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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 20:56:55 GMT
Combined with a blood mage attack on the Divine, the Ghost of the Spire, and Fiona's rabble-rousing? It's heavily implied the Templars intentionally let the Mage get through to the divine, the ghost incident only happened because the Templars left the real Cole to starve, and the independence vote likely wouldn't have passed if it wasn't for the Templars interfering Implication is not proof. And regarless of how Cole came about, his killings started a witch hunt among the mages. The vote never passed to begin with. Fiona hijacked the conclave to tallk for the vote (despite the fact that it was called to discuss the cure for Tranquility and ONLY that), which, combined with Rhys being framed for being the GHost of the Spire (by another mage, at that) set of Lambert.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 21:02:47 GMT
Oh, this all was Anders' fault? Also he killed Kenny... Bastard! As others have noted, he lit the spark. He "removed the possibility of compromise" He ensured there could be no peaceful resolution or reform. There was never a chance for a peaceful solution. Nobody interested about compromise except the mages, but they are not same as other people...
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 21:09:16 GMT
As others have noted, he lit the spark. He "removed the possibility of compromise" He ensured there could be no peaceful resolution or reform. There was never a chance for a peaceful solution. Nobody interested about compromise except the mages, but they are not same as other people... Justinia was.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 21:18:36 GMT
As others have noted, he lit the spark. He "removed the possibility of compromise" He ensured there could be no peaceful resolution or reform. There was never a chance for a peaceful solution. Nobody interested about compromise except the mages, but they are not same as other people... LOL I guess its a good thing that if the Inquisition doesn't interfere and save them, they all end up enslaved or dead. Truly a worthwhile decision to rebel when they did. Nice to know Ander's decision to make sure there was absolutely no chance for peaceful Compromise, and Fiona's obsessive push for Leaving the Circles no matter the timing and consequences, paid off. Dead Mages all around ... Dead, Dead, Dead. Oh ... a survivor! Guess what you sold yourself to Tevinter, get your lucky little slave butt back to work! Truly, truly, a remarkable mess and total failure of a rebellion for Independence all around. It will go down in history as one of the worst. Either they died/enslaved or ... they got saved by the Inquisition and had to depend entirely on them for survival, then went right back to suckling on the lucrative teat of the Chantry. Circle or College, either way, the Chantries paying for it. Nice to know those Clergy-men don't hold grudges and are willing to suffer the rep damage by taking those wayward Mages in. Good folks them Chantry people!
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 21:25:59 GMT
There was never a chance for a peaceful solution. Nobody interested about compromise except the mages, but they are not same as other people... Justinia was. Justinia wanted to convert the Circles to schools/libraries, and free the mages? Good to know. So Anders made a mistake...
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 22, 2016 21:28:24 GMT
There was never a chance for a peaceful solution. Nobody interested about compromise except the mages, but they are not same as other people... LOL I guess its a good thing that if the Inquisition doesn't interfere and save them, they all end up enslaved or dead. Truly a worthwhile decision to rebel when they did. Nice to know Ander's decision to make sure there was absolutely no chance for peaceful Compromise, and Fiona's obsessive push for Leaving the Circles no matter the timing and consequences, paid off. Dead Mages all around ... Dead, Dead, Dead. Oh ... a survivor! Guess what you sold yourself to Tevinter, get your lucky little slave butt back to work! Truly, truly, a remarkable mess and total failure of a rebellion for Independence all around. It will go down in history as one of the worst. Either they died/enslaved or ... they got saved by the Inquisition and had to depend entirely on them for survival, then went right back to suckling on the lucrative teat of the Chantry. Circle or College, either way, the Chantries paying for it. Nice to know those Clergy-men don't hold grudges and are willing to suffer the rep damage by taking those wayward Mages in. Good folks them Chantry people! Did you forget that the College is completely independent from the Chantry under Divine Leliana? Also funny how you ignore the templars' role in this whole mess or how they are corrupted if the Inquisition doesn't save them.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 21:32:41 GMT
Did you forget that the College is completely independent from the Chantry under Divine Leliana? As far as I'm aware the "Under Divine Leliana" part means there is no real Chantry oversight, but they are still funding the College. The "lucrative teat" as it were. Unless the Mages suddenly sprouted trade skills, or grew some replacement tranquil in the College Garden (after killing or abandoning most of their old ones when they left the Circles), they have no viable source of income! Hell even if they had Tranquil they have no source of Lyrium to make enchantments because the Chantry controls the Lyrium trade! YAY!!! You can eat books, but they aren't all that healthy for you. Also, the Templars were drugged and corrupted without their knowledge or consent. Their leader was a Envy Demon replacement. The Mages sold themselves willingly to a Tevinter Death cult due to an "implied" threat of Templars and then while presumably still in their right minds (again unlike the Templars) under Cory's orders attacked Haven ... and then while doing so Fiona has the gall to blame you for their situation. Even right before the end ... that woman cannot hold herself accountable for anything. EDIT: Also, are the mages really that stupid? Did they really think that the Templars are so utterly thirsty for Mage Blood they would openly attack Redcliffe (which has a castle so tough the Inquisition couldn't have hoped to take it without that secret passage, even with so few Tevinter guards) and inherently declare war against all of Fereldon? The King/Queen/Both had openly stated their protection of any Mage in Redcliffe, they put them there because it is one of the single most defensible positions in their entire nation. Hell its one of the toughest nuts to crack in the entire world from what I'm aware. No matter how much paranoid nonsense the Tevinter agents were "Grima Wormtongue-ing" into the Rebel's ears the Templars weren't coming ... they really weren't! Your safe, stop being so stupid ... no, seriously, stop!
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 21:43:00 GMT
Justinia wanted to convert the Circles to schools/libraries, and free the mages? Good to know. So Anders made a mistake... It is never specified how much she wanted to change the Circles (as Cassandra and Leliana demonstrate) but yes, she was willing to compromise. And Anders frakked up big time, yes.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 22:03:18 GMT
Justinia wanted to convert the Circles to schools/libraries, and free the mages? Good to know. So Anders made a mistake... It is never specified how much she wanted to change the Circles (as Cassandra and Leliana demonstrate) but yes, she was willing to compromise. And Anders frakked up big time, yes. If she wanted to free the mages, why not did it before? No, Anders was right (only his tool was questionable.) What Anders knew just was: the Divine want an Exalted March against Kirkwall, because of mages. This is not very promising. Leliana also not spoke about mages freedom. Elthina was passive, she showed no interest toward Kirkwall only toward eternity.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 22:21:04 GMT
Did you forget that the College is completely independent from the Chantry under Divine Leliana? As far as I'm aware the "Under Divine Leliana" part means there is no real Chantry oversight, but they are still funding the College. The "lucrative teat" as it were. Unless the Mages suddenly sprouted trade skills, or grew some replacement tranquil in the College Garden (after killing or abandoning most of their old ones when they left the Circles), they have no viable source of income! Hell even if they had Tranquil they have no source of Lyrium to make enchantments because the Chantry controls the Lyrium trade! YAY!!! You can eat books, but they aren't all that healthy for you. Also, the Templars were drugged and corrupted without their knowledge or consent. Their leader was a Envy Demon replacement. The Mages sold themselves willingly to a Tevinter Death cult due to an "implied" threat of Templars and then while presumably still in their right minds (again unlike the Templars) under Cory's orders attacked Haven ... and then while doing so Fiona has the gall to blame you for their situation. Even right before the end ... that woman cannot hold herself accountable for anything. EDIT: Also, are the mages really that stupid? Did they really think that the Templars are so utterly thirsty for Mage Blood they would openly attack Redcliffe (which has a castle so tough the Inquisition couldn't have hoped to take it even with so few Tevinter guards) and inherently declare war against all of Fereldon? The King/Queen/Both had openly stated their protection of any Mage in Redcliffe, they put them there because it is one of the single most defensible positions in their entire nation. Hell its one of the toughest nuts to crack in the entire world from what I'm aware. No matter how much paranoid nonsense the Tevinter agents were "Grima Wormtongue-ing" into the Rebel's ears the Templars weren't coming ... they really weren't! Your safe, stop being so stupid ... no, seriously, stop! Uhh....no? Yes and no? The whole thing was reliant on deception, but when Envy started distributing "new lyrium" to the troops, no one stuffed it down their throats. They chose to drink it, and chose to continue drinking it. From dialogue with Varric we know that Red Lyrium has obvious effects even if you don't ingest it. Voices, irritation, itching, etc. The obvious ill-effects alone should have tipped them off that something was off. So I wouldn't say they didn't have "knowledge" either. At the very least they had to have an inkling. They knew the stuff they were drinking was more powerful than the blue stuff they're used to, but also with new and obvious side-effects. They just chose not to question it and obeyed orders because they had faith in their leadership. Debatably, they acted just as stupidly as the Mages (most factions get the stupid treatment in DAI) at taking the Venatori's word. The Templars however, decided "not to question" and chose to imbibe the red lyrium that was being distributed to them. It was their choice to be ignorant, just as it was their choice not to question their superiors. And even if they were ignorant on the effects of red lyrium, why not call out the higher tiers of the order for acting so strangely? But no, even Barris noticed how the leaders were keeping them from their responsibilities and chose to follow order--no matter how strange--anyway. At least until the Inquisitor arrived. That was part of why things went tits up as soon as the Herald arrived, the Templars were supposed to have been changed by that time, but instead they were forced "to purge the questioning knights".
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 22:38:50 GMT
Uhh....no? Yes and no? The whole thing was reliant on deception, but when Envy started distributing "new lyrium" to the troops, no one stuffed it down their throats. They chose to drink it, and chose to continue drinking it.From dialogue with Varric we know that Red Lyrium has obvious effects even if you don't ingest it. Voices, irritation, itching, etc. The obvious ill-effects alone should have tipped them off that something was off. So I wouldn't say they didn't have "knowledge" either. At the very least they had to have an inkling. They knew the stuff they were drinking was more powerful than the blue stuff they're used to, but also with new and obvious side-effects. They just chose not to question it and obeyed orders because they had faith in their leadership. Debatably, they acted just as stupidly as the Mages (most factions get the stupid treatment in DAI) at taking the Venatori's word. The Templars however, decided "not to question" and chose to imbibe the red lyrium that was being distributed to them. It was their choice to be ignorant, just as it was their choice not to question their superiors. And even if they were ignorant on the effects of red lyrium, why not call out the higher tiers of the order for acting so strangely? But no, even Barris noticed how the leaders were keeping them from their responsibilities and chose to follow order--no matter how strange--anyway. At least until the Inquisitor arrived. That was part of why things went tits up as soon as the Herald arrived, the Templars were supposed to have been changed by that time, but instead they were forced "to purge the questioning knights". The only Lyrium Envy was sending them was the "new lyrium" and last I checked most Templars require a constant source of that magical meth to keep their powers in top tier shape and not to suffer from extreme withdrawal symptoms. They weren't in any rush to stop being Templars like Cullen was, so they took what they were given. The stuff ate the from the inside out and corrupted them down the line, with Envy starting with the Templar leadership who in turn (when they finally lost all mental acuity) corrupted those in positions beneath them. As for whether they knew or not ... that is rather unclear. The Red Lyrium seems to not be all that well known as the only shard that was ever used was hidden away or destroyed by Varric, and he nor Cassy were in any position to move around and warn anyone about the substance as 1) Varric was her prisoner, and 2) Neither of them thought they'd ever see it again, let alone in such large quantities. As for disobeying their superiors, well wouldn't that put them in an awkward position? They didn't want to be like the crazy rogue Templars that were rampaging through the countryside and despite their leader's odd they behavior were genuinely waiting for some sort of movement on their part. Following the orders of their superiors is what part of being a "good" Templar is about, they are sort of like soldiers in that way.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 22:47:39 GMT
Uhh....no? Yes and no? The whole thing was reliant on deception, but when Envy started distributing "new lyrium" to the troops, no one stuffed it down their throats. They chose to drink it, and chose to continue drinking it.From dialogue with Varric we know that Red Lyrium has obvious effects even if you don't ingest it. Voices, irritation, itching, etc. The obvious ill-effects alone should have tipped them off that something was off. So I wouldn't say they didn't have "knowledge" either. At the very least they had to have an inkling. They knew the stuff they were drinking was more powerful than the blue stuff they're used to, but also with new and obvious side-effects. They just chose not to question it and obeyed orders because they had faith in their leadership. Debatably, they acted just as stupidly as the Mages (most factions get the stupid treatment in DAI) at taking the Venatori's word. The Templars however, decided "not to question" and chose to imbibe the red lyrium that was being distributed to them. It was their choice to be ignorant, just as it was their choice not to question their superiors. And even if they were ignorant on the effects of red lyrium, why not call out the higher tiers of the order for acting so strangely? But no, even Barris noticed how the leaders were keeping them from their responsibilities and chose to follow order--no matter how strange--anyway. At least until the Inquisitor arrived. That was part of why things went tits up as soon as the Herald arrived, the Templars were supposed to have been changed by that time, but instead they were forced "to purge the questioning knights". The only Lyrium Envy was sending them was the "new lyrium" and last I checked most Templars require a constant source of that magical meth to keep their powers in top tier shape and not to suffer from extreme withdrawal symptoms. They weren't in any rush to stop being Templars like Cullen was, so they took what they were given. The stuff ate the from the inside out and corrupted them down the line, with Envy starting with the Templar leadership who in turn (when they finally lost all mental acuity) corrupted those in positions beneath them. As for whether they knew or not ... that is rather unclear. The Red Lyrium seems to not be all that well known as the only shard that was ever used was hidden away or destroyed by Varric, and he nor Cassy were in any position to move around and warn anyone about the substance as 1) Varric was her prisoner, and 2) Neither of them thought they'd ever see it again, let alone in such large quantities. As for disobeying their superiors, well wouldn't that put them in an awkward position? They didn't want to be like the crazy rogue Templars that were rampaging through the countryside and despite their leader's odd they behavior were genuinely waiting for some sort of movement on their part. Following the orders of their superiors is what part of being a "good" Templar is about, they are sort of like soldiers in that way. Without thinking following the order of your superior is could be very dangerous...
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 22:57:27 GMT
Uhh....no? Yes and no? The whole thing was reliant on deception, but when Envy started distributing "new lyrium" to the troops, no one stuffed it down their throats. They chose to drink it, and chose to continue drinking it.From dialogue with Varric we know that Red Lyrium has obvious effects even if you don't ingest it. Voices, irritation, itching, etc. The obvious ill-effects alone should have tipped them off that something was off. So I wouldn't say they didn't have "knowledge" either. At the very least they had to have an inkling. They knew the stuff they were drinking was more powerful than the blue stuff they're used to, but also with new and obvious side-effects. They just chose not to question it and obeyed orders because they had faith in their leadership. Debatably, they acted just as stupidly as the Mages (most factions get the stupid treatment in DAI) at taking the Venatori's word. The Templars however, decided "not to question" and chose to imbibe the red lyrium that was being distributed to them. It was their choice to be ignorant, just as it was their choice not to question their superiors. And even if they were ignorant on the effects of red lyrium, why not call out the higher tiers of the order for acting so strangely? But no, even Barris noticed how the leaders were keeping them from their responsibilities and chose to follow order--no matter how strange--anyway. At least until the Inquisitor arrived. That was part of why things went tits up as soon as the Herald arrived, the Templars were supposed to have been changed by that time, but instead they were forced "to purge the questioning knights". The only Lyrium Envy was sending them was the "new lyrium" and last I checked most Templars require a constant source of that magical meth to keep their powers in top tier shape and not to suffer from extreme withdrawal symptoms. They weren't in any rush to stop being Templars like Cullen was, so they took what they were given. The stuff ate the from the inside out and corrupted them down the line, with Envy starting with the Templar leadership who in turn (when they finally lost all mental acuity) corrupted those in positions beneath them. As for whether they knew or not ... that is rather unclear. The Red Lyrium seems to not be all that well known as the only shard that was ever used was hidden away or destroyed by Varric, and he nor Cassy were in any position to move around and warn anyone about the substance as 1) Varric was her prisoner, and 2) Neither of them thought they'd ever see it again, let alone in such large quantities. As for disobeying their superiors, well wouldn't that put them in an awkward position? They didn't want to be like the crazy rogue Templars that were rampaging through the countryside and despite their leader's odd they behavior were genuinely waiting for some sort of movement on their part. Following the orders of their superiors is what part of being a "good" Templar is about, they are sort of like soldiers in that way. Much in the same way mages who chose follow Fiona were being "good followers" no? No. They too had a choice and I still condemn them for it even though I sympathies with their reasons. The Templars however had more freedom to either A) rejoin the Chantry as a splinter group (and the chantry still has lyrium) or B: approach the heretical Inquisition and join the Templars there (and also have lyrium). Like the mages I criticize for not trying to seek shelter with the Inquisition, so too do I criticize the Templars for not doing similar actions. Only difference is that unlike mages, Templars are respected and are not people to be shunned. In addition, there was no known battle-zone immediately outside of Therinfal. If they chose to leave Therinfal, try could have done so, their ability to travel would have largely been unhindered provided that no pocket resistance finds them. Unfortunately though, even I know that lyrium withdrawal can be good motivator to stay as soon as they were boxed in, so to speak. The only exceptions being those who were already at Therinfall and later went to the capital of Orlais (the open arms of the Chantry and maybe the Inquisition was right there, guys). We also know Envy was given explicit instructions for he and the turned Templars to remain hidden as long as possible until the others were turned. If I give mages sympathy for being in a dangerous area, being untrained and being scared civilians, then I give Templars the benefit of being loyal soldiers and being drug-reliant. The only difference in my case? I expect much more from the Templars as a military organization, capable of rational thought during stress and dealing with situations as they arise. Basically I treat both as fools, but with the Templars I find myself less sympathetic due to how "better equipped" they were to try a different option as well as having a few fortunate circumstances with which to pursue them. In the end though, I suppose its only a difference in view.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 22:58:23 GMT
Without thinking following the order of your superior is could be very dangerous... Clearly, but the Templar's in Therinfal had no real reason to question the orders given, beyond their leaders acting a little isolationist and strange and their being stuck on hiatus for so long. Its not like their leadership was actively ordering them to do monstrous things that any sane person would question, like ordering them to do the exact same thing all of crazy treasonous Templars out in the Hinterlands were doing. Just be uncomfortable, take this Red Pill instead of you're normal Blue Pill and hang around a giant castle playing around with that strange flag pully system thing they got going on next to the front door. It was only once the majority of the higher ranks were converted to the death Cult and started growing Lyrium based Psoriasis that they really had any way of knowing something was truly wrong. By that point their was only a small faction left to attempt to fight back and free themselves ... If the Inquisitor doesn't show, they actually die in quite a noble manner, desperately fighting to put down the as many as possible of the monsters their former friends and allies had become.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 23:04:01 GMT
It is never specified how much she wanted to change the Circles (as Cassandra and Leliana demonstrate) but yes, she was willing to compromise. And Anders frakked up big time, yes. If she wanted to free the mages, why not did it before? No, Anders was right (only his tool was questionable.) What Anders knew just was: the Divine want an Exalted March against Kirkwall, because of mages. This is not very promising. Leliana also not spoke about mages freedom. Elthina was passive, she showed no interest toward Kirkwall only toward eternity. Because she had only been Divine for five years? Anders was a terrorist. While his cause was sympathetic, he completely undermined his cause and forfeited the moral high ground.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 23:14:07 GMT
Much in the same way mages who chose follow Fiona were being "good followers" no? No. They too had a choice and I still condemn them for it even though I sympathies with their reasons. The Templars however had more freedom to either A) rejoin the Chantry as a splinter group (and the chantry still has lyrium) or B: approach the heretical Inquisition and join the Templars there (and also have lyrium). Like the mages I criticize for not trying to seek shelter with the Inquisition, so too do I criticize the Templars for not doing similar actions. Only difference is that unlike mages, Templars are respected and are not people to be shunned. In addition, there was no known battle-zone immediately outside of Therinfal. If they chose to leave Therinfal, try could have done so, their ability to travel would have largely been unhindered provided that no pocket resistance finds them. Unfortunately though, even I know that lyrium withdrawal can be good motivator to stay as soon as they were boxed in, so to speak. The only exceptions being those who were already at Therinfall and later went to the capital of Orlais (the open arms of the Chantry and maybe the Inquisition was right there, guys). We also know Envy was given explicit instructions for he and the turned Templars to remain hidden as long as possible until the others were turned. If I give mages sympathy for being in a dangerous area, being untrained and being scared civilians, then I give Templars the benefit of being loyal soldiers and being drug-reliant. The only difference in my case? I expect much more from the Templars as a military organization, capable of rational thought during stress and dealing with situations as they arise. Basically I treat both as fools, but with the Templars I find myself less sympathetic due to how "better equipped" they were to try a different option as well as having a few fortunate circumstances with which to pursue them. In the end though, I suppose its only a difference in view. Well one could argue the difference in leadership is what caused the problems for both factions. The Templar's trouble was caused by the fact that they were trained and expected to act as soldiers following orders, which resulted in the entire organization essentially sitting around on their hands waiting to be corrupted. The Mages had no centralized governance or real chain of command, relying instead on Democratic voting to decide what to do ... and Fiona being in charge of implementing their decisions. The issue with True Democracy of course is "Rule by the Mob", which is exactly what happened when they voted in favor of allying with Tevinter due a heightened state of paranoia and fear. Which faction is the bigger fools is mostly up to player perspective I suppose, like you said. I find myself slightly on the Templar side of that line due to them really having no real reason to Question their orders beyond "The Leadership is Acting weird and look like they got Ebola", just as you side with the Mages for you're own reasons. Functionally though as hard as I am on the Mages (partially due to Cat lol), I've come to realize because of this thread that neither faction really is the good guy or bad guy. Both of them made mistakes and at worst they are both victims of the Chantry system, just in different ways. One designed to fix a problem and play the oppressors for those who really set the agenda, and the other is those who became the oppressed because the Chantry didn't know what else to do with Magical individuals. Above all depending on what side you naturally sympathize with they are both demonized by the worst of their kind, and how those individuals actions reflect on the faction as a whole. Just like the Mages there does seem to be far less Bad Templars than Good Ones, but man do the bad ones from both factions really go out of their way to stand out.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 23:17:34 GMT
If she wanted to free the mages, why not did it before? No, Anders was right (only his tool was questionable.) What Anders knew just was: the Divine want an Exalted March against Kirkwall, because of mages. This is not very promising. Leliana also not spoke about mages freedom. Elthina was passive, she showed no interest toward Kirkwall only toward eternity. Because she had only been Divine for five years? Anders was a terrorist. While his cause was sympathetic, he completely undermined his cause and forfeited the moral high ground. Five years is enough for the start. Anders was a revolutioner. While his tools was questionable and desperate, his cause and his goal was good, and this is not changed. What's Elthina's and the Chantry's excuse? The Chantry played a dangerous, cruel game already thousand years.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 22, 2016 23:40:49 GMT
Because she had only been Divine for five years? Anders was a terrorist. While his cause was sympathetic, he completely undermined his cause and forfeited the moral high ground. Five years is enough for the start. Anders was a revolutioner. While his tools was questionable and desperate, his cause and his goal was good, and this is not changed. What's Elthina's and the Chantry's excuse? The Chantry played a dangerous, cruel game already thousand years. For something as big as changing the Circle system, no five years really isn't enough. Or rather, the changes wouldn't have taken effect yet but are in the process of doing so. You can't just change an institution overnight, especially when wanting to do so through peaceful means rather than kill and hurt countless innocent people in war. Call him whatever you want, but Anders is by definition a terrorist because he used the form of warfare known as terrorism to try to achieve his cause. Every single real life terrorist would see themselves as revolutionaries. As the saying goes "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 23:46:08 GMT
Five years is enough for the start. Anders was a revolutioner. While his tools was questionable and desperate, his cause and his goal was good, and this is not changed. What's Elthina's and the Chantry's excuse? The Chantry played a dangerous, cruel game already thousand years. For something as big as changing the Circle system, no five years really isn't enough. Or rather, the changes wouldn't have taken effect yet but are in the process of doing so. You can't just change an institution overnight, especially when wanting to do so through peaceful means rather than kill and hurt countless innocent people in war. Call him whatever you want, but Anders is by definition a terrorist because he used the form of warfare known as terrorism to try to achieve his cause. Every single real life terrorist would see themselves as revolutionaries. As the saying goes "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Yep, her predecessor, Divine Beatrix III ruled the Chantry for fifty years and was a puppet of the Templars. It takes time to undo that. And yes, Anders was a terrorist. He murdered innocents and goaded the Templars to kill more not to strike a blow for his cause, but to fan more flames, to incite more violence.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2016 0:18:12 GMT
Five years is enough for the start. Anders was a revolutioner. While his tools was questionable and desperate, his cause and his goal was good, and this is not changed. What's Elthina's and the Chantry's excuse? The Chantry played a dangerous, cruel game already thousand years. For something as big as changing the Circle system, no five years really isn't enough. Or rather, the changes wouldn't have taken effect yet but are in the process of doing so. You can't just change an institution overnight, especially when wanting to do so through peaceful means rather than kill and hurt countless innocent people in war. Call him whatever you want, but Anders is by definition a terrorist because he used the form of warfare known as terrorism to try to achieve his cause. Every single real life terrorist would see themselves as revolutionaries. As the saying goes "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Okay, you're right, was not enough time. The fact: the change was not seen, also the start. What Anders and Hawke seen: Kirkwall was more cruel than ever and Elthina wait for eternity, much of the Templars also thought Meredith is crazy, yet nothing happened. Yes, Anders used terrorist means, because the speech was not enough. Not at all surprising that this happened. In addition, we don't know what was Justinia's plan.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 23, 2016 1:13:13 GMT
For something as big as changing the Circle system, no five years really isn't enough. Or rather, the changes wouldn't have taken effect yet but are in the process of doing so. You can't just change an institution overnight, especially when wanting to do so through peaceful means rather than kill and hurt countless innocent people in war. Call him whatever you want, but Anders is by definition a terrorist because he used the form of warfare known as terrorism to try to achieve his cause. Every single real life terrorist would see themselves as revolutionaries. As the saying goes "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Okay, you're right, was not enough time. The fact: the change was not seen, also the start. What Anders and Hawke seen: Kirkwall was more cruel than ever and Elthina wait for eternity, much of the Templars also thought Meredith is crazy, yet nothing happened. Yes, Anders used terrorist means, because the speech was not enough. Not at all surprising that this happened. In addition, we don't know what was Justinia's plan. Before the war started, her plan was essentially slow reform. It was sometimes setback by Templar or blood mage interference. But we know that she was trying, and that she was putting her ideas into action if she could. When the war broke out, Justinia worked to create the Conclave which she hoped would end the war and bring peace. In the event that the conclave failed however, Justinia did have a backup plan: the Inquisition. If the conclave failed, she planned to use the Inquisition to bring peace by the sword. If Leliana is to be believed, she may have also planned to use the Inquisition to challenge some of the Chantry's tenants.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2016 3:06:13 GMT
Okay, you're right, was not enough time. The fact: the change was not seen, also the start. What Anders and Hawke seen: Kirkwall was more cruel than ever and Elthina wait for eternity, much of the Templars also thought Meredith is crazy, yet nothing happened. Yes, Anders used terrorist means, because the speech was not enough. Not at all surprising that this happened. In addition, we don't know what was Justinia's plan. Before the war started, her plan was essentially slow reform. It was sometimes setback by Templar or blood mage interference. But we know that she was trying, and that she was putting her ideas into action if she could. When the war broke out, Justinia worked to create the Conclave which she hoped would end the war and bring peace. In the event that the conclave failed however, Justinia did have a backup plan: the Inquisition. If the conclave failed, she planned to use the Inquisition to bring peace by the sword. If Leliana is to be believed, she may have also planned to use the Inquisition to challenge some of the Chantry's tenants. She wanted slowly change. This is not too much and we do not know what it means. In many places there were already riots. This was the reason of the planned Exalted March. It was late for a slowly reform. In addition, It did not look from Kirkwall. In Kirkwall was only despair, and the experience did not show any better.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 23, 2016 4:20:01 GMT
Before the war started, her plan was essentially slow reform. It was sometimes setback by Templar or blood mage interference. But we know that she was trying, and that she was putting her ideas into action if she could. When the war broke out, Justinia worked to create the Conclave which she hoped would end the war and bring peace. In the event that the conclave failed however, Justinia did have a backup plan: the Inquisition. If the conclave failed, she planned to use the Inquisition to bring peace by the sword. If Leliana is to be believed, she may have also planned to use the Inquisition to challenge some of the Chantry's tenants. She wanted slowly change. This is not too much and we do not know what it means. In many places there were already riots. This was the reason of the planned Exalted March. It was late for a slowly reform. In addition, It did not look from Kirkwall. In Kirkwall was only despair, and the experience did not show any better. Later is better than never. No one's arguing that there were a lot of problems within the Circle system piling up. Divine Justinia attempted to bring reform no matter how much opposition the Templars and the revolutionists + blood mages gave her. By all means, Justinia did more than previous Divines on at least attempting to improve mage rights. But she also believed real change cannot be forced unless she was willing to get her hands really dirty (hence why she was willing to resort to the Inquisition as the worst case scenario). Unwilling to cause chaos for the sake of mage rights, she tried to enact reform with the restraints imposed by tradition and politics. That's more than what was being done prior. The Exalted March that she considered calling on Kirkwall? It was only being considered because of the chaos rampant within the city of Kirkwall and the possibility that the mages may revolt and overtake the city--a move that would seem like the beginnings of a new Tevinter Imperium. But as we all know, that exalted march never came. She sent an agent to asses the situation and I guess the report was favorable in their favor. Or she felt that an Exalted March would not be effective at that point in time. Or that maybe it would make matters worse. Point is, it was never invoked. The Divine is not a miracle worker. She can't just speak her vision and expect the rest of the Chantry and Templar Order to follow it. That's why she opted for "slow reform". It was the only viable way to do it unless she was willing to incite violence and chaos herself--which she didn't want to do. That was the worst case scenario and only as a means of last resort (hence why she authorized the Inquisition much later on).
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 23, 2016 4:40:27 GMT
She wanted slowly change. This is not too much and we do not know what it means. In many places there were already riots. This was the reason of the planned Exalted March. It was late for a slowly reform. In addition, It did not look from Kirkwall. In Kirkwall was only despair, and the experience did not show any better. Later is better than never. No one's arguing that there were a lot of problems within the Circle system piling up. Divine Justinia attempted to bring reform no matter how much opposition the Templars and the revolutionists + blood mages gave her. By all means, Justinia did more than previous Divines on at least attempting to improve mage rights. But she also believed real change cannot be forced unless she was willing to get her hands really dirty (hence why she was willing to resort to the Inquisition as the worst case scenario). Unwilling to cause chaos for the sake of mage rights, she tried to enact reform with the restraints imposed by tradition and politics. That's more than what was being done prior. The Exalted March that she considered calling on Kirkwall? It was only being considered because of the chaos rampant within the city of Kirkwall and the possibility that the mages may revolt and overtake the city--a move that would seem like the beginnings of a new Tevinter Imperium. But as we all know, that exalted march never came. She sent an agent to asses the situation and I guess the report was favorable in their favor. Or she felt that an Exalted March would not be effective at that point in time. Or that maybe it would make matters worse. Point is, it was never invoked. The Divine is not a miracle worker. She can't just speak her vision and expect the rest of the Chantry and Templar Order to follow it. That's why she opted for "slow reform". It was the only viable way to do it unless she was willing to incite violence and chaos herself--which she didn't want to do. That was the worst case scenario and only as a means of last resort (hence why she authorized the Inquisition much later on). And lets not forget that if not for the interference of Two Benevolent Forces, the Inquisition and the resulting Chantry under a new Pro-Mage Divine, the majority of the Rebel's population would have been killed or enslaved. There really is no way around the fact that their rebellion would have outright, no questions about it, failed in every single way possible if they had been left to their own devices. Even if it was slower, it does seem like taking a breath, calming down, and working together with the Chantry and a VERY Pro-Mage Divine would have been the intelligent and competent route. Instead they let their emotions get the better of them and they made terrible mistakes one right after another that led to their own destruction. If your looking at the Rebellion purely based off their results ... it really doesn't look good by any stretch of the imagination. Also, I'm not sure if this was a different trip, but I seem to recall that the Seekers were the ones sent to figure out the situation in Kirkwall. Cassandra - “ We knew what was happening at Kirkwall, where the mage rebellion began. We looked into reports of Knight-Commander Meredith’s harsh treatment of her charges years earlier. But we found so many shocking cases of magical corruption, it was decided her actions were justified. If we’d been there when it happened, if we’d looked harder at the root causes…” I could be wrong about that though?
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Post by xerrai on Sept 23, 2016 4:53:23 GMT
Later is better than never. No one's arguing that there were a lot of problems within the Circle system piling up. Divine Justinia attempted to bring reform no matter how much opposition the Templars and the revolutionists + blood mages gave her. By all means, Justinia did more than previous Divines on at least attempting to improve mage rights. But she also believed real change cannot be forced unless she was willing to get her hands really dirty (hence why she was willing to resort to the Inquisition as the worst case scenario). Unwilling to cause chaos for the sake of mage rights, she tried to enact reform with the restraints imposed by tradition and politics. That's more than what was being done prior. The Exalted March that she considered calling on Kirkwall? It was only being considered because of the chaos rampant within the city of Kirkwall and the possibility that the mages may revolt and overtake the city--a move that would seem like the beginnings of a new Tevinter Imperium. But as we all know, that exalted march never came. She sent an agent to asses the situation and I guess the report was favorable in their favor. Or she felt that an Exalted March would not be effective at that point in time. Or that maybe it would make matters worse. Point is, it was never invoked. The Divine is not a miracle worker. She can't just speak her vision and expect the rest of the Chantry and Templar Order to follow it. That's why she opted for "slow reform". It was the only viable way to do it unless she was willing to incite violence and chaos herself--which she didn't want to do. That was the worst case scenario and only as a means of last resort (hence why she authorized the Inquisition much later on). And lets not forget that if not for the interference of Two Benevolent Forces, the Inquisition and the resulting Chantry under a new Pro-Mage Divine, the majority of the Rebel's population would have been killed or enslaved. There really is no way around the fact that their rebellion would have outright, no questions about it, would have failed in every single way possible if they had been left to their own devices. Even if it was slower, it does seem like taking a breath, calming down, and working together with the Chantry and a VERY Pro-Mage Divine would have been the intelligent and competent route. Instead they let their emotions get the better of them and they made terrible mistakes one right after another that led to their own destruction. If your looking at the Rebellion purely based off their results ... it really doesn't look good by any stretch of the imagination. Also, I'm not sure if this was a different trip, but I seem to recall that the Seekers were the ones sent to figure out the situation in Kirkwall. Cassandra - “ We knew what was happening at Kirkwall, where the mage rebellion began. We looked into reports of Knight-Commander Meredith’s harsh treatment of her charges years earlier. But we found so many shocking cases of magical corruption, it was decided her actions were justified. If we’d been there when it happened, if we’d looked harder at the root causes…” I could be wrong about that though? Your mostly right. Several parties were sent to Kirkwall over the years to try and figure out what exactly was going on, it was just in the case of investigating cause for the Exalted March that Leliana was sent. But for the city itself had several investigations--many of them by Seekers. At least one of them was the platoon lead by Cassandra. But the Seekers have also authorized a group dubbed "Band of Three" (consisting of an apostate, Brother Kerowin and Felestia.) to investigate the nature of the veil in Kirkwall, why there were so many blood mages, etc. It seems Kirkwall was one of those cities that had an inordinate number of investigations being directed toward it.
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