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Post by Hrungr on Aug 3, 2017 14:37:04 GMT
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 3, 2017 15:40:49 GMT
I don't think 4K textures and 'volumetric stuff' can be put in same category as different body sizes. The fact that players without applicable equipment won't even see it doesn't matter in a world where everybody pays so much attention to ultimate version of the game and how it looks (let's not forget that even Witcher 3 got whacked online for some graphic downgrading - a graphic downgrading that lower-end computers wouldn't be able to handle anyhow). I mean, never-mind that this extends the longevity of the title. Soon enough the 'high-end graphics' will be a standard in industry, only to become low-end a few years later. Nobody will be saying 'this game looks so good all those years later' with something as irrelevant to it as body sizes compared to textures everywhere or any other systems that would need to be sacrificed to bring us variety in this regard. I agree with everything in the post, but just wanted to point out this bit. There is a cap to this. They're not going to keep escalating to 4k standard, then 8k, then 16k, and on and on. There is a limit to the level of detail that the player will notice, and even that is limited to going right up to a stone wall and sticking your face in it, which isn't how people play. At a certain point, texture size isn't going to add anything except game bloat. |
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Post by Avejajed on Aug 3, 2017 15:46:42 GMT
I'd rather have a more expansive choice in skin color, hair options, eye colors, freckles, etc etc than be able to make my elf fat. I'm perfectly content to let my female characters have great figures. DAI cc was loads better than Andromeda but still could use improvement on options. I second being more concerned with armor and clothing varieties. And I'd like for once to play a fucking mage who wears pants.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 3, 2017 15:55:59 GMT
Jeff The Toaster fieldflux My coworkers caught me singing about nullreferenceexceptions in C# today. I think I've gone crazy
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 3, 2017 15:58:13 GMT
I don't think 4K textures and 'volumetric stuff' can be put in same category as different body sizes. The fact that players without applicable equipment won't even see it doesn't matter in a world where everybody pays so much attention to ultimate version of the game and how it looks (let's not forget that even Witcher 3 got whacked online for some graphic downgrading - a graphic downgrading that lower-end computers wouldn't be able to handle anyhow). I mean, never-mind that this extends the longevity of the title. Soon enough the 'high-end graphics' will be a standard in industry, only to become low-end a few years later. Nobody will be saying 'this game looks so good all those years later' with something as irrelevant to it as body sizes compared to textures everywhere or any other systems that would need to be sacrificed to bring us variety in this regard. I agree with everything in the post, but just wanted to point out this bit. There is a cap to this. They're not going to keep escalating to 4k standard, then 8k, then 16k, and on and on. There is a limit to the level of detail that the player will notice, and even that is limited to going right up to a stone wall and sticking your face in it, which isn't how people play. At a certain point, texture size isn't going to add anything except game bloat. I wasn't just talking about increasing textures to 4K, but the whole region of graphics and further improvements on it - lower-end computers are unable to handle more than just textures, but many other effects that make the whole game look better. Besides, we're talking about right here and now. Maybe at some point we're going to reach the cap or at one point or another we'll invent new technologies to deal with increasing demand for the game looking eye-popping - and nobody said that those technologies wouldn't be less demanding in terms of time and effort (or computing power) as creating textures or lighting effects for games in 4k today. Or, who knows, maybe at that point we'd also have technologies that will let animators or character designers work without having to worry about body sizes. One can never tell what will happen in next few years, but right now, it'd appear that we aren't there yet. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 3, 2017 17:20:33 GMT
I'd rather have a more expansive choice in skin color, hair options, eye colors, freckles, etc etc than be able to make my elf fat. I'm perfectly content to let my female characters have great figures. DAI cc was loads better than Andromeda but still could use improvement on options. I second being more concerned with armor and clothing varieties. And I'd like for once to play a fucking mage who wears pants. We got mage pants in DAI... DA2 also had four pant outfits (two were item DLC). As for body sizes, I don't necessarily care for my character, but it does help make the world more diverse. It helps bring verisimilitude to the game, to borrow a DG word. DAO was the only game in the series that had a larger body model used for some NPCs, like Lloyd in Redcliffe, or the "Superman parents" (the only time the larger female figure is used). It would have been real to see a gluttonous Orlesian noble in DAI. In MEA, the males have a slimmer body type, which makes them closer to women in proportion than the human males in DAI. While all men certainly aren't going to be buff, and all women aren't going to be petite, it's a bit jarring to be walking around and see everyone with the same build. I would like custom bodies for this reason: it allows the devs to create a more diverse world. But I don't want them if it comes at the expense of more involved interactive cinematics. That's just me, though. |
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Post by Avejajed on Aug 3, 2017 18:25:28 GMT
Well if they want to make npcs all various shapes and sizes let them. I'd be happier with more diverse skin tones first as I think most games lack enough poc. But I still don't need to have a big female pc option.
However. I would like better female clothes and armors. Maybe we had mage pants but I want cute mage pants. That goes for any pants. I don't need skimpy Girly armor. I want serviceable armor and clothing that also isn't ugly.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 4, 2017 0:46:29 GMT
I'm just going to post this in here for any BioDevs who happen to be reading. I don't expect any sort of a response. The lack of communication about various things from the MEA team has been so very disheartening. More recently, with the news of what has happened at Montreal and how that affects the future of the MEA franchise. Every time a piece of news comes out, like the most recent one about MEA Lead Designer Ian Frazier moving on to another project, it puts the fate of the series in doubt, but we haven't any official word from Bioware itself. All fans want at this point is a confirmation on whether there will, or will not, be any single player DLC. Some of us feel strung along, especially those of us who care nothing for MP. Please DA Team, please don't ever treat your fans this way. It really hurts that these people are counting on our love for their series, and the game, to sustain us and fuel our hope, while giving us nothing at all to strive toward, not a single crumb. |
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Post by Avejajed on Aug 4, 2017 1:37:51 GMT
I don't know what's going on with Andromeda, but I expect that the devs wish they could tell us things but just sincerely aren't allowed to tell us anything. I don't know if Dragon Age devs feel different to me (closer to the fans, more "personal") because I follow DA much more closely and have spoken to many of the DA devs before, but I honestly feel like sometimes they wish they could tell us this or that but simply legally they can not. I just truly don't feel that the Dragon Age devs would fuck us over on purpose, you know? What dev does that? Especially those who interact so much with fans. Like I said, I don't know much about the Andromeda community, but I don't feel like what happened with Andromeda would happen to DA and if it did it wouldn't be any fault of the devs.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 4, 2017 2:01:40 GMT
Could just hire more people to do the work, though. That's also an option. Then the time/effort cost doesn't matter so much. As someone pointed out, it takes time and effort, and ultimately money, to make the 4k textures or volumetric stuff that players without the applicable equipment won't even see. Being able to animate to an acceptable degree is only a matter of priority and what they're willing to spend the money on. and creativity can slash the costs like with all the shortcuts/body-type neutral moments the IB romance was developed with to be able to do it. Most of the time the camera angles and body positioning was such that it rendered the actual relative heights of the characters moot. (Or the dwarf got a barrel/box to sit on. lol) Didn't Epler have to work late to get the IB romance cutscenes working? It didn't sound like they were bodytype-neutral, it sounded like most of them had to be painstakingly adjusted by hand. Forget height, Bull has a lot of skin-to-skin (or near skin-to-skin) contact, so small species differences in arm/torso/head width would presumably mean a lot of adjustments. There's no invisible crate trick for holding an arm or giving a hickey without obvious clipping. The skin contact just has to work. Besides, even camera angle cleverness has to be inspected for each species/gender to confirm it's not too obvious and doesn't create other issues for the scene. Yeah he did work late into the night. I can only imagine what the original IB content was that he had to work that hard to get it not clipping with everyone else. But, if I remember the romance scenes right, there's a lot of closeups during the skin to skin contact so that the actual contact is off camera, with the part that's in the shot just suggesting it, like the scene where he holds the Inq's arms above their head in the room. There is of course the "hand on cheek" moment just before they are hilariously interrupted, but I don't think that would have to worry about clipping quite as much as looking like he's grasping something. I'm not knocking the use of shortcuts and camera tricks. I think its creative and a show of ingenuity given Epler was apparently on his own and thus very limited with how much attention he could feasibly give it all. I'm saying that those same tricks, if they baulk at the cost of hiring more people, can be used to curb overall costs cus they'll save time. Don't have to make the hands grasping hands not clip, just have to get the arm position right and then use a closeup. It takes less time, and if you have a bigger animation team, you'll be able to accomplish even more using those tricks if you absolutely have to use them. But I still think that getting a bigger team would be the most beneficial way to do this. |
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 4, 2017 2:05:25 GMT
Could just hire more people to do the work, though. That's also an option. Then the time/effort cost doesn't matter so much. As someone pointed out, it takes time and effort, and ultimately money, to make the 4k textures or volumetric stuff that players without the applicable equipment won't even see. Being able to animate to an acceptable degree is only a matter of priority and what they're willing to spend the money on. and creativity can slash the costs like with all the shortcuts/body-type neutral moments the IB romance was developed with to be able to do it. Most of the time the camera angles and body positioning was such that it rendered the actual relative heights of the characters moot. (Or the dwarf got a barrel/box to sit on. lol) I don't think 4K textures and 'volumetric stuff' can be put in same category as different body sizes. The fact that players without applicable equipment won't even see it doesn't matter in a world where everybody pays so much attention to ultimate version of the game and how it looks (let's not forget that even Witcher 3 got whacked online for some graphic downgrading - a graphic downgrading that lower-end computers wouldn't be able to handle anyhow). I mean, never-mind that this extends the longevity of the title. Soon enough the 'high-end graphics' will be a standard in industry, only to become low-end a few years later. Nobody will be saying 'this game looks so good all those years later' with something as irrelevant to it as body sizes compared to textures everywhere or any other systems that would need to be sacrificed to bring us variety in this regard. Also... please. I beg of you. Don't use the "creativity can slash the costs" argument, because I as a professional graphic artist can only sigh at it. At one point or another there's no overcoming of cost, time and effort that needs to be put in with vaguely-defined 'creativity' - and we're talking about a piece of work that has many moving parts and many other systems and features that need to be considered, properly budgeted and executed. Also, because it's relevant to the point brought here: There's a saying in project management: you can't hire 9 women to have a baby in 1 month. At a certain point, adding extra people doesn't add any extra speed. The tasks can't be subdivided any further, and the overhead of subdividing them outweighs any benefits from having more people working on them. That goes double if a project is already in progress - for their first few months, new hires are a drain on productivity, because others need to help them get up to speed. Yes there is a point where more hands on deck isn't helpful. But I don't think setting up animation rigging is one of them. If you have an organized team, I don't see how it can not be beneficial to have more people to assign scenes to. If Epler had had that during the IB stuff, he would have had to work fewer overtime hours. Assuming he was willing to delegate either the IB stuff or some other character's scenes to the extra people, of course. |
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 4, 2017 2:31:15 GMT
Yes there is a point where more hands on deck isn't helpful. But I don't think setting up animation rigging is one of them. If you have an organized team, I don't see how it can not be beneficial to have more people to assign scenes to. If Epler had had that during the IB stuff, he would have had to work fewer overtime hours. Assuming he was willing to delegate either the IB stuff or some other character's scenes to the extra people, of course. Different body sizes don't just affect animations in cinematics. Combat animations can be affected too, among others. Then there are armors - why do you think Solas looked like a weird alien in Qunari armors or why guys had weird proportions when being dressed in armor that was initially Calpernia's attire? Why elves had those strange broken arms? What's more, this doesn't just affect animation team - all of this stuff has to be tested. The reason they've added new - and limited - PJs to Skyhold almost at the last moment was because all of this stuff had to be ran through their Q&A team. And that was for body types already in the game. If they have more money to assign more people to do scenes, my preference would be to create more or better scenes rather than adjust the same animation to do different body sizes. |
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 4, 2017 4:38:31 GMT
Quinton O'Connor @quintonoconnnor
As a long-time FF and BioWare fan, something I've wondered for years. Did FF12 inspire your approach to DAI's "regionalized" open world?
Mike Laidlaw @mike_Laidlaw
Nope, but it sure inspired DAO's tactics menu.
The regional open world was simply us wanting a wide variety of visual palettes to play with.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 4, 2017 5:02:32 GMT
Alli @jawsisinmywcJust curious, is there a lore reason why not all of the elves in the Temple of Mythal were mages? Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Even in ancient times, not all elves were of equal ability, in terms of raw power or in terms of being able to cast while in combat. Metagame reasoning of course is that enemy groups made entirely of mages are really unfun to fight. 
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 4, 2017 10:35:07 GMT
Surely the reason is the Veil? If elves were of varying ability then those with weaker magic would have lost their abilities after the Veil, whilst those who did not were reduced in power. I thought that was the whole point of the conversation at Haven with Solas when he confirms that at one time every elf did have magical ability and then his confession in Trespasser when he admits he is the reason why that is no longer the case. (If it only affected modern elves long after the event and not the ancient ones, what is Solas' problem seeing as he and Abelas do not see modern elves as proper elves anyway?) Also there is that codex from the Temple of Mythal which is presumably written by Abelas in which he categorically states "We are trapped. Those who were born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost."
Now admittedly he could just be talking about being trapped in the Temple by their enemies but they seem to be able to get out okay when people approach the Temple, so I assumed he meant they were trapped the wrong side of the Veil and unable to use the eluvian to get to the elven in-between world that they had created. Also, whilst he is principally talking about the loss of Mythal, he could also mean that those born here (presumably post Veil) do not understand how different they are from what the Elders were.
I find it a bit disturbing that the Lead Writer should have to excuse the inability of the sentinels to use magic in the way he does (particularly metagaming) when I would have thought there was a perfectly reasonable explanation from what Solas did. I actually think the metagaming excuse is somewhat lame. If an opponent group IS meant to be made up exclusively of mages then they SHOULD all be using magic in some form or other regardless of the fairness or enjoyment of fighting them. That would simply be part of the challenge in defeating them.
Of course if the sentinels aren't all mages that does raise the question of how did they enter uthenera in the first place to survive down to the present? I think there are a few bits of lore they need to iron out concerning the nature of the ancient elves who have survived to the present day and what exactly it is that they are lacking from how they were in ancient times. If the Veil didn't cause them to lose their magic, why are modern elves so different? |
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 4, 2017 13:06:30 GMT
Alexis Kennedy 🕯️ @alexiskennedy
in which I continue not to say certain things I haven't said: tho the full colour of @mike_Laidlaw's analogy was lost in translation
PCGamer: Alexis Kennedy's part in next Dragon Age will 'immediately look familiar to anyone who's played Fallen London, Sunless Sea'www.pcgamer.com/alexis-kennedys-part-in-next-dragon-age-will-immediately-look-familiar-to-anyone-whos-played-fallen-london-and-sunless-sea/?utm_content=buffer27131&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer-pcgamertw"I was given considerable creative freedom to work on a particular bit of the lore, which I think is a bit of the lore that people might guess that I would be drawn to. I suspect that when the project that was described reaches the light of day—which another writer has taken over and will do a lot more work to make it their own—people will probably look and say: yes, that's obviously the Kennedy bit."
Beyond that, Kennedy remains expectedly tight-lipped. Speaking directly to the so-called "Kennedy bit", though, he expects those well acquainted with the oddness of his past Failbetter works to feel at home.
He adds: "Unless it's ironed out by the challenges and vicissitudes of AAA production, a part of the game will immediately look familiar to anyone who's played Fallen London and Sunless Sea. There will definitely be that oddness visible in there."
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 4, 2017 13:37:05 GMT
Thom ⚔🎲 🛫gamescom @icotom
They still let you do interviews? Fools!
Alexis Kennedy 🕯️ @alexiskennedy
cain't nobody stop the Kennedy doing interviews
(actually I pre-cleared the last one)
(anyway I'm not at Bioware now I'm full-time on CS!)
- CS: Cultist Simulator
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 4, 2017 14:01:27 GMT
Alli @jawsisinmywcJust curious, is there a lore reason why not all of the elves in the Temple of Mythal were mages? Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Even in ancient times, not all elves were of equal ability, in terms of raw power or in terms of being able to cast while in combat. Metagame reasoning of course is that enemy groups made entirely of mages are really unfun to fight. And here I was thinking they were really advanced arcane warriors. "I hope they would be proud to see another of our people practicing their techniques." "Uhhhh... I hope so as well." Flash forward to the temple of Mythal"How did you do that??" "What now, shemlen?" "You- you materialized an entire fucking bow out of midair! It looks like a real bow!" "Of course it does. What else would a bow look like?" *bow shimmers and vanishes, revealing the staff underneath* *staff glows in the shape of an ornate elven bow, brighter and brighter until the staff disappears again* "By the way, shemlen, why are you waving that shapeless mass of golden light around? Have you developed a leak?" |
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 4, 2017 14:20:59 GMT
Richard Cobbett @richardcobbett
Still hoping it involves the Fade, which has always been conceptually much cooler than any of the games make it in practice. Hypothetically.
Alexis Kennedy @alexiskennedy
you don't find the Fade
burnt out
then?
Richard Cobbett @richardcobbett
"Looking back to yesterday
When we were young, so unafraid
Then a giant fucking spider appeared
Or so to non-Qunari eyes it seemed-"
Alexis Kennedy 🕯️ @alexiskennedy
never challenge Cobbett to a battle of puns and or pop culture humour
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Post by blighted on Aug 4, 2017 14:41:40 GMT
Alexis liked these... Hmmm...
Alice Bell @babygotbell
PLACE BETS for what @alexiskennedy's bit of 'secret Dragon Age project' is? I am saying: dwarves and lyrium and that.
amber @juliabaccari
i really enjoyed the last court, and DA stuff like the black city/hlta or the deep roads cannibalism is my fave, so i am wicked excited.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Aug 4, 2017 14:47:05 GMT
Surely the reason is the Veil? If elves were of varying ability then those with weaker magic would have lost their abilities after the Veil, whilst those who did not were reduced in power. I thought that was the whole point of the conversation at Haven with Solas when he confirms that at one time every elf did have magical ability and then his confession in Trespasser when he admits he is the reason why that is no longer the case. (If it only affected modern elves long after the event and not the ancient ones, what is Solas' problem seeing as he and Abelas do not see modern elves as proper elves anyway?) Also there is that codex from the Temple of Mythal which is presumably written by Abelas in which he categorically states "We are trapped. Those who were born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost."
Now admittedly he could just be talking about being trapped in the Temple by their enemies but they seem to be able to get out okay when people approach the Temple, so I assumed he meant they were trapped the wrong side of the Veil and unable to use the eluvian to get to the elven in-between world that they had created. Also, whilst he is principally talking about the loss of Mythal, he could also mean that those born here (presumably post Veil) do not understand how different they are from what the Elders were.
I find it a bit disturbing that the Lead Writer should have to excuse the inability of the sentinels to use magic in the way he does (particularly metagaming) when I would have thought there was a perfectly reasonable explanation from what Solas did. I actually think the metagaming excuse is somewhat lame. If an opponent group IS meant to be made up exclusively of mages then they SHOULD all be using magic in some form or other regardless of the fairness or enjoyment of fighting them. That would simply be part of the challenge in defeating them.
Of course if the sentinels aren't all mages that does raise the question of how did they enter uthenera in the first place to survive down to the present? I think there are a few bits of lore they need to iron out concerning the nature of the ancient elves who have survived to the present day and what exactly it is that they are lacking from how they were in ancient times. If the Veil didn't cause them to lose their magic, why are modern elves so different? Patrick Weekes didn't say there were ancient elves who had no magic. He said that ancient elves didn't all have equal amounts of magical ability. Some were more powerful than others, and some couldn't handle the complexity of casting magic in a combat situation, but were probably perfectly capable of waving their hands to produce food, clean their houses, or whatever. Which makes sense, because you have the Evanuris who were a cadre of extremely powerful mages, and nobles who were probably less powerful than the Evanuris, enslaving elves who probably had only minor abilities for magic. If everyone were as powerful as the Evanuris, you wouldn't see such a social stratification, I think. It isn't an idea that is mutually exclusive to yours. The elves with less magic may be the ones who ended up with no magic after the Veil went up, exactly as you suggest. The sentinels may all have some magical ability, but not all can use it in combat. And I'm not sure that you have to be a mage to enter uthenera. We know that everyone who dreams is in the Fade while they dream. This may or may not be related, since we don't really know the mechanism of entering uthenara yet, but this passage in the Vir Dirthara might suggest that it was something that could be achieved through long meditation and enlightenment. |
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 4, 2017 15:41:06 GMT
Alexis Kennedy 🕯️ @alexiskennedy
in which I continue not to say certain things I haven't said: tho the full colour of @mike_Laidlaw's analogy was lost in translation I do pride myself on colorful analogies. Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrahThey are the Gaius Marius to my Scipio Africanus |
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 4, 2017 15:46:10 GMT
Patrick Weekes didn't say there were ancient elves who had no magic. He said that ancient elves didn't all have equal amounts of magical ability. Some were more powerful than others, and some couldn't handle the complexity of casting magic in a combat situation, but were probably perfectly capable of waving their hands to produce food, clean their houses, or whatever. Which makes sense, because you have the Evanuris who were a cadre of extremely powerful mages, and nobles who were probably less powerful than the Evanuris, enslaving elves who probably had only minor abilities for magic. If everyone were as powerful as the Evanuris, you wouldn't see such a social stratification, I think. It isn't an idea that is mutually exclusive to yours. The elves with less magic may be the ones who ended up with no magic after the Veil went up, exactly as you suggest. The sentinels may all have some magical ability, but not all can use it in combat. And I'm not sure that you have to be a mage to enter uthenera. We know that everyone who dreams is in the Fade while they dream. This may or may not be related, since we don't really know the mechanism of entering uthenara yet, but this passage in the Vir Dirthara might suggest that it was something that could be achieved through long meditation and enlightenment. ...That kinda makes me wonder just how effing powerful the mages from Veiled world would be in the Veilles. If lifting of the Veil means that those with minuscule magical talent can go back to being somewhat magical again, then it follows that those capable of magic in Veiled world will suddenly be able to move mountains. That is, of course, unless returning to Veilles world means that the sudden flow of magic would just be too much to handle for people not used to wield that much power. To add to your point - Fen'harel's message in his sanctuary explicitly tells people that Evanuris are mortals just like others, they're just powerful with magic. Even in Veiled world there exist mages who can barely cast (Minaeve, supposedly Felix). Solas is also very bitter about Vivienne "lording her mystique over those not so gifted" only to imply that in 'another age' she might have ruled an Empire. That certainly supports the notion that some people were just more powerful/talented than others and likely created a whole class system out of that. Of course, it's also possible that there are not just only strata of power, but people may be talented in different kinds of magic. Dreamer magic, for example, is somewhat different than just casting spells during combat. Some were probably really good healers, while some others had different talents. |
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 4, 2017 18:26:49 GMT
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 4, 2017 18:35:09 GMT
Stephanie Roberts @drstephroberts'Deep down, I knew it didn't happen': The woman whose memory invented a murder story t.co/UxNrSgUUip Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesI read up on techniques for memory alteration when writing Bull in DAI. Fatigue and revisiting with prejudicial questions can do A LOT.
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