/he never will change, and the Templars will never accept him/her. According their viewpoint s/he just a monster, like other mages.
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Post by secretrare on Sept 20, 2016 22:13:07 GMT
Leliana and Cassandra suggested the mages when they arrived to Haven. Only Cullen was with the Templars, but he is biased, so: his opinion less matter. and is openly complaining they aren't killing people like you while abandoning your friends to slavery and blood sacrifice? And some of the mages can't wait to sail off to Tevinter to live a life where they rule over muggles. So what? One size does not fit all.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 20, 2016 22:18:56 GMT
Attacking someone who can use Time Control magic when you have *no* defence against it is absurd All of this was predicted by Cullen, and he was right. By sheer good fortune, the spell places you in a position from where you can reverse it, but there is no way you could have banked on any such glorious good fortune.So yeha if you are gonna say that templars being able to help to close the breach was a fortunate turn of luck you should say at the very least the same for the mages questline. Yeah ... how exactly did the Mages help against Alexius again? How did they do anything to stop what happened or Alexius himself? Last I checked the Inquisitor attacks Alexius, they vanish from that timeline, and the Mages adhere to their deal to stay slaves ... and end the world. If the Inquisitor hadn't gotten lucky again and managed to find their way back, then the Mages did literally nothing. In fact ... they did worse than nothing, they actively helped Corypheus! They don't even have the same excuse for doing so that the Templars did either. At least those big muscle bound idiots were drugged and corrupted without their knowledge or consent. The Rebel Mages ... just fell victim to really bad judgement on their part. If you know what Templars are technically capable of then yes theoretically they should be able to suppress the Breach enough for the Inquisitor to finish the job. The inner circle was equally lucky that pouring raw Magical energy into the mark didn't just kill the Inquisitor right then and there. They were equally lucky that the Inquisitor was able to handle that additional magic and not simply make the situation much much worse. Either way, regardless of faction, a hypothesis was followed, and then it paid off. Solas is the only reason that people assume the Mages are the better option out of hand, and even he didn't outright say get the Mages, he said "We'll need more power to seal the Breach". Lele is the major Pro-Mage advocate and she is neither a mage nor an expert on Magic, so why should I believe anything she says on the matter? On the other hand Cullen is the pro-Templar advocate and both was a Templar and has a perfect understanding of what they are capable of. Both suggestions are theoretical, only one comes from a person with a complete understanding of how their suggested faction's powers work. As for attacking Alexius, this type of situation is literally what the Templars are for. They are there to suppress magic and deny its potency and existence, so maybe ... just maybe, the Inquisitor and Dorian don't get caught in the Time Magic spell at all. Hell, here's a thought, if you do the first part of "Hushed Whispers" we know Alexius is after the PC even before deciding to finish the quest. How bout we send the Templar and Inquisition forces into Redcliffe Castle to do their thing and the "soon to be Inquisitor" stays outside and helps with the evacuation in case something goes wrong? Wouldn't that solve the problem? If the war table op for Maevaris proves anything its that the Mages of Tevinter due to their long ago neutering of their own Templars, are not prepared to handle real genuine, lyrium chugging, boss monster southern Templars. We sent a small squad of them into Tevinter to help her out and they just wrecked. They ripped through their opponents like it was nothing. Alexius should be no different in this regard. He has never had to battle with his Magic being actively suppressed by a large group of Templars, especially when he his most powerful spell is so innately dependent on the weakening of the Veil caused by he Breach to even use. That is the Templar's only trick, they strengthen the shit of the Veil in the surrounding area ... something tells me they wouldn't have that much of an issue smashing that old fool.
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Post by secretrare on Sept 20, 2016 22:49:25 GMT
Attacking someone who can use Time Control magic when you have *no* defence against it is absurd All of this was predicted by Cullen, and he was right. By sheer good fortune, the spell places you in a position from where you can reverse it, but there is no way you could have banked on any such glorious good fortune.So yeha if you are gonna say that templars being able to help to close the breach was a fortunate turn of luck you should say at the very least the same for the mages questline. The inner circle was equally lucky that pouring raw Magical energy into the mark didn't just kill the Inquisitor right then and there. This game generally speaking is only about twists of luck.. The mages channeling their magic into the anchor could had just as easly make the Inquisitor's hand explode like a firework.
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Post by secretrare on Sept 20, 2016 22:52:44 GMT
And if it wasn't for Cole, envy would have killed and possessed you. I wouldn't be so sure about that, a demon is a pretty common deal unlike a mage who can use time travel.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 20, 2016 23:27:03 GMT
Not to mention that out of all the classes, a human mage is probably the class that is least likely to go to the templars. First off, the human mage backstory makes it clear that regardless of whether you supported the rebellion or not, the templars were going to kill you regardless merely for being a mage. That shouldn't endear the templars to a human mage. Furthermore, a human mage likely has friends among their fellow mages regardless of their views. Even if you are a circle supporting mage, you see plenty of loyalists in Redcliffe and considering that Vivienne's loyalists can't close the breach, it's definitely likely that the majority of the loyalists are with the rebel mages. Even if you are a circle supporting, are you okay with condemning your fellow loyalists into slavery and blood sacrifice merely for Fiona's stupidity? In addition, when you get to Val Royeaux, the templars straight up call all the templars who joined the Inquisition TRAITORS merely for working alongside a mage. If that's not enough, if you decide to recruit the templars they openly complain that they aren't killing mages. Why would a circle mage choose to help out the faction that a while ago would have never hesitated to murder you and is openly complaining they aren't killing people like you while abandoning your friends to slavery and blood sacrifice? There's really no reason why any mage should feel obliged to side with other mages, any more than Varric should be loyal to Orzammar or Solas should join the Dalish. Having one thing in common, even a big thing, doesn't automatically make them "your people". Not punishing mages who are known to be guilty of crimes? I know some mage supporters seem to think that the mages deserve a free pass for resembling whatever real life parallel they want them to, but saying they should immune to the law... Your analogy falls apart because one, Varric is a surface dwarf and thus didn't grow up in Orzammar. If he did, he would care more about Orzammar, and Solas is a whole mess of things considering he's an ancient elf. You're forgetting that a human mage was raised in the Circle. How are other circle mages not fellow mages, especially those who happen to share your same views in the fraternities? You don't think it's curious that a human mage is the only mage that can't say they don't have a connection to the rebels to Fiona? Also, you're forgetting that the templars did in fact try to kill you regardless of your opinions. Do you think that if your human mage survived the Conclave without the Anchor, the templars would have ever hesitated about killing you? Why not help rescue fellow loyalist mages instead of going to the people that were trying to kill you and who if you try to recruit openly complain that they're stuck in a fort instead of killing mages. Also, where did my post imply mages shouldn't be punished for crimes or do you just feel like strawmanning my points?
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 20, 2016 23:40:30 GMT
Attacking someone who can use Time Control magic when you have *no* defence against it is absurd All of this was predicted by Cullen, and he was right. By sheer good fortune, the spell places you in a position from where you can reverse it, but there is no way you could have banked on any such glorious good fortune.So yeha if you are gonna say that templars being able to help to close the breach was a fortunate turn of luck you should say at the very least the same for the mages questline. Yeah ... how exactly did the Mages help against Alexius again? How did they do anything to stop what happened or Alexius himself? Last I checked the Inquisitor attacks Alexius, they vanish from that timeline, and the Mages adhere to their deal to stay slaves ... and end the world. If the Inquisitor hadn't gotten lucky again and managed to find their way back, then the Mages did literally nothing. In fact ... they did worse than nothing, they actively helped Corypheus! They don't even have the same excuse for doing so that the Templars did either. At least those big muscle bound idiots were drugged and corrupted without their knowledge or consent. The Rebel Mages ... just fell victim to really bad judgement on their part. If you know what Templars are technically capable of then yes theoretically they should be able to suppress the Breach enough for the Inquisitor to finish the job. The inner circle was equally lucky that pouring raw Magical energy into the mark didn't just kill the Inquisitor right then and there. They were equally lucky that the Inquisitor was able to handle that additional magic and not simply make the situation much much worse. Either way, regardless of faction, a hypothesis was followed, and then it paid off. Solas is the only reason that people assume the Mages are the better option out of hand, and even he didn't outright say get the Mages, he said "We'll need more power to seal the Breach". Lele is the major Pro-Mage advocate and she is neither a mage nor an expert on Magic, so why should I believe anything she says on the matter? On the other hand Cullen is the pro-Templar advocate and both was a Templar and has a perfect understanding of what they are capable of. Both suggestions are theoretical, only one comes from a person with a complete understanding of how their suggested faction's powers work. As for attacking Alexius, this type of situation is literally what the Templars are for. They are there to suppress magic and deny its potency and existence, so maybe ... just maybe, the Inquisitor and Dorian don't get caught in the Time Magic spell at all. Hell, here's a thought, if you do the first part of "Hushed Whispers" we know Alexius is after the PC even before deciding to finish the quest. How bout we send the Templar and Inquisition forces into Redcliffe Castle to do their thing and the "soon to be Inquisitor" stays outside and helps with the evacuation in case something goes wrong? Wouldn't that solve the problem? If the war table op for Maevaris proves anything its that the Mages of Tevinter due to their long ago neutering of their own Templars, are not prepared to handle real genuine, lyrium chugging, boss monster southern Templars. We sent a small squad of them into Tevinter to help her out and they just wrecked. They ripped through their opponents like it was nothing. Alexius should be no different in this regard. He has never had to battle with his Magic being actively suppressed by a large group of Templars, especially when he his most powerful spell is so innately dependent on the weakening of the Veil caused by he Breach to even use. That is the Templar's only trick, they strengthen the shit of the Veil in the surrounding area ... something tells me they wouldn't have that much of an issue smashing that old fool. Did you forget that Josephine and Cassandra both advocate going to the mages. Heck, Cassandra's quotes shows she's biased against the mages yet she still also advocates that the mages are the way to go. Plus, Cassandra also nullifies magic so her advocating for going to the mages means something. Also, did you forget that the Inquisition already has templars in it prior to choosing a side? How do you know those troops your brought to deal with Alexius aren't templars? Plus, did you completely forget that IHW war table briefing outright saying why a direct attack wouldn't work? Here's why: Redcliffe Castle is an incredibly defensible fortress so a direct assault likely wouldn't work. This is proven in the bad future which outright says the entire Inquisition and Fereldan army tried to siege Redcliffe Castle and were beaten and didn't even make it inside. Plus, Josephine outright says that even if you could assault the castle, the Inquisition's attack would be seen as an Orlesian attack and would start a war with Ferelden so even if you got the templars and the Venatori didn't leave, a direct assault still wouldn't because you'd probably start a war with Ferelden. That's a moot point considering the mages disappear if you decide to get the templars which your advisors straight up tell you. Seriously, am I the only one who actually remembers that bit?
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 20, 2016 23:45:03 GMT
And if it wasn't for Cole, envy would have killed and possessed you. I wouldn't be so sure about that, a demon is a pretty common deal unlike a mage who can use time travel. What proof do you have that the Inquisitor could have stopped envy's possession attempt without Cole? Envy's questions always helped envy regardless of what your response was. Cole was literally the only one who told us how to turn the sprays into water and ways to get out of envy's possession. Also, considering not even veteran templars could detect envy, that doesn't bode well for the Inquisitor.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 20, 2016 23:51:20 GMT
The inner circle was equally lucky that pouring raw Magical energy into the mark didn't just kill the Inquisitor right then and there. This game generally speaking is only about twists of luck.. The mages channeling their magic into the anchor could had just as easly make the Inquisitor's hand explode like a firework. And the tabletop rpg I believe has it so that the templar dispelling abilities dispel all magic in an area, both friendly and hostile so it's entirely possible to assume that templar abilities could also weaken the mark and prevent you from closing the Breach.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 20, 2016 23:56:52 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure about that, a demon is a pretty common deal unlike a mage who can use time travel. What proof do you have that the Inquisitor could have stopped envy's possession attempt without Cole? Envy's questions always helped envy regardless of what your response was. Cole was literally the only one who told us how to turn the sprays into water and ways to get out of envy's possession. Also, considering not even veteran templars could detect envy, that doesn't bode well for the Inquisitor. Clearly none, but the difference is there isn't a precursor quest for "Champions of the Just" that reveals either the Villain or the nature of their power, unlike with "Hushed Whispers". You go there, you don't get a chance to prepare, you don't get a warning, you don't get a chance to leave. You had also no way of knowing that you would run into such an issue when you approached them. Same goes for the Mages initially of course, but the Envy demon assaults you as soon as you start the quest, unlike Alexius who lets you leave town and prepare.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 21, 2016 0:06:29 GMT
What proof do you have that the Inquisitor could have stopped envy's possession attempt without Cole? Envy's questions always helped envy regardless of what your response was. Cole was literally the only one who told us how to turn the sprays into water and ways to get out of envy's possession. Also, considering not even veteran templars could detect envy, that doesn't bode well for the Inquisitor. Clearly none, but the difference is there isn't a precursor quest for "Champions of the Just" that reveals either the Villain or the nature of their power, unlike with "Hushed Whispers". You go there, you don't get a chance to prepare, you don't get a warning, you don't get a chance to leave. You had also know way of knowing that you would run into such an issue when you approached them. Same goes for the Mages initially of course, but the Envy demon assaults you as soon as you start the quest, unlike Alexius who lets you leave town and prepare. There could be an argument made that the mark allowed the Inquisitor to dream with more focus (as Solas implied in his approval talk) and that the Inquisitor could manipulate the dream through that. But I'm not sure how much conscious control the Inquisitor has over that particular mark quality. Certain dialogue with Solas implies that it can be activated unconsciously, but the dream scene was largely dominated by Solas, with the Inquisitor not realizing he/she was in a dream till much later. To be fair though, that entire section with Envy's attempted possession should have been super hard for any one that wasn't a mage. Hell, even mages should have had a hard time resisting possession by a super powerful demon.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 21, 2016 0:09:24 GMT
Clearly none, but the difference is there isn't a precursor quest for "Champions of the Just" that reveals either the Villain or the nature of their power, unlike with "Hushed Whispers". You go there, you don't get a chance to prepare, you don't get a warning, you don't get a chance to leave. You had also know way of knowing that you would run into such an issue when you approached them. Same goes for the Mages initially of course, but the Envy demon assaults you as soon as you start the quest, unlike Alexius who lets you leave town and prepare. There could be an argument made that the mark allowed the Inquisitor to dream with more focus (as Solas implied in his approval talk) and that the Inquisitor could manipulate the dream through that. But I'm not sure how much conscious control the Inquisitor has over that particular mark quality. Certain dialogue with Solas implies that it can be activated unconsciously, but the dream scene was largely dominated by Solas, with the Inquisitor not realizing he/she was in a dream till much later. To be fair though, that entire section with Envy's attempted possession should have been super hard for any one that wasn't a mage. Hell, even mages should have had a hard time resisting possession by a super powerful demon. I think we can all agree that in either Case "Champions of the Just" and "In Hushed Whispers" the Inquisitor would have been equally screwed if it weren't for an unbelievable amount of plain good old fashion dumb luck.
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