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Post by xerrai on Sept 21, 2016 0:13:53 GMT
There could be an argument made that the mark allowed the Inquisitor to dream with more focus (as Solas implied in his approval talk) and that the Inquisitor could manipulate the dream through that. But I'm not sure how much conscious control the Inquisitor has over that particular mark quality. Certain dialogue with Solas implies that it can be activated unconsciously, but the dream scene was largely dominated by Solas, with the Inquisitor not realizing he/she was in a dream till much later. To be fair though, that entire section with Envy's attempted possession should have been super hard for any one that wasn't a mage. Hell, even mages should have had a hard time resisting possession by a super powerful demon. I think we can all agree that in either Case "Champions of the Just" and "In Hushed Whispers" the Inquisitor would have been equally screwed if it weren't for an unbelievable amount of plain good old fashion dumb luck. I'll say. If you didn't luck out and get stuck super smart mage Dorian AND get lucky with the super new prototype time magic amulet, you'd be stuck in the bad future. Probably getting killed or hauled off by a dragon as Cory desperately tries to figure out how to use and attain the mark.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 21, 2016 0:33:54 GMT
I think we can all agree that in either Case "Champions of the Just" and "In Hushed Whispers" the Inquisitor would have been equally screwed if it weren't for an unbelievable amount of plain good old fashion dumb luck. I'll say. If you didn't luck out and get stuck super smart mage Dorian AND get lucky with the super new prototype time magic amulet, you'd be stuck in the bad future. Probably getting killed or hauled off by a dragon as Cory desperately tries to figure out how to use and attain the mark. Well ... then there is just dumb saving the Inquisitor some times lol! My favorite was in the Temple of Mythal when we locked Cory out with that glowing magic door. That building is open air, there is no ceiling, and he can fly! Was he really just setting around twiddling his thumbs saying to himself "I know I can just go up and over it ... but I really don't want to let this door beat me, RAAAAAGH!!?"
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Post by Iakus on Sept 21, 2016 16:18:58 GMT
Clearly none, but the difference is there isn't a precursor quest for "Champions of the Just" that reveals either the Villain or the nature of their power, unlike with "Hushed Whispers". You go there, you don't get a chance to prepare, you don't get a warning, you don't get a chance to leave. You had also know way of knowing that you would run into such an issue when you approached them. Same goes for the Mages initially of course, but the Envy demon assaults you as soon as you start the quest, unlike Alexius who lets you leave town and prepare. There could be an argument made that the mark allowed the Inquisitor to dream with more focus (as Solas implied in his approval talk) and that the Inquisitor could manipulate the dream through that. But I'm not sure how much conscious control the Inquisitor has over that particular mark quality. Certain dialogue with Solas implies that it can be activated unconsciously, but the dream scene was largely dominated by Solas, with the Inquisitor not realizing he/she was in a dream till much later. To be fair though, that entire section with Envy's attempted possession should have been super hard for any one that wasn't a mage. Hell, even mages should have had a hard time resisting possession by a super powerful demon. Well, to be fair, Cole is helping you resist the Envy demon...
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Post by Prince on Sept 21, 2016 23:51:55 GMT
There's really no reason why any mage should feel obliged to side with other mages, any more than Varric should be loyal to Orzammar or Solas should join the Dalish. Having one thing in common, even a big thing, doesn't automatically make them "your people". Not punishing mages who are known to be guilty of crimes? I know some mage supporters seem to think that the mages deserve a free pass for resembling whatever real life parallel they want them to, but saying they should immune to the law... Your analogy falls apart because one, Varric is a surface dwarf and thus didn't grow up in Orzammar. If he did, he would care more about Orzammar, and Solas is a whole mess of things considering he's an ancient elf. You're forgetting that a human mage was raised in the Circle. How are other circle mages not fellow mages, especially those who happen to share your same views in the fraternities? You don't think it's curious that a human mage is the only mage that can't say they don't have a connection to the rebels to Fiona? Also, you're forgetting that the templars did in fact try to kill you regardless of your opinions. Do you think that if your human mage survived the Conclave without the Anchor, the templars would have ever hesitated about killing you? Why not help rescue fellow loyalist mages instead of going to the people that were trying to kill you and who if you try to recruit openly complain that they're stuck in a fort instead of killing mages. Also, where did my post imply mages shouldn't be punished for crimes or do you just feel like strawmanning my points? Facepalm you didn't even understood my analogy which was obviusly not to take into a litteral way and you're just ranting about how is impossible for you that a mage does not feel any bound with other mages so Lol because even in DAO there is the RP option to not help the "fellow mages" in the circle as a mage so it's all about RP here.Again just because one is a mage it does not have to feel any bound with other mages and actually yes pretty much many people wanted to kill the Pc at the beggining of the game not just templars so again what's your point other than you being unable to accept a mage who pick the side of templars? As for sparing or decide to pick side with former enemies who tried to kill me,sure why not if it is a benefit for me? I already did that with Loghain in DAO and that choice was more than beneficial since he killed Archdemon for me.😁 Ah yes your post implied what i said since among yours ho so called rebel mages there are many criminals who willingly allied with Alexius so no it isn't just Fiona, Why I should help the same mages who started this civil war if i never wanted this rebellion? To make it more clear: The rebel mages are not "my people NOR my faction" nor i do feel anything for them as an human mage.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 1:06:55 GMT
There's really no reason why any mage should feel obliged to side with other mages, any more than Varric should be loyal to Orzammar or Solas should join the Dalish. Having one thing in common, even a big thing, doesn't automatically make them "your people". Not punishing mages who are known to be guilty of crimes? I know some mage supporters seem to think that the mages deserve a free pass for resembling whatever real life parallel they want them to, but saying they should immune to the law... I'll agree to this. Admittedly I'm speaking from my Dalish Mage's perspective rather than a Circle Mage, but yeah ultimately there wasn't an innate arbitrary reason or connection to compel her to side with the Rebel Mages. There really isn't much a shared experience, a shared expectation, a shared goal, or even a shared perspective ... beyond "Just also being able to use Magic". Also it is possible to sympathize with the Circle Mages and still believe they should be held accountable for their own actions. Hate to break it to you but they did betray and conquer Redcliffe in the name of Tevinter, that crime would have gotten them a much worse sentence if the Inquisitor hadn't stepped in.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 1:37:55 GMT
There's really no reason why any mage should feel obliged to side with other mages, any more than Varric should be loyal to Orzammar or Solas should join the Dalish. Having one thing in common, even a big thing, doesn't automatically make them "your people". Not punishing mages who are known to be guilty of crimes? I know some mage supporters seem to think that the mages deserve a free pass for resembling whatever real life parallel they want them to, but saying they should immune to the law... I'll agree to this. Admittedly I'm speaking from my Dalish Mage's perspective rather than a Circle Mage, but yeah ultimately there wasn't an innate arbitrary reason or connection to compel her to side with the Rebel Mages. There really isn't much a shared experience, a shared expectation, a shared goal, or even a shared perspective ... beyond "Just also being able to use Magic". Also it is possible to sympathize with the Circle Mages and still believe they should be held accountable for their own actions. Hate to break it to you but they did betray and conquer Redcliffe in the name of Tevinter, that crime would have gotten them a much worse sentence if the Inquisitor hadn't stepped in. "Just also being able to use Magic". This is not "just", this is the reason, why this " same people, who just being able to use Magic" imprisoned and persecuted. This is the reason, why te rebellion started. This is not same, that you have short hair, I also have short hair, we shared our goal... They are not same people from the Templars' (or any people who not able to use magic) viewpoint...
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 2:18:48 GMT
It was precisely because I was a Dalish First that I went to the mages.
For all intents and purposes, the mages are 'special' civilians with no formal survival or military training. Leaving them without aid was just asking for an exponential amount of stress to be put on them. For mages in particular, that spells disaster.
Which, for leaders like Fiona and her party I'd be relatively ok with seeing as how it was they who wanted to start the fight for independence. But it was more than just Fiona and her direct followers. There were the elderly, children, tranquil and other mages who were caught in the chaos. Innocents who didn't know any better as far my Dalish elf was concerned.
It was in the interest for protecting the innocents and calling out the well-meaning but irresponsible leaders, that my Dalish First went to the mages first. She thought the Templars, despite their faults, could at least take care of themselves.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 2:33:19 GMT
I'll agree to this. Admittedly I'm speaking from my Dalish Mage's perspective rather than a Circle Mage, but yeah ultimately there wasn't an innate arbitrary reason or connection to compel her to side with the Rebel Mages. There really isn't much a shared experience, a shared expectation, a shared goal, or even a shared perspective ... beyond "Just also being able to use Magic". Also it is possible to sympathize with the Circle Mages and still believe they should be held accountable for their own actions. Hate to break it to you but they did betray and conquer Redcliffe in the name of Tevinter, that crime would have gotten them a much worse sentence if the Inquisitor hadn't stepped in. "Just also being able to use Magic". This is not "just", this is the reason, why this " same people, who just being able ti use Magic" imprisoned and persecuted. This is the reason, why te rebellion started. This is not same, that you have short hair, I also have short hair, we shared our goal... They are not same people on the Templars or any people, who not able to use magic... The ability to use Magic does not need to be the most prominent aspect of an individuals identity, it is merely a single facet of the whole. In fact from what we've experienced in this game its often those Mages that put the most emphasis and focus on their Magical Abilities to define themselves that all too often are the most dangerous, and the ones that reinforce the need for the Circles. Characters who can use magic and prefer to define themselves by other traits tend to have a healthier ability to handle the outside world and tend to not arbitrarily side with those who also happen to be able to use Magic. Vivienne is a Mage yes, but she is also a Courtier, a Politician, a First Enchanter, a Mistress, and a Member of the Inner Circle (and can even become Grand Enchanter and the Divine). I wonder what of those titles she values most? The one she obtained at birth, or the ones she worked to obtain? The same concept goes for my Dalish Mage. She is a Dalish, then a member of the Inner Circle, then an Inquisitor, a Friend, a Leader, a Lover ... these titles are more important because she worked to obtain them, or at bare minimum worked to give justice to the ones granted to her. The fact that she can use Magic, enjoys magic, and relies on magic in battle is a part of her identity that she doesn't consider it particularly special or prominent, even if she's ostracized for having it. While she appreciates that the Circle Mages may not have had the same opportunities and choices to define themselves outside of their Magic, "Mage" is not an identifier that she holds in particularly high regard to herself. It was something forced on her at birth, not something she worked for or towards. She may sympathize for the Rebels or with them, but ultimately she is not one of them and thus is not bound to them. "Mage" and "Magic" is just a tool to be used, not who she is. Ultimately however the biggest personality trait that is needed for a Mage to side with the Templars is to merely recognize themselves as an Individual and a Person, rather than just a Mage. Seems simple I know, but the ability to perceive oneself as merely a single Individual and a single Person allows one to perceive others in the same light and thus judge them as individuals rather than by their assigned social group. She therefore judged that the individuals she felt she should seek assistance from (and ultimately save) where those who were part of the Templar Order. Besides what was she saving the Rebel Mages in Redcliffe from exactly? The consequences from their crimes against Redcliffe and their fulfilling their end of the bargain with Alexius? He fulfilled his end of their bargain, as awful as their side is why should they not have to? Siding with and saving the Rebels really only means saving them from the very mistakes they foolishly made for themselves and not holding them accountable for their own actions.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 2:51:25 GMT
"Just also being able to use Magic". This is not "just", this is the reason, why this " same people, who just being able ti use Magic" imprisoned and persecuted. This is the reason, why te rebellion started. This is not same, that you have short hair, I also have short hair, we shared our goal... They are not same people on the Templars or any people, who not able to use magic... [...]. Besides what was she saving the Rebel Mages in Redcliffe from exactly? The consequences from their crimes against Redcliffe and their fulfilling their end of the bargain with Alexius? He fulfilled his end of their bargain, as awful as their side is why should they not have to? Siding with and saving the Rebels really only means saving them from the very mistakes they foolishly made for themselves and not holding them accountable for their own actions. It's a bit more complicated than that don't you think? At first, and prior to the Venatori taking over Redcliffe, Fiona was still the leader of a then-independent mage rebellion and offered to meet with you. It was only later that we learned that at some point in time she allied with Alexius and exiled the arl from his castle. That point in time was implied to have been tampered with by Alexius who managed to manipulate past (our current time) events to favor him. Meaning without time magic interference, Fiona would have most likely denied a Tevinter-alliance and the subsequent arl eviction that came of it. For all that Fiona may be guilty of, even I cannot deny that there were extenuating circumstances.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 2:56:16 GMT
"Just also being able to use Magic". This is not "just", this is the reason, why this " same people, who just being able ti use Magic" imprisoned and persecuted. This is the reason, why te rebellion started. This is not same, that you have short hair, I also have short hair, we shared our goal... They are not same people on the Templars or any people, who not able to use magic... The ability to use Magic does not need to be the most prominent aspect of an individuals identity, it is merely a single facet of the whole. In fact from what we've experienced in this game its often those Mages that put the most emphasis and focus on their Magical Abilities to define themselves that all too often are the most dangerous, and the ones that reinforce the need for the Circles. Characters who can use magic and prefer to define themselves by other traits tend to have a healthier ability to handle the outside world and tend to not arbitrarily side with those who also happen to be able to use Magic. Vivienne is a Mage yes, but she is also a Courtier, a Politician, a First Enchanter, a Mistress, and a Member of the Inner Circle (and can even become Grand Enchanter and the Divine). I wonder what of those titles she values most? The one she obtained at birth, or the ones she worked to obtain? The same concept goes for my Dalish Mage. She is a Dalish, then a member of the Inner Circle, then an Inquisitor, a Friend, a Leader, a Lover ... these titles are more important because she worked to obtain them, or at bare minimum worked to give justice to the ones granted to her. The fact that she can use Magic, enjoys magic, and relies on magic in battle is a part of her identity that she doesn't consider it particularly special or prominent, even if she's ostracized for having it. While she appreciates that the Circle Mages may not have had the same opportunities and choices to define themselves outside of their Magic, "Mage" is not an identifier that she holds in particularly high regard to herself. It was something forced on her at birth, not something she worked for or towards. She may sympathize for the Rebels or with them, but ultimately she is not one of them and thus is not bound to them. Ultimately however the biggest personality trait that is needed for a Mage to side with the Templars is to merely recognize themselves as an Individual and a Person, rather than just a Mage. Seems simple I know, but the ability to perceive oneself as merely a single Individual and a single Person allows one to perceive others in the same light and thus judged that the individuals she felt she should seek assistance from (and ultimately save) where those who were part of the Templar Order. Besides what was she saving the Rebel Mages in Redcliffe from exactly? The consequences from their crimes against Redcliffe and their fulfilling their end of the bargain with Alexius it seems? Siding with and saving the Rebels really only means saving them from the very mistakes they foolishly made for themselves. Yes, this is very nice! And true, the mages probably don't want to identify themselves only with one congenital talent, but they are forced, because the people identify them with one congenital talent. What could be a mage? Templar? Carpenter? Farmer? No way. Want a family? No way. They want privacy? Haha! No. Most of them are only mage, as long as people identify them only as a mage. Individual person? When the mages was treated just as an individual person? (You forgot to mention in relation of Vivienne that she a social climber)
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 3:18:37 GMT
[...]. Besides what was she saving the Rebel Mages in Redcliffe from exactly? The consequences from their crimes against Redcliffe and their fulfilling their end of the bargain with Alexius? He fulfilled his end of their bargain, as awful as their side is why should they not have to? Siding with and saving the Rebels really only means saving them from the very mistakes they foolishly made for themselves and not holding them accountable for their own actions. It's a bit more complicated than that don't you think? At first, and prior to the Venatori taking over Redcliffe, Fiona was still the leader of a then-independent mage rebellion and offered to meet with you. It was only later that we learned that at some point in time she allied with Alexius and exiled the arl from his castle. That point in time was implied to have been tampered with by Alexius who managed to manipulate past (our current time) events to favor him. Meaning without time magic interference, Fiona would have most likely denied a Tevinter-alliance and the subsequent arl eviction that came of it. For all that Fiona may be guilty of, even I cannot deny that there were extenuating circumstances. No its really not. Even with the Time Magic into consideration Fiona's explanation as to how the vote ultimately swung in favor of the Tevinter deal was the Venatori sending a few Mage agents into the Rebel's numbers to sway their population into supporting the Tevinter forces. Those agents used neither blood magic, nor any other nefarious magical or chemical means to sway those votes, but merely relied on the power of suggestion and their charisma. They were only allowed the chance to do this due to Fiona's unbelievable lack of control of her own numbers of course, but ultimately it resulted in a Democratic vote that supported enslaving themselves to Tevinter. At best the Tevinter Agents added a few extra votes into the mix themselves, but for the most part it was the perfectly luscent, perfectly within their right minds, Rebel Mages that ultimately voted in favor of Alexius. The actual amount of manipulation it took to persuade the Rebel's into doing something so stupid and terrible (as it was explained) was truly remarkably small. They stuck with the deal even through the ousting the Arl and the taking over of Redcliffe (nothing forced them to). If one is not meta-gaming when they make the decision what the Inquisitor truly finds is a timeline rearranged to where the Mages have made a deal with Tevinter, but nothing suggesting that the Rebels were forced into the agreement by any means. They made a deal of their own free will, they betrayed Redcliffe of their own free will. The Inquisitor has no means of going back in time to fix this issue and thus they are stuck in the timeline where the Mages took the deal. Saying what if, and what was, based on Time Travel Magic gets us nowhere in this argument, because that original Timeline ceased to be as soon as Alexius made his move. If I were to use such an argument in favor of the Rebels, then I could just as easily condemn them for the results their actions had on the future timeline as well (which also ceased to be as soon as the Inquisitor returned to their own time). If the Inquisitor had died, or never found a way back to the past, the Rebel Mages through their own idiocy helped Corypheus end the world. That is fact, that is the ultimate result of their decision to enslave themselves to Alexius without the Inquisitor alive to interfere. They actively helped destroy the world.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 3:38:25 GMT
Yes, this is very nice! And true, the mages probably don't want to identify themselves only with one congenital talent, but they are forced, because the people identify them with one congenital talent. What could be a mage? Templar? Carpenter? Farmer? No way. Want a family? No way. They want privacy? Haha! No. Most of them are only mage, as long as people identify them only as a mage. Individual person? When the mages was treated just as an individual person? (You forgot to mention in relation of Vivienne that she a social climber) Yeah ... when did I ever mention what other peopled labeled them as? I only mentioned what they labeled themselves as. Society may force the role of Mage upon them, but the don't need to force it upon themselves. Identifying yourself as a SINGLE SOLITARY PERSON FIRST, regardless of what others think, and remembering that you are not merely a part of a collective. You are an individual who is responsible for your own actions and yes your situation may be hard at times, but you are still responsible for them ... and will still be held accountable for them by others. The ultimate irony is that the biggest failing of the Rebellion wasn't that they would have died bloody and enslaved if not for outside interference, it was that the Mages who so desperately wanted to prove that they were responsible enough to handle self governance, self rule, and self judgement ... continuously in every single instance in DA2 and DA:I failed to show they were actually capable of holding themselves responsible for anything. They may have been put in a crappy position, but to blame everything and everyone other than themselves for their own decisions (not the situation) THEY ultimately made proved over and over that they aren't ready to police and manage themselves as a group ... since they weren't even capable of policing and managing THEMSELVES as individuals! That's part of the reason that they were such a scattered mess of an Organization when you meet them in Redcliffe and part of the reason they are so inherently dangerous. They weren't willing to suck it up and face their own mistakes when they made them and instead constantly made excuses to deflect blame. That's ultimately the reason my Dalish Mage starting believing the Circles and the Templars might be necessary in some form or another. The Mages own behavior and failings convinced her, not the Templars or the Chantry. If they are not ready to at very least hold themselves accountable for their own actions, they are not ready to live outside the Circles. That's all there is to it, its the barest necessity. Any mage who is willing to do that, should not be in a Circle, but you don't get to meet to many of those in these games (and almost all of them are ironically Pro-Circle).
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 4:29:25 GMT
It's a bit more complicated than that don't you think? At first, and prior to the Venatori taking over Redcliffe, Fiona was still the leader of a then-independent mage rebellion and offered to meet with you. It was only later that we learned that at some point in time she allied with Alexius and exiled the arl from his castle. That point in time was implied to have been tampered with by Alexius who managed to manipulate past (our current time) events to favor him. Meaning without time magic interference, Fiona would have most likely denied a Tevinter-alliance and the subsequent arl eviction that came of it. For all that Fiona may be guilty of, even I cannot deny that there were extenuating circumstances. No its really not. Even with the Time Magic into consideration Fiona's explanation as to how the vote ultimately swung in favor of the Tevinter deal was the Venatori sending a few Mage agents into the Rebel's numbers to sway their population into supporting the Tevinter forces. Those agents used neither blood magic, nor any other nefarious magical or chemical means to sway those votes, but merely relied on the power of suggestion and their charisma. They were only allowed the chance to do this due to Fiona's unbelievable lack of control of her own numbers of course, but ultimately it resulted in a Democratic vote that supported enslaving themselves to Tevinter. At best the Tevinter Agents added a few extra votes into the mix themselves, but for the most part it was the perfectly luscent, perfectly within their right minds, Rebel Mages that ultimately voted in favor of Alexius. The actual amount of manipulation it took to persuade the Rebel's into doing something so stupid and terrible (as it was explained) was truly remarkably small. They stuck with the deal even through the ousting the Arl and the taking over of Redcliffe (nothing forced them to). If one is not meta-gaming when they make the decision what the Inquisitor truly finds is a timeline rearranged to where the Mages have made a deal with Tevinter, but nothing suggesting that the Rebels were forced into the agreement by any means. They made a deal of their own free will, they betrayed Redcliffe of their own free will. The Inquisitor has no means of going back in time to fix this issue and thus they are stuck in the timeline where the Mages took the deal. Saying what if, and what was, based on Time Travel Magic gets us nowhere in this argument, because that original Timeline ceased to be as soon as Alexius made his move. If I were to use such an argument in favor of the Rebels, then I could just as easily condemn them for the results their actions had on the future timeline as well (which also ceased to be as soon as the Inquisitor returned to their own time). If the Inquisitor had died, or never found a way back to the past, the Rebel Mages through their own idiocy helped Corypheus end the world. That is fact, that is the ultimate result of their decision to enslave themselves to Alexius without the Inquisitor alive to interfere. They actively helped destroy the world. It is to my understanding that Alexius managed to convince Fiona that a Templar attack was immanent, and Fiona ended up joing them because she feared that if she didn't their numbers would be wiped out. A decision made out of desperation. I'd criticize Fiona for not fact-checking their claims and being so easily manipulated by them, but I wouldn't blame all of the rebel mages. Or even the majority. There is absolutely no indication that the other mages had a part of the negotiations that lead up to the deal that made them indentured (that I know of). They were just around for the ride because they believed they had nowhere else to go that was considered safer than what they already had. Their free will amounted to stay and follow their leader or leave and face the definite possibility of perishing News entering Radcliffe was scarce due to their self-imposed lockdown for security reasons. From a group of people who honestly don't know what to do, I can't fault them too much for opting for the seemingly more secure option. As much as I wish I could bundle up all of the mages into a single group I could blame (so neat and tidy that way), I simply can't do so with a full conscience given the evidence on their situation.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 22, 2016 4:29:31 GMT
Yes, this is very nice! And true, the mages probably don't want to identify themselves only with one congenital talent, but they are forced, because the people identify them with one congenital talent. What could be a mage? Templar? Carpenter? Farmer? No way. Want a family? No way. They want privacy? Haha! No. Most of them are only mage, as long as people identify them only as a mage. Individual person? When the mages was treated just as an individual person? (You forgot to mention in relation of Vivienne that she a social climber) Yeah ... when did I ever mention what other peopled labeled them as? I only mentioned what they labeled themselves as. Society may force the role of Mage upon them, but the don't need to force it upon themselves. Identifying yourself as a SINGLE SOLITARY PERSON FIRST, regardless of what others think, and remembering that you are not merely a part of a collective. You are an individual who is responsible for your own actions and yes your situation may be hard at times, but you are still responsible for them ... and will still be held accountable for them by others. The ultimate irony is that the biggest failing of the Rebellion wasn't that they would have died bloody and enslaved if not for outside interference, it was that the Mages who so desperately wanted to prove that they were responsible enough to handle self governance, self rule, and self judgement ... continuously in every single instance in DA2 and DA:I failed to show they were actually capable of holding themselves responsible for anything. They may have been put in a crappy position, but to blame everything and everyone other than themselves for their own decisions (not the situation) THEY ultimately made proved over and over that they aren't ready to police and manage themselves as a group ... since they weren't even capable of policing and managing THEMSELVES as individuals! That's part of the reason that they were such a scattered mess of an Organization when you meet them in Redcliffe and part of the reason they are so inherently dangerous. They weren't willing to suck it up and face their own mistakes when they made them and instead constantly made excuses to deflect blame. That's ultimately the reason my Dalish Mage starting believing the Circles and the Templars might be necessary in some form or another. The Mages own behavior and failings convinced her, not the Templars or the Chantry. If they are not ready to at very least hold themselves accountable for their own actions, they are not ready to live outside the Circles. That's all there is to it, its the barest necessity. Any mage who is willing to do that, should not be in a Circle, but you don't get to meet to many of those in these games (and almost all of them are ironically Pro-Circle). So you think the Templars are going to magically stop hunting down dalish mages?
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 4:35:32 GMT
Yeah ... when did I ever mention what other peopled labeled them as? I only mentioned what they labeled themselves as. Society may force the role of Mage upon them, but the don't need to force it upon themselves. Identifying yourself as a SINGLE SOLITARY PERSON FIRST, regardless of what others think, and remembering that you are not merely a part of a collective. You are an individual who is responsible for your own actions and yes your situation may be hard at times, but you are still responsible for them ... and will still be held accountable for them by others. The ultimate irony is that the biggest failing of the Rebellion wasn't that they would have died bloody and enslaved if not for outside interference, it was that the Mages who so desperately wanted to prove that they were responsible enough to handle self governance, self rule, and self judgement ... continuously in every single instance in DA2 and DA:I failed to show they were actually capable of holding themselves responsible for anything. They may have been put in a crappy position, but to blame everything and everyone other than themselves for their own decisions (not the situation) THEY ultimately made proved over and over that they aren't ready to police and manage themselves as a group ... since they weren't even capable of policing and managing THEMSELVES as individuals! That's part of the reason that they were such a scattered mess of an Organization when you meet them in Redcliffe and part of the reason they are so inherently dangerous. They weren't willing to suck it up and face their own mistakes when they made them and instead constantly made excuses to deflect blame. That's ultimately the reason my Dalish Mage starting believing the Circles and the Templars might be necessary in some form or another. The Mages own behavior and failings convinced her, not the Templars or the Chantry. If they are not ready to at very least hold themselves accountable for their own actions, they are not ready to live outside the Circles. That's all there is to it, its the barest necessity. Any mage who is willing to do that, should not be in a Circle, but you don't get to meet to many of those in these games (and almost all of them are ironically Pro-Circle). So you think the Templars are going to magically stop hunting down dalish mages? Most Dalish mages are in a sort of law limbo where while they are technically apostates, they are tolerated by the Chantry. Probably due to how they are considered a "comparatively minor" threat in comparison to other apostates who are more prone to using dangerous magic (ex. blood magic or magic that has no formal training). The Dalish at least have their own systems for dealing with mages. So while I can see a few templars troops being sent out (likely at the behest of city where the Clan is considered a threat and the Chantry agreed) I don't see them actively hunting them down. They have human mages to deal with most of the time. The greatest current threat to the Dalish is not so much the Chantry so much as it just regular human prejudice. Gaspard wanted to hunt Dalish clans, city-states often call the guard when a clan is spotted, that whole deal with Wycome, etc. Templars are simply a much smaller threat in comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 4:57:10 GMT
What is this "pure blooded willpower"? Some blood magic? Something that I find odd...wouldn't ANY kind of lyrium based power be blood magic since lyrium is appearantly the blood of the titans?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 11:37:04 GMT
Yes, this is very nice! And true, the mages probably don't want to identify themselves only with one congenital talent, but they are forced, because the people identify them with one congenital talent. What could be a mage? Templar? Carpenter? Farmer? No way. Want a family? No way. They want privacy? Haha! No. Most of them are only mage, as long as people identify them only as a mage. Individual person? When the mages was treated just as an individual person? (You forgot to mention in relation of Vivienne that she a social climber) Yeah ... when did I ever mention what other peopled labeled them as? I only mentioned what they labeled themselves as. Society may force the role of Mage upon them, but the don't need to force it upon themselves. Identifying yourself as a SINGLE SOLITARY PERSON FIRST, regardless of what others think, and remembering that you are not merely a part of a collective. You are an individual who is responsible for your own actions and yes your situation may be hard at times, but you are still responsible for them ... and will still be held accountable for them by others. The ultimate irony is that the biggest failing of the Rebellion wasn't that they would have died bloody and enslaved if not for outside interference, it was that the Mages who so desperately wanted to prove that they were responsible enough to handle self governance, self rule, and self judgement ... continuously in every single instance in DA2 and DA:I failed to show they were actually capable of holding themselves responsible for anything. They may have been put in a crappy position, but to blame everything and everyone other than themselves for their own decisions (not the situation) THEY ultimately made proved over and over that they aren't ready to police and manage themselves as a group ... since they weren't even capable of policing and managing THEMSELVES as individuals! That's part of the reason that they were such a scattered mess of an Organization when you meet them in Redcliffe and part of the reason they are so inherently dangerous. They weren't willing to suck it up and face their own mistakes when they made them and instead constantly made excuses to deflect blame. That's ultimately the reason my Dalish Mage starting believing the Circles and the Templars might be necessary in some form or another. The Mages own behavior and failings convinced her, not the Templars or the Chantry. If they are not ready to at very least hold themselves accountable for their own actions, they are not ready to live outside the Circles. That's all there is to it, its the barest necessity. Any mage who is willing to do that, should not be in a Circle, but you don't get to meet to many of those in these games (and almost all of them are ironically Pro-Circle). This is very nice and very naive idea. They must learn to live with other people, but it does not go in blink of an eye. They must indentify themselves as individual person, yes, but it is a process. They must compensate 1000 years of oppression's disadvantage. If we choose the mages, they get a chance. If we choose the Templars, they will be stigmatized unreliable again, moreover by a mage. You also believed Vivienne, because she is a mage. If she said: the mages need leash, so the mages needs leash... Because a mage know... I said, your choice, but weird choice. As elf mage you choosed the human Templars, without any good reason (just Cullen suggested the templars, the Templars had go away, when you called them), just because you do not need identify yourself as elf and as mage... The Circles are necessary, of course. As a school, a library etc. But as elf mage simply do not see why you trust the Templars. The reason what you say: the reason of a person, who wants to deny everything what he is, but whether he is not going to change, and neither the people's opinion. In fact, only strengthen prejudices. As Vivienne – for example. My opinion.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 11:56:47 GMT
It is to my understanding that Alexius managed to convince Fiona that a Templar attack was immanent, and Fiona ended up joing them because she feared that if she didn't their numbers would be wiped out. A decision made out of desperation. I'd criticize Fiona for not fact-checking their claims and being so easily manipulated by them, but I wouldn't blame all of the rebel mages. Or even the majority. There is absolutely no indication that the other mages had a part of the negotiations that lead up to the deal that made them indentured (that I know of). They were just around for the ride because they believed they had nowhere else to go that was considered safer than what they already had. Their free will amounted to stay and follow their leader or leave and face the definite possibility of perishing News entering Radcliffe was scarce due to their self-imposed lockdown for security reasons. From a group of people who honestly don't know what to do, I can't fault them too much for opting for the seemingly more secure option. As much as I wish I could bundle up all of the mages into a single group I could blame (so neat and tidy that way), I simply can't do so with a full conscience given the evidence on their situation. Fiona straight up tells you what happened in Skyhold if you ally and conscript them through optional dialogue. That is was up to a Democratic vote just like all the other Rebel Mage's decisions that defined their fate with Alexius, and how their were a few Venatori agents that were sent into the crowd to manipulate them into voting Alexius' way. It wasn't only Fiona, or only a small faction that made that decision for them, but again a majority vote that got them into trouble. Also ... who said I was bundling up the Mages? Who said I was bundling up the Templars for that matter. The decision to Ally or Conscript the Rebel's and the Templars ultimately comes down to deciding between the Rebel's in Redcliffe or the Templars in Therinfal, those are who you are actively allying with. The only ones I'm condemning for their Individual actions by not choosing them, is those two specific groups. All the Rebel factions outside the Redcliffe decision, all the Templars outside Therinfal ... you have no direct dealings with.
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Post by secretrare on Sept 22, 2016 12:36:06 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure about that, a demon is a pretty common deal unlike a mage who can use time travel. What proof do you have that the Inquisitor could have stopped envy's possession attempt without Cole? Envy's questions always helped envy regardless of what your response was. Cole was literally the only one who told us how to turn the sprays into water and ways to get out of envy's possession. Also, considering not even veteran templars could detect envy, that doesn't bode well for the Inquisitor. What proof do you have to claim the contrary?The only thing that is certain is that a mage with the ability to use time travel is more dangerous than a demon which was not even a top rank demon(Desire,pride)
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 22, 2016 14:10:39 GMT
It is to my understanding that Alexius managed to convince Fiona that a Templar attack was immanent, and Fiona ended up joing them because she feared that if she didn't their numbers would be wiped out. A decision made out of desperation. I'd criticize Fiona for not fact-checking their claims and being so easily manipulated by them, but I wouldn't blame all of the rebel mages. Or even the majority. There is absolutely no indication that the other mages had a part of the negotiations that lead up to the deal that made them indentured (that I know of). They were just around for the ride because they believed they had nowhere else to go that was considered safer than what they already had. Their free will amounted to stay and follow their leader or leave and face the definite possibility of perishing News entering Radcliffe was scarce due to their self-imposed lockdown for security reasons. From a group of people who honestly don't know what to do, I can't fault them too much for opting for the seemingly more secure option. As much as I wish I could bundle up all of the mages into a single group I could blame (so neat and tidy that way), I simply can't do so with a full conscience given the evidence on their situation. Fiona straight up tells you what happened in Skyhold if you ally and conscript them through optional dialogue. That is was up to a Democratic vote just like all the other Rebel Mage's decisions that defined their fate with Alexius, and how their were a few Venatori agents that were sent into the crowd to manipulate them into voting Alexius' way. It wasn't only Fiona, or only a small faction that made that decision for them, but again a majority vote that got them into trouble. Also ... who said I was bundling up the Mages? Who said I was bundling up the Templars for that matter. The decision to Ally or Conscript the Rebel's and the Templars ultimately comes down to deciding between the Rebel's in Redcliffe or the Templars in Therinfal, those are who you are actively allying with. The only ones I'm condemning for their Individual actions by not choosing them, is those two specific groups. All the Rebel factions outside the Redcliffe decision, all the Templars outside Therinfal ... you have no direct dealings with. Show me the actual dialogue showing the alliance with Tevinter was democratic. I've never seen that dialogue you're describing. The only decision that was democratic was rebelling against the circles. Nothing indicates that anyone other than Fiona helped decide the alliance with Tevinter.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 14:50:55 GMT
What is this "pure blooded willpower"? Some blood magic? Something that I find odd...wouldn't ANY kind of lyrium based power be blood magic since lyrium is appearantly the blood of the titans? It's entirely possible. We have little idea how blood magic actually works.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 16:07:36 GMT
Yeah ... when did I ever mention what other peopled labeled them as? I only mentioned what they labeled themselves as. Society may force the role of Mage upon them, but the don't need to force it upon themselves. Identifying yourself as a SINGLE SOLITARY PERSON FIRST, regardless of what others think, and remembering that you are not merely a part of a collective. You are an individual who is responsible for your own actions and yes your situation may be hard at times, but you are still responsible for them ... and will still be held accountable for them by others. The ultimate irony is that the biggest failing of the Rebellion wasn't that they would have died bloody and enslaved if not for outside interference, it was that the Mages who so desperately wanted to prove that they were responsible enough to handle self governance, self rule, and self judgement ... continuously in every single instance in DA2 and DA:I failed to show they were actually capable of holding themselves responsible for anything. They may have been put in a crappy position, but to blame everything and everyone other than themselves for their own decisions (not the situation) THEY ultimately made proved over and over that they aren't ready to police and manage themselves as a group ... since they weren't even capable of policing and managing THEMSELVES as individuals! That's part of the reason that they were such a scattered mess of an Organization when you meet them in Redcliffe and part of the reason they are so inherently dangerous. They weren't willing to suck it up and face their own mistakes when they made them and instead constantly made excuses to deflect blame. That's ultimately the reason my Dalish Mage starting believing the Circles and the Templars might be necessary in some form or another. The Mages own behavior and failings convinced her, not the Templars or the Chantry. If they are not ready to at very least hold themselves accountable for their own actions, they are not ready to live outside the Circles. That's all there is to it, its the barest necessity. Any mage who is willing to do that, should not be in a Circle, but you don't get to meet to many of those in these games (and almost all of them are ironically Pro-Circle). So you think the Templars are going to magically stop hunting down dalish mages? Nope! Don't expect it, the possibility is always there. But my Dalish also recognizes that the Dalish are just as/or more likely to be blamed for something they didn't do and ripped apart about the every day human community as well. If a Dalish Mage is not willing to forgive the Templars and instead immediately condemns them just because they are a Mage, they would not be able to forgive the Human Species and their Culture in its entirety either and thus would have no reason not to condemn them because they happen to be Dalish. The Templars did not destroy the Dalish. Humanity destroyed the Dalish, their culture destroyed the Dalish, they continue to try and destroy the Dalish. Judging people and deciding who she wished to help on an individual basis, based off their individual actions, is more proactive way about going about things ... because if she judged them all based off their groups she would be forced to condemn them all.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 16:22:25 GMT
Fiona straight up tells you what happened in Skyhold if you ally and conscript them through optional dialogue. That is was up to a Democratic vote just like all the other Rebel Mage's decisions that defined their fate with Alexius, and how their were a few Venatori agents that were sent into the crowd to manipulate them into voting Alexius' way. It wasn't only Fiona, or only a small faction that made that decision for them, but again a majority vote that got them into trouble. Also ... who said I was bundling up the Mages? Who said I was bundling up the Templars for that matter. The decision to Ally or Conscript the Rebel's and the Templars ultimately comes down to deciding between the Rebel's in Redcliffe or the Templars in Therinfal, those are who you are actively allying with. The only ones I'm condemning for their Individual actions by not choosing them, is those two specific groups. All the Rebel factions outside the Redcliffe decision, all the Templars outside Therinfal ... you have no direct dealings with. Show me the actual dialogue showing the alliance with Tevinter was democratic. I've never seen that dialogue you're describing. The only decision that was democratic was rebelling against the circles. Nothing indicates that anyone other than Fiona helped decide the alliance with Tevinter. Fiona when you first meet her in Skyhold. I: "I've been wanting to ask: How exactly did the Venatori take control of Redcliffe?" F: "Mages constantly found there way to us while they were there. Stragglers. Most of them Strangers." F: "I had no way of knowing some were actually Tevinter" F: " They spread whispers, encouraged talk of an Alliance ... and we were desperate" F: "I'm not proud of our choice, but we were certain the Templars were coming. It could have ended far worse". While it doesn't outright say that they made the decision Democratically, the Tevinter went out of their way to propagate discussion amongst the general Rebel population for a reason. If the decision was entirely up to Fiona, why would they do this? This dialogue also implies that it was "their", not "her" decision to make. Plus, Mage decisions in Mage Circles have almost always been decided through a vote. Why would all of a sudden they change their method of governance now? Fiona may have been their leader, but she wasn't their monarch or tyrant, the Mages who supported the leaving of the Circle would never have allowed that shift in power. As a Community, strangely, the Circle Mages were the first to craft a Democratic Society within all of Thedas. Whether they did it as a result of being oppressed and having no alternatives or not, that is something they should truly be proud of. The unfortunate part of a true Democracy however is that it comes with the threat of "Rule of the Irrational Mob" becoming a real issue.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 16:26:16 GMT
Show me the actual dialogue showing the alliance with Tevinter was democratic. I've never seen that dialogue you're describing. The only decision that was democratic was rebelling against the circles. Nothing indicates that anyone other than Fiona helped decide the alliance with Tevinter. [...] While it doesn't outright say that they made the decision Democratically, the Tevinter went out of their way to propagate discussion amongst the general Rebel population for a reason. If the decision was entirely up to Fiona, why would they do this? This dialogue also implies that it was "their", not "her" decision to make. Plus, Mage decisions in Mage Circles have almost always been decided through a vote. Why would all of a sudden they change their method of governance now? Fiona may have been their leader, but she wasn't their monarch or tyrant, the Mages who supported the leaving of the Circle would never have allowed that shift in power. As a Community, strangely, the Circle Mages were the first to craft a Democratic Society within all of Thedas. Whether they did it as a result of being oppressed and having no alternatives or not, that is something they should truly be proud of. The unfortunate part of a true Democracy however is that it comes with the threat of "Rule of the Irrational Mob" becoming a real issue. Haha, the Circles as the epitome of democracy. Do you have a good sense of humor!
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 16:52:05 GMT
Yes, this is very nice! And true, the mages probably don't want to identify themselves only with one congenital talent, but they are forced, because the people identify them with one congenital talent. What could be a mage? Templar? Carpenter? Farmer? No way. Want a family? No way. They want privacy? Haha! No. Most of them are only mage, as long as people identify them only as a mage. Individual person? When the mages was treated just as an individual person? (You forgot to mention in relation of Vivienne that she a social climber) Nice double standard you have there. The Mages want to define themselves as something other than a Mage and be seen as individuals (though clearly not wanting the accountability factor), but they refuse to see the Templars as individuals and thus refuse to judge them based on an individual basis. YOU want a Mage to be able to have the chance to identify themselves as an individual person, but you refuse that same right to a Templar. Condemning them ALL for what their FACTION is responsible for! You refuse to condemn the Mages as a group for ANYTHING an individual member of the Mages does, meaning you perceive those individuals actions theirs and theirs alone and not reflective of the group (though you still forgive them because "OPPRESSION"), but not the Templars. By your logic a Mage PC by default must forgive their individual actions and save the Rebels because of what their Faction Represents, rather than what the Individual members are actively doing ... While on the other hand considering every individual Templar is apparently unworthy of help and rescue from a Mage, because they all share their Faction's guilt? Even though there are plenty of Templars who did their job exactly like they were supposed to and protected both the Mages and the People as best they could within the restrictions of society. As a result you've created a situation where as long as the Mages remain in a state of oppression anything a Mage does is justifiable or excusable and anything a Templar does is condemned. The Templars are tools of the oppressors (the People) and therefore as long as they behave in accordance to that, they are always in the wrong.
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