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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 23:59:24 GMT
Five years later, it's time to say my final words about ME3.
That was my first (and last) game preorder. The hype was immense; even before starting I tried to keep levelheaded to prevent disappointment. But the game was living up to expectations, till Tuchanka at least. When I started Rannoch, I sated feeling a kind of unease: where the hell is Harbinger? What the Crucible really is? Why the Geth are behaving this way? Why we are wasting time here, with so many questions unanswered? The sense of unease just became bigger, as the hours passes; we were fighting freaking Cerberus, wasting time again and again, and there was no real explanation on what the Reapers really were and what the Crucible was!
All the game felt strange. I don't know if it was the lead writer's change. I only felt all the characters were a bit...off. Not like themselves. The narrative structure was kind of surreal as well. I think some people who supported Indoctrination Theory did it not only for the endings, but because of this strangeness.
Priority Earth gave me a sense of dread; I was fine with a hopeless battle, but being railroaded into it without feeling any of ME1 and 2, man, was a bummer.
I don't have to say anything about the endings, the linked video can do it better than me.
To say I was "sad" with my ME3 experience is an understatement. I couldn't understand how they failed so hard with the third act and the finale. The game felt rushed since the beggining, and broke itself apart in its final minutes. All the awe and inspiration of ME1, all ME2' feeling of companionship, the thrill of the suicide mission, gone.
I was bitter for two freaking years. Two. Freaking. Years.
I ranted in the old forums. Told all my gamer and non-gamer friends about its narrative disaster, all the inconsistencies. It was not healthy. It was an obssession, like seeing a trainwreck over and over again. Finally my wife told me to stop going to the forums and stop playing ME3 altogether (I was regularly playing ME3MP at the time; I only finished the game once). I kept myself from playing for almost two years, before stating ME3MP again. Downloaded the Citadel DLC and tried to play it, but I simply couldn't bother. The anger faded away, but I wasn't invested anymore.
I made my peace with ME3 endings. I really did. I can look at all the events that lead to it, and understand why it happened.
But I will never, ever, enjoy them. For me, they will always be a textbook on how to NOT end any story, NOT do things without peer review, and to NEVER disrespect your own source material/ themes/ audience/ soty/ lore/ etc..
With MEA on the horizon, I bid ME3 farewell. You will NOT be missed (except MP, of course!).
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2017 0:11:41 GMT
Good news: you get MP in MEA!
So, yeah, I never had the kind of disappointment. I bought ME1 and ME2 in a Steam bundle deal. I loved them enough to buy ME3. This all happened early last year. I don't believe I had an issue with ME3 at all until I read lots of stuff here. It still doesn't impact me the same way as others and I used MEHEM to give me the happy ending I wanted.
I do understand how an ending can make or break a story. From books, I've had great endings redeem (somewhat, at least) a generally bad or mediocre story. Similarly, I read a book where I hated the ending enough that I thought the story was a waste. Can't say I feel so strongly about the ending of ME3. I've see plenty of problems, and I've headcanoned them all away using Leviathan DLC to poke holes in what the Catalyst says, so I'm at peace with it all. To me, the Catalyst believed what it said but it was deceived by Leviathan programming.
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Post by olimae on Mar 19, 2017 3:29:37 GMT
I just finished the trilogy and I do not hate the ending that much. There are inconsistencies in the catalyst but the solutions seem fitting for what the galaxy was facing at the time. And after meeting Leviathan, I kinda saw it coming that Shepard and many others would have to be sacrificed in the end. Of course, there could have been a happier ending but the developers did not want a sweet happily ever after. They decided on endings where each has its grievances. More like bittersweet & this is a war game. I thought the endings provided all the main characters a closure for all their efforts and sacrifices they made. To me, the catalyst is a benevolent force. Though, catalyst should have provided better explanation for the reapers. I played the games back to back & completed the trilogy within 4 months & it has an ending that warps up most things.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 19, 2017 12:56:47 GMT
Obligatory
Timestamp important
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2017 16:17:55 GMT
To me, the catalyst is a benevolent force. Though, catalyst should have provided better explanation for the reapers. Baffled by this. The Catalyst created the Reapers, which went on to harvest every spacefaring race they could find for a minimum of a billion years (every 50,000 years, so if it's only 1 billion years that's still 20,000 times it's destroyed a lot of sentient beings). Beyond just the harvesting itself, the Reapers also terrorized them beforehand. There was a lot of horror to be seen before the end came. So, no, I can't call them benevolent. Selfish is the actual term and I say that because the goal of the programmers was to protect organic races so that they could serve the Leviathans. If they're dead, they can't serve. This is stated in-game in the Leviathan DLC. You know what benevolent would have been? Watching over the younger races and interceding if synthetics turned on them. Then no one would have had to die, possibly not even the synthetics. Synthetics could have been relocated to places where organics couldn't survive or taught a better way.
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Post by olimae on Mar 20, 2017 15:14:07 GMT
To me, the catalyst is a benevolent force. Though, catalyst should have provided better explanation for the reapers. Baffled by this. The Catalyst created the Reapers, which went on to harvest every spacefaring race they could find for a minimum of a billion years (every 50,000 years, so if it's only 1 billion years that's still 20,000 times it's destroyed a lot of sentient beings). Beyond just the harvesting itself, the Reapers also terrorized them beforehand. There was a lot of horror to be seen before the end came. So, no, I can't call them benevolent. Selfish is the actual term and I say that because the goal of the programmers was to protect organic races so that they could serve the Leviathans. If they're dead, they can't serve. This is stated in-game in the Leviathan DLC. You know what benevolent would have been? Watching over the younger races and interceding if synthetics turned on them. Then no one would have had to die, possibly not even the synthetics. Synthetics could have been relocated to places where organics couldn't survive or taught a better way. Perhaps I have used a word that is too positive for the Reapers. For me they are not evil, they are neutral. The Reapers did what they were created to do & they continued until they completed it. Because they are synthetics, they do not have emotions like organics. So the horrors they brought onto life did not affect them. For me, the ones who are the most responsible & selfish is Leviathan. They were the ones who created Catalyst and when things went out of control, they hid. Despite the fact that Leviathan had the power to control lesser species, they used thralls to help them remain hidden than to find ways to stop the Reapers & find a better solution. They sat in the dark and watched (perhaps with popcorn) the birth & death of hundreds of races over millions of years...until one little human kicked them off the sofa. The Reapers allowed Shepard to destroy them when they believe they have reached the end of their purpose unlike Leviathan who wants to survive & continue to assert themselves as the apex of all races. No one had to die, if Leviathan was more careful & fought as hard as Shepard to fix it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 23:11:56 GMT
That means you used both MEHEM AND an optional DLC (Leviathan) to make it bearable.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 20, 2017 23:28:40 GMT
olimae: Understood. Makes sense. Not exactly absolving the Reapers (who are trapped by their programming) but instead placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Leviathan because they were too unimaginative to come up with a solution that your average gamer could.
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Post by olimae on Mar 21, 2017 5:49:18 GMT
That means you used both MEHEM AND an optional DLC (Leviathan) to make it bearable. I didn't use the mod. I have Leviathan & it is an important narrative & without it I would feel lost. Wonder why it is not in the main game.
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Post by riders on Mar 21, 2017 11:00:15 GMT
Regarding the point of the threatstarter, that mass effect is all about working together and comon humanity and that the ending killed it:
I agree that that is what ME is about. The ending however offered to make peace with your enemy and cooperate with them too.
To me its the way this is done. Shepard is not in controle. Ghostly Starchild is. And shepard is never confronting him about the horrors he created. Without that no emotional karthasis. No closure.
How do you guys feel about it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 12:50:49 GMT
Regarding the point of the threatstarter, that mass effect is all about working together and comon humanity and that the ending killed it: I agree that that is what ME is about. The ending however offered to make peace with your enemy and cooperate with them too. To me its the way this is done. Shepard is not in controle. Ghostly Starchild is. And shepard is never confronting him about the horrors he created. Without that no emotional karthasis. No closure. How do you guys feel about it? Eventually making peace with one's enemies is the goal of war. One makes peace either by annihilating them, decimating them to a point where your culture controls their culture, or by making a treaty with them. There has never been another solution to a war throughout history... why should Mass Effect have come up with anything different?
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Post by riders on Mar 21, 2017 13:15:00 GMT
Regarding the point of the threatstarter, that mass effect is all about working together and comon humanity and that the ending killed it: I agree that that is what ME is about. The ending however offered to make peace with your enemy and cooperate with them too. To me its the way this is done. Shepard is not in controle. Ghostly Starchild is. And shepard is never confronting him about the horrors he created. Without that no emotional karthasis. No closure. How do you guys feel about it? Eventually making peace with one's enemies is the goal of war. One makes peace either by annihilating them, decimating them to a point where your culture controls their culture, or by making a treaty with them. There has never been another solution to a war throughout history... why should Mass Effect have come up with anything different? Any conflict can be solved by reconsilliation/cooperation. After a long bloody war its just unlikely because noone is willing to talk to the other anymore. Shepard was a leader who made peace where he could (geth/quarians). There are real life books about real life conflicts and wars being solved by a mediators and reconsiliation. its just not mainstream media, not what´s "normal". On the one hand its logicial that he tries cooperation/reconsilliation with his enemy, too. Yet starchild dictates the terms. there was no real talk between them, no connection, no carthasis about all the pain shepard experienced though the losses. Its like when you have to get along with your enemy, even thought he never appoligized or even sees the problem with his behavior. All that pain that the reapers have created has never been resolved, it feels like being turned around 100% and all your intuition says no, there is something really wrong here. Either kill them, afterall, or have a real reconsilliation. With logic that makes sense. AND WITH EMOTIONAL KARTHASIS. (= Empathy for both sides, seen the humaness in one another - if thats possible for reaper, with edi it was possible to a certan degree) The brutality that tares on apart, is that the player remained stuck in between.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 15:50:50 GMT
Eventually making peace with one's enemies is the goal of war. One makes peace either by annihilating them, decimating them to a point where your culture controls their culture, or by making a treaty with them. There has never been another solution to a war throughout history... why should Mass Effect have come up with anything different? Any conflict can be solved by reconsilliation/cooperation. After a long bloody war its just unlikely because noone is willing to talk to the other anymore. Shepard was a leader who made peace where he could (geth/quarians). There are real life books about real life conflicts and wars being solved by a mediators and reconsiliation. its just not mainstream media, not what´s "normal". On the one hand its logicial that he tries cooperation/reconsilliation with his enemy, too. Yet starchild dictates the terms. there was no real talk between them, no connection, no carthasis about all the pain shepard experienced though the losses. Its like when you have to get along with your enemy, even thought he never appoligized or even sees the problem with his behavior. All that pain that the reapers have created has never been resolved, it feels like being turned around 100% and all your intuition says no, there is something really wrong here. Either kill them, afterall, or have a real reconsilliation. With logic that makes sense. AND WITH EMOTIONAL KARTHASIS. (= Empathy for both sides, seen the humaness in one another - if thats possible for reaper, with edi it was possible to a certan degree) The brutality that tares on apart, is that the player remained stuck in between. The catalyst does not dictate the terms... telling someone it is within their power to destroy you utterly is not dictating terms neither is telling someone that they can control you as they see fit. To make a treaty, the parties have to work towards understanding each other and when the war between is so ingrained, it literally takes a change in their cultural DNA to make it work. A treaty, by default, means that the defeated party gets to "dictate" some terms. We've not be able to resolve world peace in our society for millennia... why is it on Bioware to propose to it's fan base an ideal way to resolve that very issue. Bioware gave 3 choices - all as unpalatable in some way as they are in reality. There is no emotional catharsis for war... no way to make it "right." The fan base continually demands that 1) they be allowed to play an evil Shepard and 2) that Bioware somehow condones that by offering up an ideal, emotionally satisfying solution to a bitter, bitter war that furthermore lets Shepard live on as a hero... all the while complaining that the story made Shepard too much of a hero. Sorry, but it's the fans that are being illogical and unreasonable about this ending to a game... and they've remained this way for five long years... unwilling to let it go, seeking petty revenge, etc. etc. Well, this time round, they might have just succeeded in killing the company... no more Bioware RPGs and we all lose... collateral damage... just like the ME3 ending.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 21:56:08 GMT
Great video about ME3!
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Post by rainbowhawk1993 on Mar 28, 2017 0:12:51 GMT
I bid ME3 farewell. You will NOT be missed (except MP, of course!). Well I'm going to miss it because ME3 was my favorite of the series despite what everyone says. I didn't have a problem with the ending because there was foreshadowing about a hard choice that needed to be made: "Ten Billion People over here die so twenty billion over there can live. Are we up for that? Are you?" "I would risk non-functionality for him, and my core programming should reflect that." "Sounds like you've found a little bit of humanity EDI. Is it worth defending? ... to the death." Of course I had the privilege of getting on the train a year after ME3 was released and I got all the DLC so I never suffered what fans experienced firsthand and I curved my expectations from the General news I heard before getting into the franchise. But the thing is, when I'm not around people who declare BioWare public enemy number one and endlessly insults them and their fans for being stupid ignorant BioDrones who are dehumanized endlessly, I look for the diamonds in the rough of a rushed project BioWare pour their heart and soul into and couldn't get 100% right and I extrapolate the themes they were going for and share them with others to give them a sense of some closure and even happiness dispite the missteps, (ME2 was the biggest misstep for me but I don't hate BioWare for that.) I did my part to make things great on my end here: m.fanfiction.net/s/10284927/1/Also about those Diamonds in the rough, here's a large one that one of my friends showed to the world. I think it's worth taking a look at just for a moment without anger.
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Post by DragonEffect on Mar 28, 2017 4:23:22 GMT
I really didn't care about the ending. After understanding what was the main conflict of the story, it didn't matter which ending I chose. The game tried to pass a sense of inevitability about the fate of organic races. Creating AI was part of their natural evolution. And after each civilisation reached its pinnacle - where AI technology was as developed as it could be - and started entering a period of decline, every civilisation was doomed to disappear in an entropic process.
The Reapers were an imperfect solution to the inevitable demise of organic life. It was an attempt to halt the natural course of evolution before the entropic process started.
In the end, I realised none of Shepard's choices mattered. Even Synthesis, supposedly the best of both worlds, wasn't an ideal solution, since merging synthetic and organic life could have disastrous consequences. So that's how I enjoyed the game. It was the journey to understand the Reapers' existence, their transcendent understanding of organic life and considerations on a pessimistic view of natural evolution conditioned to the development of AI and the possible effects it could have on the evolution of life itself.
Of course, the game isn't perfect. Things like Kai Leng were deeply annoying. Not to mention the generalistic dialog, which could be summed up by characters constantly complaining about the tragedy of war and how they felt unprepared to face it (except for Wrex, who's been a badass ever since ME 1). But overall, it was an enjoyable experience for me.
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Post by chugster on Mar 29, 2017 13:22:43 GMT
The endings themselves IMO were not that bad when looked at in a vacuum, but when taken with the lies BW told about the ending and your choices affecting the end, the initial lack of closure after the end, which still wasnt enough for the good destroy ending...I needed to know exactly what the breath scene meant...hinting that your Shep could survive but not confirming it was awful.
The 3 choices themselves werent all that bad, but the starchild crap and other nonsense made them feel worse. If it had just been 'build crucible...read manual...pick one of the 3 endings' I would have been ok.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2017 14:25:55 GMT
The catalyst does not dictate the terms... telling someone it is within their power to destroy you utterly is not dictating terms neither is telling someone that they can control you as they see fit. To make a treaty, the parties have to work towards understanding each other and when the war between is so ingrained, it literally takes a change in their cultural DNA to make it work. A treaty, by default, means that the defeated party gets to "dictate" some terms. {/quote] "Pick one of these awful choices or I destroy the galaxy" is dictating terms. "I want to play a game" "I control the Reapers. They are my solution" If the endings are unpalatable, and there is no emotional catharsis, then why play at all? The fans want choices in a game that claimed to offer them. The nerve! I mean, it's not like this was teh same company that created Dragon Age: Origins...oh wait!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 12:59:47 GMT
The catalyst does not dictate the terms... telling someone it is within their power to destroy you utterly is not dictating terms neither is telling someone that they can control you as they see fit. To make a treaty, the parties have to work towards understanding each other and when the war between is so ingrained, it literally takes a change in their cultural DNA to make it work. A treaty, by default, means that the defeated party gets to "dictate" some terms. {/quote] "Pick one of these awful choices or I destroy the galaxy" is dictating terms. "I want to play a game" "I control the Reapers. They are my solution" If the endings are unpalatable, and there is no emotional catharsis, then why play at all? The fans want choices in a game that claimed to offer them. The nerve! I mean, it's not like this was teh same company that created Dragon Age: Origins...oh wait! I repeat - telling someone that it is within their power to utterly destroy you and all kind like you is not "dictating terms." The Crucible was developed by the Alliance and its allies, not the Catalyst... so what it is able to "focus" on is determined by that construction, not the Catalyst. The Crucible, while able to destroy the Reapers, affects all other synthetic life... making that life collateral damage. The Catalyst merely cannot stop that damage from happening should Shepard decide to use the Crucible to destroy the Reapers. The Catalyst is not dictating the terms... the nature of the Crucible dictates that situation.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2017 16:24:06 GMT
That means you used both MEHEM AND an optional DLC (Leviathan) to make it bearable. I didn't use the mod. I have Leviathan & it is an important narrative & without it I would feel lost. Wonder why it is not in the main game. Because it hadn't been written yet.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2017 16:36:54 GMT
Regarding the point of the threatstarter, that mass effect is all about working together and comon humanity and that the ending killed it: I agree that that is what ME is about. The ending however offered to make peace with your enemy and cooperate with them too. To me its the way this is done. Shepard is not in controle. Ghostly Starchild is. And shepard is never confronting him about the horrors he created. Without that no emotional karthasis. No closure. How do you guys feel about it? I think what we discover is that no one is in control. The Catalyst is doing what it was programmed to do, which isn't what its creators actually wanted it to do. The Reapers do what the Catalyst wants, which is of no use to the Reapers themselves. The Catalyst designers don't seem to have agreed with each other about how to handle the situation, and may not have had as much freedom in the design as they wanted; is destroying all AIs a bug or a feature? Shepard's got about as much control over the situation as anyone's ever had since the whole mess got started. Not as much as she'd like to have, but enough to stop the insanity.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 1, 2017 3:55:31 GMT
Never will understand why people draw so much issue with ending. Granted they are not perfect and I could think of a few things that could have been added in that would improve them. But they to me are not even 1/10th as bad as so many seem to make it out to be.
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Post by kalreegar on Apr 1, 2017 12:17:41 GMT
Never will understand why people draw so much issue with ending. Granted they are not perfect and I could think of a few things that could have been added in that would improve them. But they to me are not even 1/10th as bad as so many seem to make it out to be. after EC it's ok. Almost good, if you're willing to accept a few, unexplained things. but before the EC it was real piece of sh*t, IMO.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 1, 2017 18:48:43 GMT
Never will understand why people draw so much issue with ending. Granted they are not perfect and I could think of a few things that could have been added in that would improve them. But they to me are not even 1/10th as bad as so many seem to make it out to be. after EC it's ok. Almost good, if you're willing to accept a few, unexplained things. but before the EC it was real piece of sh*t, IMO. Both have their pros and cons. Before EC they leave a lot more up to the player to decide what happens rather then explicitly telling them what happens.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 3, 2017 15:26:13 GMT
Well, the EC was largely about killing bad interpretations -- interpretations which not only weren't intended, but which weren't even liked by the fans coming up with the interpretations.
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