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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 16:55:09 GMT
[...] While it doesn't outright say that they made the decision Democratically, the Tevinter went out of their way to propagate discussion amongst the general Rebel population for a reason. If the decision was entirely up to Fiona, why would they do this? This dialogue also implies that it was "their", not "her" decision to make. Plus, Mage decisions in Mage Circles have almost always been decided through a vote. Why would all of a sudden they change their method of governance now? Fiona may have been their leader, but she wasn't their monarch or tyrant, the Mages who supported the leaving of the Circle would never have allowed that shift in power. As a Community, strangely, the Circle Mages were the first to craft a Democratic Society within all of Thedas. Whether they did it as a result of being oppressed and having no alternatives or not, that is something they should truly be proud of. The unfortunate part of a true Democracy however is that it comes with the threat of "Rule of the Irrational Mob" becoming a real issue. Haha, the Circles as the epitome of democracy. Do you have a good sense of humor! Within the Politics of Circle Mage society itself it clearly was. They voted for their own Independence did they not? They've discussed it and other decisions many times as far as I'm aware. If they didn't even have that level of control the Chantry would have denied them right to do that. They would have prevented communication and Mage political factions within the Circles. If they truly were as authoritarian as you seem to be implying, then those things would never have existed! The Mages would never have voted to leave the Circles, they wouldn't be allowed to even gather or consider it.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 17:04:23 GMT
Yes, this is very nice! And true, the mages probably don't want to identify themselves only with one congenital talent, but they are forced, because the people identify them with one congenital talent. What could be a mage? Templar? Carpenter? Farmer? No way. Want a family? No way. They want privacy? Haha! No. Most of them are only mage, as long as people identify them only as a mage. Individual person? When the mages was treated just as an individual person? (You forgot to mention in relation of Vivienne that she a social climber) Nice double standard you have there. The Mages want to define themselves as something other than a Mage and be seen as individuals (though clearly not wanting the accountability factor), but they refuse to see the Templars as individuals and thus refuse to judge them based on an individual basis. YOU want a Mage to be able to have the chance to identify themselves as an individual person, but you refuse that same right to a Templar. Condemning them ALL for what their FACTION is responsible for! You refuse to condemn the Mages as a group for ANYTHING an individual member of the Mages does, meaning you perceive those individuals actions theirs and theirs alone and not reflective of the group (though you still forgive them because "OPPRESSION"), but not the Templars. By your logic a Mage PC by default must forgive their individual actions and save the Rebels because of what their Faction Represents, rather than what the Individual members are actively doing ... While on the other hand considering every individual Templar is apparently unworthy of help and rescue from a Mage, because they all share their Faction's guilt? Even though there are plenty of Templars who did their job exactly like they were supposed to and protected both the Mages and the People as best they could within the restrictions of society. As a result you've created a situation where as long as the Mages remain in a state of oppression anything a Mage does is justifiable and anything a Templar does is condemned. The Templars are tools of the oppressors (the People) and therefore as long as the behave accordance to that, they are always in the wrong. Of course is double standards because this two are not the same. The Templar is a honored, chosen profession, the Mage is a person who have a congenital trait for what they forced to hiding or imply imprisonment. Just give me an example of when I judged a Templar just because s/he is a templar!
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 17:22:35 GMT
Haha, the Circles as the epitome of democracy. Do you have a good sense of humor! Within the Politics of Circle Mage society itself it clearly was. They voted for their own Independence did they not? They've discussed it and other decisions many times as far as I'm aware. If they didn't even have that level of control the Chantry would have denied them right to do that. They would have prevented communication and Mage political factions within the Circles. If they truly were as authoritarian as you seem to be implying, then those things would never have existed! The Mages would never have voted to leave the Circles, they wouldn't be allowed to even gather or consider it.Oh, the prisoners would be able to vote for a person, who will be the senior prisoner. What a boon! Of course, who would not want to live in prison? (But... wait a minute! You said: the Circle Mage society? So we can determine them as a group? Group, which identifies itself as a group because they have a congenital ability?)
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 22, 2016 17:27:53 GMT
Haha, the Circles as the epitome of democracy. Do you have a good sense of humor! Within the Politics of Circle Mage society itself it clearly was. They voted for their own Independence did they not? They've discussed it and other decisions many times as far as I'm aware. If they didn't even have that level of control the Chantry would have denied them right to do that. They would have prevented communication and Mage political factions within the Circles. If they truly were as authoritarian as you seem to be implying, then those things would never have existed! The Mages would never have voted to leave the Circles, they wouldn't be allowed to even gather or consider it. I take it you never read Asunder where those things were taken away and the circles became actual prisons
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 19:25:41 GMT
Show me the actual dialogue showing the alliance with Tevinter was democratic. I've never seen that dialogue you're describing. The only decision that was democratic was rebelling against the circles. Nothing indicates that anyone other than Fiona helped decide the alliance with Tevinter. Fiona when you first meet her in Skyhold. I: "I've been wanting to ask: How exactly did the Venatori take control of Redcliffe?" F: "Mages constantly found there way to us while they were there. Stragglers. Most of them Strangers." F: "I had no way of knowing some were actually Tevinter" F: " They spread whispers, encouraged talk of an Alliance ... and we were desperate" F: "I'm not proud of our choice, but we were certain the Templars were coming. It could have ended far worse". While it doesn't outright say that they made the decision Democratically, the Tevinter went out of their way to propagate discussion amongst the general Rebel population for a reason. If the decision was entirely up to Fiona, why would they do this? This dialogue also implies that it was "their", not "her" decision to make. Plus, Mage decisions in Mage Circles have almost always been decided through a vote. Why would all of a sudden they change their method of governance now? Fiona may have been their leader, but she wasn't their monarch or tyrant, the Mages who supported the leaving of the Circle would never have allowed that shift in power. As a Community, strangely, the Circle Mages were the first to craft a Democratic Society within all of Thedas. Whether they did it as a result of being oppressed and having no alternatives or not, that is something they should truly be proud of. The unfortunate part of a true Democracy however is that it comes with the threat of "Rule of the Irrational Mob" becoming a real issue. You said it yourself, they didn't outright say it was a decision made democratically. We have little e idea how large that "our" she was talking about is or who was involved apart from herself. We can take guesses, but that its. Nothing concrete. As soon as the Circles disbanded and the fraternity system started splintering apart left and right, I can totally see a reason why the 'democratic governance' would change. From what we can tell, their system was not so much direct democracy where every mage cast a vote, but an indirect democracy where representatives represented a particular ideology or section (First Enchanters for Circles and Fraeternity leaders for their parties, in this case). The moment the mage rebellion began, this system was compromised because those representatives were either killed, MIA, forming a different 'faction' (like Vivienne becoming de-facto leader of the loyalists) or were just not interested in making sure their voices were heard by Fiona. Many were more concerned about their pockets of people located elsewhere. Not to mention that wars in general is not really a place where democratic votes are feasible all the time. It's usually councils, advisors, people with strategy or statistics or both. Survival takes precedence over ideals at times. That being said, I am now more inclined to lean toward "Fiona and top members of mage rebellion" instead of "just Fiona and maybe a few others I don't know about?". Thank you for the information. Even more so for confirming where I heard that Fiona was afraid of a Templar attack (I forgot where I heard it from even though I could have sworn I heard it somewhere ). Unfortunately this only reinforced the idea for me that going after the mages to prevent them from doing something foolish is only reinforced. As well as the idea that I should not punish all of them.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 19:34:25 GMT
Within the Politics of Circle Mage society itself it clearly was. They voted for their own Independence did they not? They've discussed it and other decisions many times as far as I'm aware. If they didn't even have that level of control the Chantry would have denied them right to do that. They would have prevented communication and Mage political factions within the Circles. If they truly were as authoritarian as you seem to be implying, then those things would never have existed! The Mages would never have voted to leave the Circles, they wouldn't be allowed to even gather or consider it. I take it you never read Asunder where those things were taken away and the circles became actual prisons That is partially true. In their most ideal state, mages--among themselves at least--can come together and vote through their collection of fraeternities. But the Circles themselves are governed by a tribune of the First Enchanter + Knight Commanders (or is it knight captain?) + Chantry mother(s). But unfortunately it wasn't uncommon for the First enchanter's authority to be undermined in some way. In some cases the Chantry tried to remain as neutral as possible. In such cases, it was entirely possible for Circles to be ruled by something more akin to martial law due to how the Templars may be the dominant power. In the time of Asunder however, the political climate was tricky. The Chantry and Templars alike knew that ideas of rebellion were spreading so the tempars and Chantry alike intentionally ramped up restrictions on the mages to attempt to counter it, thereby overruling the First Enchanter's authority if he/she had different ideas on how to deal with the situation. For the most part, the system was working as intended, but in a really bad time. So while the mages themselves may have democracy in cettain matters, the actuality is that the mages are still subject to the governance imposed by the Templars and Chantry. This includes the ability to put their democratic meetings (meeting of fraternities) on hold or suspending them indefinitely.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 19:35:27 GMT
Within the Politics of Circle Mage society itself it clearly was. They voted for their own Independence did they not? They've discussed it and other decisions many times as far as I'm aware. If they didn't even have that level of control the Chantry would have denied them right to do that. They would have prevented communication and Mage political factions within the Circles. If they truly were as authoritarian as you seem to be implying, then those things would never have existed! The Mages would never have voted to leave the Circles, they wouldn't be allowed to even gather or consider it. I take it you never read Asunder where those things were taken away and the circles became actual prisons THanks in large part to Anders
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 19:43:54 GMT
I take it you never read Asunder where those things were taken away and the circles became actual prisons THanks in large part to Anders Why?
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 19:45:53 GMT
THanks in large part to Anders Why? It was when the explosion of the Chantry happened that word spread to nearly every Circle of what transpired in Kirkwall. This in turn lead to ideas and support of rebellion, which only grew as the months passed. Many like to think of Ander's actions as the "true beginning" or the "first seeds" of the mage rebellion for this reason. It was when responding to these ideas of rebellion that the events of Asunder transpired as they did. The Lord Seeker in particular was becoming particularly worried that rebellion was imminent and needed to be crushed.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 19:46:59 GMT
THanks in large part to Anders Why? Blew up a chantry? Got a a Revered Mother and a lot of innocent Kirkwallers and mages killed? Drove the Knight-Commander completely around the bend so she'd annul a Circle? Confirmed everyone's worst fears of mages?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 19:52:42 GMT
Blew up a chantry? Got a a Revered Mother and a lot of innocent Kirkwallers and mages killed? Drove the Knight-Commander completely around the bend so she'd annul a Circle? Confirmed everyone's worst fears of mages? And so, of course, responsible for all mages. I think this proves that Anders was right.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 19:53:48 GMT
It was when the explosion of the Chantry happened that word spread to nearly every Circle of what transpired in Kirkwall. This in turn lead to ideas and support of rebellion, which only grew as the months passed. Many like to think of Ander's actions as the "true beginning" or the "first seeds" of the mage rebellion for this reason. It was when responding to these ideas of rebellion that the events of Asunder transpired as they did. The Lord Seeker in particular was becoming particularly worried that rebellion was imminent and needed to be crushed. Yup, this is what the Mage's perspective was on the turn of the Kirkwall events. Ander's actions and the predictable reaction/crackdown from the People/Chantry/Templars is what is thought to have been the event that jumpstarted the push for Rebellion and Independence. Blew up a chantry? Got a a Revered Mother and a lot of innocent Kirkwallers and mages killed? Drove the Knight-Commander completely around the bend so she'd annul a Circle? Confirmed everyone's worst fears of mages? AAAANND ... this was the General Population's perspective on those same set of events. It proved and brought to surface every single fear they had about Magic and Mages and they predictably reacted in pressuring the Chantry and the Templars to crack down harder on the Mages in an effort to prevent the same thing from happening again.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 22, 2016 19:55:00 GMT
Blew up a chantry? Got a a Revered Mother and a lot of innocent Kirkwallers and mages killed? Drove the Knight-Commander completely around the bend so she'd annul a Circle? Confirmed everyone's worst fears of mages? Which was done by an apostate, NOT the Circle mages. The templars' actions might as well have confirmed every negative thing that mages thought of the Circle. If the objective was to ease tensions, they failed miserable. Think about it: Mages were angry that a circle was either almost annulled or was annulled for something they were completely innocent of. If the templars can straight up kill mages for something the circle mages didn't even do, what did you think turning the circles into actual prisons would do? Did anyone actually think punishing all mages for something they didn't even do and for the templars screwing up would ever turn out well?
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 19:56:35 GMT
Blew up a chantry? Got a a Revered Mother and a lot of innocent Kirkwallers and mages killed? Drove the Knight-Commander completely around the bend so she'd annul a Circle? Confirmed everyone's worst fears of mages? And so, of course, responsible for all mages. I think this proves that Anders was right. Combined with a blood mage attack on the Divine, the Ghost of the Spire, and Fiona's rabble-rousing?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 20:04:01 GMT
It was when the explosion of the Chantry happened that word spread to nearly every Circle of what transpired in Kirkwall. This in turn lead to ideas and support of rebellion, which only grew as the months passed. Many like to think of Ander's actions as the "true beginning" or the "first seeds" of the mage rebellion for this reason. It was when responding to these ideas of rebellion that the events of Asunder transpired as they did. The Lord Seeker in particular was becoming particularly worried that rebellion was imminent and needed to be crushed. Yup, this is what the Mage's perspective was on the turn of the Kirkwall events. Ander's actions and the predictable reaction/crackdown from the People/Chantry/Templars is what is thought to have been the event that jumpstarted the push for Rebellion and Independence. Blew up a chantry? Got a a Revered Mother and a lot of innocent Kirkwallers and mages killed? Drove the Knight-Commander completely around the bend so she'd annul a Circle? Confirmed everyone's worst fears of mages? AAAANND ... this was the General Population's perspective on those same set of events. It proved and brought to surface every single fear they had about Magic and Mages and they predictably reacted in pressuring the Chantry and the Templars to crack down harder on the Mages in an effort to prevent the same thing from happening again.People are afraid of the Mages' magic. That is why they were imprisoned. What Anders did, he did not with magic. He never abused his power. Why strengthened people's fears from the mages, because Anders blew up the Chantry? Because the mages was oppressed. By the Chantry. The peoples fear from the mages because of Chantry, not because of Anders.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 22, 2016 20:05:50 GMT
And so, of course, responsible for all mages. I think this proves that Anders was right. Combined with a blood mage attack on the Divine, the Ghost of the Spire, and Fiona's rabble-rousing? It's heavily implied the Templars intentionally let the Mage get through to the divine, the ghost incident only happened because the Templars left the real Cole to starve, and the independence vote likely wouldn't have passed if it wasn't for the Templars interfering
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 20:07:44 GMT
And so, of course, responsible for all mages. I think this proves that Anders was right. Combined with a blood mage attack on the Divine, the Ghost of the Spire, and Fiona's rabble-rousing? Oh, this all was Anders' fault? Also he killed Kenny... Bastard!
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Post by xerrai on Sept 22, 2016 20:09:06 GMT
Yup, this is what the Mage's perspective was on the turn of the Kirkwall events. Ander's actions and the predictable reaction/crackdown from the People/Chantry/Templars is what is thought to have been the event that jumpstarted the push for Rebellion and Independence. AAAANND ... this was the General Population's perspective on those same set of events. It proved and brought to surface every single fear they had about Magic and Mages and they predictably reacted in pressuring the Chantry and the Templars to crack down harder on the Mages in an effort to prevent the same thing from happening again.People are afraid of the Mages' magic. That is why they were imprisoned. What Anders did, he did not with magic. He never abused his power. Why strengthened people's fears from the mages, because Anders blew up the Chantry? Because the mages was oppressed. By the Chantry. The peoples fear from the mages because of Chantry, not because of Anders. You think its just the Chantry that spread fear of magic? Not Ancient Tevinter? Not the Blights that were started by magisters? Or the apostates that can wreak havoc on a population? Or mage children accidentally setting barns on fire and probably hurting people? There are many reasons to fear mages just as there many reason to fear those who have power that you can't gain yourself.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 20:16:20 GMT
Yup, this is what the Mage's perspective was on the turn of the Kirkwall events. Ander's actions and the predictable reaction/crackdown from the People/Chantry/Templars is what is thought to have been the event that jumpstarted the push for Rebellion and Independence. AAAANND ... this was the General Population's perspective on those same set of events. It proved and brought to surface every single fear they had about Magic and Mages and they predictably reacted in pressuring the Chantry and the Templars to crack down harder on the Mages in an effort to prevent the same thing from happening again.People are afraid of the Mages' magic. That is why they were imprisoned. What Anders did, he did not with magic. He never abused his power. Why strengthened people's fears from the mages, because Anders blew up the Chantry? Because the mages was oppressed. By the Chantry. The peoples fear from the mages because of Chantry, not because of Anders. Pretty sure whatever Anders did, it was with Magic. That type of explosion where it sucks everything up into a vacuum and then explodes all of it outward after a delay cannot be created with a simple chemical explosion. He may have also used material components to produce the result he did, but it was clearly Magic. Some spells require Material components to do, just look at Alexius' time magic. That amulet he created was needed to pull it off, but it was still Magic. Also ... jeez I wonder why the people of Southern Thedas could fear Magic? Couldn't be that there are genuine reasons for it? I mean ... its not as if they spent a couple Millennia being the Oppressed under a deeply authoritarian Oligarchic Empire led by the small minority of the population who could use Magic? I mean the creation of the Circle's initially couldn't possible have been a result of a deep seeted and valid fear of Magic after living under a Regime that had countless examples of extreme Magical abuses, combined with a very valid concern that Mages would attempt to once again be the Oppressors if given the chance. Nope, all religious dogma ... nothing valid here.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 20:20:58 GMT
People are afraid of the Mages' magic. That is why they were imprisoned. What Anders did, he did not with magic. He never abused his power. Why strengthened people's fears from the mages, because Anders blew up the Chantry? Because the mages was oppressed. By the Chantry. The peoples fear from the mages because of Chantry, not because of Anders. You think its just the Chantry that spread fear of magic? Not Ancient Tevinter? Not the Blights that were started by magisters? Or the apostates that can wreak havoc on a population? Or mage children accidentally setting barns on fire and probably hurting people? There are many reasons to fear mages just as there many reason to fear those who have power that you can't gain yourself. The Free Marches, Ferelden and hte other cities are NOT Tevinter, and even less ANCIENT Tevinter... The Chantry keeps in fear the people for power. The Circles are necessary for education etc. But not suitable for the protection of people, rather dangerous. The Chantry and the Templars cannot prevent of unintentional accidents. However, the Chantry and the Templars able to make accidents with the persecution of innocent, but untrained mages.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 20:24:44 GMT
People are afraid of the Mages' magic. That is why they were imprisoned. What Anders did, he did not with magic. He never abused his power. Why strengthened people's fears from the mages, because Anders blew up the Chantry? Because the mages was oppressed. By the Chantry. The peoples fear from the mages because of Chantry, not because of Anders. Pretty sure what Anders did it was with Magic. That type of explosion where it sucks everything up into a vacuum and then explodes all of it outward after a delay cannot be created with a simple chemical explosion. He may have also used material components to produce the result he did, but it was clearly Magic. Some spells require Material components to do, just look at Alexius' time magic. That amulet he created was needed to pull it off, but it was still Magic. Also ... jeez I wonder why the people of Southern Thedas could fear Magic? Couldn't be that there are genuine reasons for it? I mean ... its not as if they spent a couple Millennia being the Oppressed under a deeply authoritarian Oligarchic Empire led by the small minority of the population who could use Magic? I mean the creation of the Circle's initially couldn't possible have been a result of a deep seeted and valid fear of Magic after living under a Regime that had countless examples of extreme Magical abuses, combined with a very valid concern that Mages would attempt to once again be the Oppressors if given the chance. Nope, all religious dogma ... nothing valid here. Alchemy? Yes. Oh, you fear to Tevinter's Circles? So the Dear-Pro-Circle-Powerhungry Divine Vivienne a pretty way of achieving this!
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 22, 2016 20:30:53 GMT
Alchemy? Yes. Oh, you fear to Tevinter's Circles? So the Dear-Pro-Circle-Powerhungry Divine Vivienne a pretty way of achieving this! MMMMMMMMMAGIC! Edit: Also, pretty sure that killed alot of people looking at it again. That explosion was HUGE. It set buildings on fire for blocks and sent giant boulders at absurdly high speeds all over Kirkwall. Yeah ... people dead.
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Wanted Apostate
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Catilina
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catilina
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 20:48:12 GMT
What kind of magic? Yes, clearly, people died. And people died, because of Chantry too. Often it happens that people die. Also innocents. And nobody interested, when innocent mages died.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,359
Iakus
20,888
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iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 20:52:26 GMT
Combined with a blood mage attack on the Divine, the Ghost of the Spire, and Fiona's rabble-rousing? Oh, this all was Anders' fault? Also he killed Kenny... Bastard! As others have noted, he lit the spark. He "removed the possibility of compromise" He ensured there could be no peaceful resolution or reform.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,888 Likes: 49,359
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402
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,359
Iakus
20,888
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Sept 22, 2016 20:54:59 GMT
You think its just the Chantry that spread fear of magic? Not Ancient Tevinter? Not the Blights that were started by magisters? Or the apostates that can wreak havoc on a population? Or mage children accidentally setting barns on fire and probably hurting people? There are many reasons to fear mages just as there many reason to fear those who have power that you can't gain yourself. The Free Marches, Ferelden and hte other cities are NOT Tevinter, and even less ANCIENT Tevinter... The Chantry keeps in fear the people for power. The Circles are necessary for education etc. But not suitable for the protection of people, rather dangerous. The Chantry and the Templars cannot prevent of unintentional accidents. However, the Chantry and the Templars able to make accidents with the persecution of innocent, but untrained mages. They used to be Tevinter. Their ruins are all over the place. Constant reminders of what they were and could be again. (well that and the Blights) The only nation more hated than Tevinter is the Qunari
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