I don't know what that would accomplish. There's been more than enough attempts to clarify what David Gaider meant and yet people STILL come around to this erroneous conclusion that David Gaider hates dwarves.
Besides, what does he need to apologize for? His joke isn't offensive; people are just making a mountain out of a molehill.
The apology is for trolling the fandom or for a joke in bad taste, take your pick. All he had to do was add "JUST KIDDING" or some other disclaimer, given the knowledge of what the fandom gets up to.
Bioware has every right to be proud of their efforts towards diversity and fair representation. In that context, the joke is in bad taste.
Jesus, what's in bad taste? I don't think we need to worry about offending the fantasy race of short people who live underground and eat nugs.
This is coming from the same place of wounded but ultimately misplaced rage that fuels the "Elves=PoC; how dare Bioware portray elves somewhat badly in DAI" rants on Tumblr. Calm your tits.
The apology is for trolling the fandom or for a joke in bad taste, take your pick. All he had to do was add "JUST KIDDING" or some other disclaimer, given the knowledge of what the fandom gets up to.
Bioware has every right to be proud of their efforts towards diversity and fair representation. In that context, the joke is in bad taste.
Jesus, what's in bad taste? I don't think we need to worry about offending the fantasy race of short people who live underground and eat nugs.
This is coming from the same place of wounded but ultimately misplaced rage that fuels the "Elves=PoC; how dare Bioware portray elves somewhat badly in DAI" rants on Tumblr. Calm your tits.
C'mon now, insult me as much as you want, just don't put me in the same category as Tumblr.
What I'm saying is that Bioware can't have it both ways. They pride themselves in being inclusive and in supporting diversity. That being the case, don't make jokes about minorities, even if they are completely fictional minorities. Particularly since none of the societies in Bioware games are created from wholecloth. There's a bit of social commentary on our own society mixed into all of the fantasy ones -- as it should be. That's kind of a hallmark of good writing.
Look, this doesn't have to be a moral debate. Consider it purely from a business standpoint. Say 20% of your customer base is a bunch of rabid morons. What's the upside to antagonizing them? As enjoyable as it may be to punish the fools, it's bad for business.
Last Edit: Oct 6, 2016 21:00:02 GMT by PapaCharlie9
Inquisitor: Is that innuendo? Sera: No, it's at the front!
What I'm saying is that Bioware can't have it both ways. They pride themselves in being inclusive and in supporting diversity. That being the case, don't make jokes about minorities, even if they are completely fictional minorities.
That's the very definition of a slippery slope in my encyclopedia. When we declare "We can't say anything bad about our entirely fictional creations for fear of offending someone," it is opening the door to not being able to say anything at all.
If 20 per cent of the Dragon Age fandom are fools who can't take a joke, then they should be called out for being fools who can't take a joke. If they're that sensitive, then whether or not they're lost is not a question of "if", but rather "when."
Jesus, what's in bad taste? I don't think we need to worry about offending the fantasy race of short people who live underground and eat nugs.
This is coming from the same place of wounded but ultimately misplaced rage that fuels the "Elves=PoC; how dare Bioware portray elves somewhat badly in DAI" rants on Tumblr. Calm your tits.
What I'm saying is that Bioware can't have it both ways. They pride themselves in being inclusive and in supporting diversity. That being the case, don't make jokes about minorities, even if they are completely fictional minorities. Particularly since none of the societies in Bioware games are created from wholecloth. There's a bit of social commentary on our own society mixed into all of the fantasy ones -- as it should be. That's kind of a hallmark of good writing.
It's one thing to be inclusive and supporting diversity and another being so overly paranoid that every fictional minority would have to be treated like a real one. Besides, dwarves were NOT shown to be just an 'oppressed minority', but a society with significant problems. We see in DAO that Orzammar is a hellhole where the highborn dwarves treat Casteless no better or perhaps even worse than humans treat elves in alienages.
See, this is a good thing about fictional people - you can actually portray them as communities with problems without worrying that someone might take it too personally or accuse the creators of mischaracterization. It's a tool that helps us examine certain ideas or scenarios with critical eye. This is why Thedosian dwarves aren't perfect. This is why humans or elves aren't perfect. And it's perfect that way.
Look, this doesn't have to be a moral debate. Consider it purely from a business standpoint. Say 20% of your customer base is a bunch of rabid morons. What's the upside to antagonizing them? As enjoyable as it may be to punish the fools, it's bad for business.
You realize that "20% of moron customer base" or maybe more ain't really some minorities with feelings hurt but, say, rabid misogynists or antgi-LGBT folks and guys who don't like that Cassandra's face is 'too manly'? I mean, how many times did we hear them ranting about inclusivity in DA titles, among other things? You're saying that we should honor their opinion 'because it's good for business' too?
No. That's just completely backwards. I do agree that an author or a company should at least keep in mind what they're doing and what reactions they could potentially get, even if just for the sake of not muddling one's story or its message, but we can't live in the extremes of either not giving a f*** about anybody's feelings *or* letting people stomp on creators' heads, plainly because they project themselves too much either into one character or a group of people in the story... to a point that even creator's tongue-in-cheek response to some assumptions about his feelings on his creation becomes an issue.
There's also another thing - if it was just Gaider joking out of nowhere I'd probably agree with you. Thing is Bioware devs, especially Dragon Age ones, are known for their bit of a cheeky sense of humor. Only recently Patrick Weekes, Mark Darrah and Milke Laidlaw joked around on Twitter after a worried fan asked them about potential appearance of Solas in future DA games. They've pretended they don't know who he's talking about, clearly making fun of the fact that it's pretty much 99,99% sure that Solas will be featured in DA4, so people shouldn't worry much about it.
Should Solas's fans be up in arms about it, because the joke could be misunderstood as creators truly hand-waving a character that is not only dear to some people's hearts, but seems to be at the center of whole DA story? Should that fan be upset that the devs have approached his question humorously? It's fortunate that this fan had a sense of humor too and we've all treated this exchange with lightheartedness it should've been treated. It's no different with Gaider's comment, especially that he didn't just leave it on its own, unaddressed, but explained on other occasions - in depth and detail - why certain romances didn't make it into their games... at least yet.
Last Edit: Oct 7, 2016 9:24:08 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
To be honest, I don't think that DG ever fully grasped that every little thing he says will be taken as is unless it's explicitly stated otherwise. He created a Tumblr to post some of his personal musings and talk about game development in a general sense, but got inundated with DA comments and questions, some of which he answered.
Moving away from this particular dwarf issue, look at that time he made a remark about the time span of DAI lasting three years, which he later had to clarify was a misunderstanding; for a while, the fandom was abuzz with that seeming reveal -- "DAI spans three years!" It has happened again and again and again. He makes a joke, he makes a sarcastic remark, he excoriates a fan (whether deserved or undeserved), and people take it seriously because of who he is and his place in the Dragon Age franchise. We had a phrase, "Word of Gaider," standing in for "Word of God." What he said was IT, especially when it came to lore and characters.
I'm sorry if he couldn't deal with that responsibility, or was unprepared for it, but he put some of that on himself by responding as he did. Yes, a HUGE part of that reaction rests on the fandom, but not ALL of it.
Last Edit: Oct 7, 2016 13:34:27 GMT by Nightscrawl
Mountains. Cold. "Let's bring Dorian!" It's good to be Champion!
I'm not very good at debate about real life issues so this will be awkward.
But my fuzzy thoughts on the matter are... They created fictional races and get to explore racism/classism/ etc without the back lash that characterization of an Earth Minority would have.
To then say that that same freedom from ties to Earth Minorities gives us the freedom to then ...have a free pass to give in to our prejudices and express them with a, "This is a fictional race in a video game, so it's okay," mentality...
What I see is real life prejudices projected onto a fictional race. I am not uncomfortable for the fictional race; I don't think it's my job to protect them. I am uncomfortable with the projection from a real life person in a modern world having those sorts of feelings. If they project those feelings onto a fictional race, they have those feelings in real life. So, I react that part of the person's comments and it was never a defense for the fictional race.
I've already looked into the whole David Gaider thinks dwarves are gross thing. I accept his reasoning; In development initially, the art of the female dwarves just made them look like stocky children. He is strongly not attracted to children, I think we can all agree that that is a normal response. Brains are weird things, his brain latched onto that idea, and now he will never find the idea of dwarf romances to be cute/desireable/enjoyable. I was capable of looking into this "scandal" once and ignoring it forever onward. I guess most fans just don't bother to put in the same effort or are more interested in keeping the idea that DG is a jerk. One can't argue with an opinion. I think DG should just ignore it going forward, he isn't even in the DA franchise anymore.
So, I find it a bit childish for him to bring it up again? Like.. I've only been in the DA universe only 7 months and even I think it's a dead horse. Can't imagine keeping it alive in my head since 2009.
Vegan, Year 1 of Med School. Zevran, Fenris, Cullen, and Thane.
Look, this doesn't have to be a moral debate. Consider it purely from a business standpoint. Say 20% of your customer base is a bunch of rabid morons. What's the upside to antagonizing them? As enjoyable as it may be to punish the fools, it's bad for business.
You realize that "20% of moron customer base" or maybe more ain't really some minorities with feelings hurt but, say, rabid misogynists or antgi-LGBT folks and guys who don't like that Cassandra's face is 'too manly'? I mean, how many times did we hear them ranting about inclusivity in DA titles, among other things? You're saying that we should honor their opinion 'because it's good for business' too?
You make a good point -- Bioware has clearly taken some positions that antagonize certain groups, and they do so intentionally with an understanding that the business cost is worth the moral position. I get that. I guess what I was trying to get at is that for actions that are not part of that deliberate moral high ground, give some thought to the business impact.
I do agree that an author or a company should at least keep in mind what they're doing and what reactions they could potentially get, even if just for the sake of not muddling one's story or its message, but we can't live in the extremes of either not giving a f*** about anybody's feelings *or* letting people stomp on creators' heads, plainly because they project themselves too much either into one character or a group of people in the story... to a point that even creator's tongue-in-cheek response to some assumptions about his feelings on his creation becomes an issue.
THAT is what I was trying to say. Particularly "for the sake of not muddling one's story or its message". If I've used bad examples, that's on me. I'm not talking about PC self-censorship, I'm talking about choosing a battle (diversity) and not doing anything that distracts from that moral high ground, given that there are already opposing groups that are going to hate everything you say even if it's all on point and deliberate. Don't help those opposing groups with dumb jokes that upset your supporters unnecessarily or thoughtlessly.
Then, on top of that, also don't open new battlefronts thoughtlessly that are bad for business. Like, you know, trolling loyal fans for no reason than to be a snarky asshole.
There's also another thing - if it was just Gaider joking out of nowhere I'd probably agree with you. Thing is Bioware devs, especially Dragon Age ones, are known for their bit of a cheeky sense of humor. Only recently Patrick Weekes, Mark Darrah and Milke Laidlaw joked around on Twitter after a worried fan asked them about potential appearance of Solas in future DA games. They've pretended they don't know who he's talking about, clearly making fun of the fact that it's pretty much 99,99% sure that Solas will be featured in DA4, so people shouldn't worry much about it.
Should Solas's fans be up in arms about it, because the joke could be misunderstood as creators truly hand-waving a character that is not only dear to some people's hearts, but seems to be at the center of whole DA story? Should that fan be upset that the devs have approached his question humorously? It's fortunate that this fan had a sense of humor too and we've all treated this exchange with lightheartedness it should've been treated. It's no different with Gaider's comment, especially that he didn't just leave it on its own, unaddressed, but explained on other occasions - in depth and detail - why certain romances didn't make it into their games... at least yet.
I agree with everything you said, except for "It's no different from Gaider's comment." It is qualitatively different, because of the subject matter, the racial and sexual politics I've mentioned before.
I'm not saying that Bioware should never dare tweet a joke, that would be silly. But the "slippery slope" evildude mentioned works both ways. Every joke or tease or trolling of the fandom has risk associated with it. All I'm asking is that Bioware give it some thought, is it worth the risk and/or can the risk be mitigated with a simple disclaimer? It's thoughtless stuff that seems funny at the time that gets them in trouble.
Maybe this will help clarify where I'm coming from: a company I used to work at encouraged us to interact with customers through social media and the in-house support forum. Very similar setup v.v. Bioware and our fandom. There was only one rule: remember that everything you say and do represents the company. There was no PR group approving and scrubbing every thing we posted, we were on the honor system and self-monitored. This worked really well and we were able to give a human face to, usually, the problems customers were dealing with. And as many times as I wanted to make fun of something dumb some customer did or said, or as many times as I wanted to argue with some customer about a factually incorrect statement about our products, I didn't. There was no upside to doing so. Also, when customers would literally beg for information about the schedule for the next produce release or bug fix they'd been waiting for, I never teased them about it. I always very respectfully told them I wasn't allowed to talk about future releases or bug fix schedules, with apologies. I never trolled these people, because I could sympathize with the pain of their waiting.
Don't get the idea we were saints, either. Whenever a customer would post something particularly dumb, or some hater would post a particularly moronic rant, we'd circulate it internally for lulz.
Comparing that experience with what Bioware does every day, on this very thread, I have to shake my head. I'm all for having a sense of humor, but not at the expense of your own customers. It's just dumb. That is, exclusive of the moral high-ground positions already discussed: I have no problem with Bioware antagonizing the blatant racists, sexists and homophobes in the customer base.
Last Edit: Oct 7, 2016 19:18:30 GMT by PapaCharlie9
Inquisitor: Is that innuendo? Sera: No, it's at the front!
John Epler @eplerjc TFW you realize you just called aarynflynn 'dude' out of reflex alone. I also blame @patrickweekes for reasons I can't yet define.
Hmmm, does this mean they're already programming things and out of pre-planning? (I have no idea how game development works)
It could have been something as simple as Notepad that crashed. There really isn't anything significant that can be divined from a tweet like that except that he's at work doing work.
Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrah Today was a good day. Thank you to everyone worried about me.
Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrah And to @patrickweekes who has used the assumed chaos of my demise to submit 1000s of dollars of Lego expenses (presumably) Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes /crosses "Mark's last request was for me to get this" off expense request
Last Edit: Oct 8, 2016 19:42:01 GMT by githcheater
John Epler @eplerjc: Having been in this industry for a while, one thing has proven out, time and time again. Success belongs to the team, and failure belongs to leadership. No game is a one-person show, or even close.
