Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons...

Geitenneuker
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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 2:09:35 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by Geitenneuker on Mar 23, 2017 2:09:35 GMT

There are many cases of this; the Black Widow is inferior to the Vanquisher, the Ushior pistol is trash and the list goes on and on. Some are ok, such as the PAW but there is little reason to want them. I had (have) the misfortune of having a Valiant VIII and it is inferior to most rare snipers. I hope the developers can buff some of these weapons in time.

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2017 10:32:57 GMT by Geitenneuker

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 2:12:52 GMT SalMasRac, missileglitcher, and 1 more like this

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Post by P51Mus7ang on Mar 23, 2017 2:12:52 GMT

Same thing in ME3, some of the N7's just did not cut it

I Rage Gel...

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 2:12:59 GMT SalMasRac, P51Mus7ang, and 1 more like this

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Post by victornero7 on Mar 23, 2017 2:12:59 GMT

Yeah sadly this is kinda true. Im already doing gold with friends and someone told me that the PAW (ULTRA RARE) is trash, while my THOKIN (RARE) is so far the best AR I have seen

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 2:19:14 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 23, 2017 2:19:14 GMT

Wait, which version of the vanquisher are you comparing it too? If it is a decent level vanquisher, and Black Widow 1. Of course it will be better.

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 4:06:56 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by Cyberzombie on Mar 23, 2017 4:06:56 GMT

Yeah due the way the power increases polynomially your high rank rares should be better than your low rank UR's. So it's not until you nearly max your manifest that you can really start using the powerful weapons.

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 4:17:25 GMT via mobile SalMasRac likes this

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Post by sulaco on Mar 23, 2017 4:17:25 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 4:06:56 GMT Cyberzombie said:

Yeah due the way the power increases polynomially your high rank rares should be better than your low rank UR's. So it's not until you nearly max your manifest that you can really start using the powerful weapons.

But the OP has a Valiant 8 which he still feels is inferior to most rare snipers... so something seems to be a little off.

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 7:24:57 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by leafspring on Mar 23, 2017 7:24:57 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 2:19:14 GMT Doctor Fumbles said:

Wait, which version of the vanquisher are you comparing it too? If it is a decent level vanquisher, and Black Widow 1. Of course it will be better.

Both level I - Vanquisher does 60k DPM, Black Widow 50k DPM. If you factor in clip size, you get

Black Widow: 2.3k damage in 3s
Vanquisher: 2.7k damage in 2.6s

And while we're at it- Incisor: 1.7k damage in 1.5s
So if the Incisor has a reload time of 1s or less, it's on par with the BW. It's certainly delivering more burst damage...

This is all preliminary, though. We don't know how the weapons actually work and the damage numbers could potentially be slightly deprecated.

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2017 8:13:47 GMT by leafspring

neocodex and 23 others
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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 7:55:44 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by neocodex and 23 others on Mar 23, 2017 7:55:44 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 7:24:57 GMT leafspring said:

Mar 23, 2017 2:19:14 GMT Doctor Fumbles said:

Wait, which version of the vanquisher are you comparing it too? If it is a decent level vanquisher, and Black Widow 1. Of course it will be better.

Both level I - Vanquisher does 60k DPS, Black Widow 50k DPS. If you factor in clip size, you get

Black Widow: 2.3k damage in 3s
Vanquisher: 2.7k damage in 2.6s

And while we're at it- Incisor: 1.7k damage in 1.5s
So if the Incisor has a reload time of 1s or less, it's on par with the BW. It's certainly delivering more burst damage...

This is all preliminary, though. We don't know how the weapons actually work and the damage numbers could potentially be slightly deprecated.

Well, you also need to account how many shots it takes to get that DPS. Higher damage per single shot is always an advantage. That's why Black Widow was good, while Valiant was never strong enough to reliably one shot something, but it had a bit better sustained DPS.

What I'm saying is, I don't know how the new guns like Vanquisher work, but even if BW has slightly lower DPS that gun is about single shot bursts, which I personally still prefer.

Miaoven Winter
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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 7:56:12 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by Miaoven Winter on Mar 23, 2017 7:56:12 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 7:24:57 GMT leafspring said:

And while we're at it- Incisor: 1.7k damage in 1.5s
So if the Incisor has a reload time of 1s or less, it's on par with the BW. It's certainly delivering more burst damage...

Unfortunately, the Incisor has a kinda painful reload, almost two and a half secs if not longer. D:

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 8:19:44 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by zorinho20 on Mar 23, 2017 8:19:44 GMT

I might be wrong,but in my calculation BW 1 has 832,7 dps and Vanquisher 1 has 1012,5

The stronger they are, the harder I hit!

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 8:23:06 GMT SalMasRac and zorinho20 like this

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Post by leafspring on Mar 23, 2017 8:23:06 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 7:55:44 GMT neocodex and 23 others said:

Mar 23, 2017 7:24:57 GMT leafspring said:

Both level I - Vanquisher does 60k DPS, Black Widow 50k DPS. If you factor in clip size, you get

Black Widow: 2.3k damage in 3s
Vanquisher: 2.7k damage in 2.6s

And while we're at it- Incisor: 1.7k damage in 1.5s
So if the Incisor has a reload time of 1s or less, it's on par with the BW. It's certainly delivering more burst damage...

This is all preliminary, though. We don't know how the weapons actually work and the damage numbers could potentially be slightly deprecated.

Well, you also need to account how many shots it takes to get that DPS. Higher damage per single shot is always an advantage. That's why Black Widow was good, while Valiant was never strong enough to reliably one shot something, but it had a bit better sustained DPS.

What I'm saying is, I don't know how the new guns like Vanquisher work, but even if BW has slightly lower DPS that gun is about single shot bursts, which I personally still prefer.

Single shot it is 770 (BW) vs 670 (V), so they're not that far off. The moment you need more than one shot to take down a target, the Vanquisher is the better choice with 1.85s (BW) vs 1.33s (V).

P.S.: The DPS numbers in my first post are of course DPM, forgot to scale it down.

edit:

Mar 23, 2017 8:19:44 GMT zorinho20 said:

I might be wrong,but in my calculation BW 1 has 832,7 dps and Vanquisher 1 has 1012,5

Interesting. Vanquisher is the same I have but your BW is slightly lower. Did you use actual in-game values?

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2017 8:25:43 GMT by leafspring

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 8:38:55 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by zorinho20 on Mar 23, 2017 8:38:55 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 8:23:06 GMT leafspring said:

Mar 23, 2017 7:55:44 GMT neocodex and 23 others said:

Well, you also need to account how many shots it takes to get that DPS. Higher damage per single shot is always an advantage. That's why Black Widow was good, while Valiant was never strong enough to reliably one shot something, but it had a bit better sustained DPS.

What I'm saying is, I don't know how the new guns like Vanquisher work, but even if BW has slightly lower DPS that gun is about single shot bursts, which I personally still prefer.

Single shot it is 770 (BW) vs 670 (V), so they're not that far off. The moment you need more than one shot to take down a target, the Vanquisher is the better choice with 1.85s (BW) vs 1.33s (V).

P.S.: The DPS numbers in my first post are of course DPM, forgot to scale it down.

edit:

Mar 23, 2017 8:19:44 GMT zorinho20 said:

I might be wrong,but in my calculation BW 1 has 832,7 dps and Vanquisher 1 has 1012,5

Interesting. Vanquisher is the same I have but your BW is slightly lower. Did you use actual in-game values?

I used data from here docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xQXPp08uRH3eWK52_YXJr7UniPfkyNDi8OmHVN6-qjc/edit#gid=1164537895
BW rpm is 65 in that sheet.

edit.
I must correct myself.It should be 835,25 dps [(771*(65/60)]

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2017 8:43:09 GMT by zorinho20

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 8:45:51 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by leafspring on Mar 23, 2017 8:45:51 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 8:38:55 GMT zorinho20 said:

Mar 23, 2017 8:23:06 GMT leafspring said:

Single shot it is 770 (BW) vs 670 (V), so they're not that far off. The moment you need more than one shot to take down a target, the Vanquisher is the better choice with 1.85s (BW) vs 1.33s (V).

P.S.: The DPS numbers in my first post are of course DPM, forgot to scale it down.

edit:
Interesting. Vanquisher is the same I have but your BW is slightly lower. Did you use actual in-game values?

I used data from here docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xQXPp08uRH3eWK52_YXJr7UniPfkyNDi8OmHVN6-qjc/edit#gid=1164537895
BW rpm is 65 in that sheet.

Then your DPS should be 835.25, same as mine.

edit: Just saw your correction, nevermind.

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2017 8:46:21 GMT by leafspring

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 8:48:08 GMT SalMasRac and leafspring like this

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Post by zorinho20 on Mar 23, 2017 8:48:08 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 8:45:51 GMT leafspring said:

Mar 23, 2017 8:38:55 GMT zorinho20 said:

I used data from here docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xQXPp08uRH3eWK52_YXJr7UniPfkyNDi8OmHVN6-qjc/edit#gid=1164537895
BW rpm is 65 in that sheet.

Then your DPS should be 835.25, same as mine.

edit: Just saw your correction, nevermind.

Yeah,rounding numbers is a bitch

The stronger they are, the harder I hit!

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 9:17:04 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by neocodex and 23 others on Mar 23, 2017 9:17:04 GMT

Looking at the sheet BW is indeed underpowered. It should be doing 1K damage per shot at lvl 10 like it did in ME3. Vanquisher is way overstated. It's even lighter than the BW, actually BW is way too underpowered for it's weight and how sluggish it is. Regular Widow is fine, tough, I can't wait to get that one. Still my favorite rifle.

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2017 9:19:59 GMT by neocodex and 23 others

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 9:20:22 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by zorinho20 on Mar 23, 2017 9:20:22 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 9:17:04 GMT neocodex and 23 others said:

Looking at the sheet BW is indeed underpowered. It should be doing 1K damage per shot at lvl 10 like it did in ME3. Regular Widow is fine, tough, I can't wait to get that one. Still my favorite rifle.

Reload is killing her for me.

Also what is deal with Halberd?
Why would anyone use it instead of Mattock? (general question ,not pointed at you)

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2017 9:26:35 GMT by zorinho20

The stronger they are, the harder I hit!

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 9:21:33 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by neocodex and 23 others on Mar 23, 2017 9:21:33 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 9:20:22 GMT zorinho20 said:

Mar 23, 2017 9:17:04 GMT neocodex and 23 others said:

Looking at the sheet BW is indeed underpowered. It should be doing 1K damage per shot at lvl 10 like it did in ME3. Regular Widow is fine, tough, I can't wait to get that one. Still my favorite rifle.

Reload is killing her for me.

Yeah it needs a buff. It's really trash tier atm compared to other rifles, just looking at the numbers it doesn't make sense.

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Post by SentinelBorg on Mar 23, 2017 10:15:28 GMT

Got the PAW yesterday and I was deeply disappointed. The damage and/or clip size is simply too small, at least at tier 1. Also got a Isharay II and this thing really gives the Widow a run for its money. In the N7 category I also got a Naladen I which seems fine, thought I don't know how it works with weak points. But those explosions are really funny to look at.

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 18:16:18 GMT SalMasRac likes this

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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 23, 2017 18:16:18 GMT

I have a lanat 4, and I prefer that over the ones you mentioned. Yes, the one second delay when firing takes some time to get used too, but it has a charge up mechanic which allows me to one shot almost anything.

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 19:07:24 GMT leafspring likes this

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Post by rlro on Mar 23, 2017 19:07:24 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 7:24:57 GMT leafspring said:

Mar 23, 2017 2:19:14 GMT Doctor Fumbles said:

Wait, which version of the vanquisher are you comparing it too? If it is a decent level vanquisher, and Black Widow 1. Of course it will be better.

Both level I - Vanquisher does 60k DPM, Black Widow 50k DPM. If you factor in clip size, you get

Black Widow: 2.3k damage in 3s
Vanquisher: 2.7k damage in 2.6s

And while we're at it- Incisor: 1.7k damage in 1.5s
So if the Incisor has a reload time of 1s or less, it's on par with the BW. It's certainly delivering more burst damage...

This is all preliminary, though. We don't know how the weapons actually work and the damage numbers could potentially be slightly deprecated.

Incisor had a higher DPS on paper than Black Widow on ME3 as well. In reality it was impossible to reach that theoretical DPS level due to its high inaccuracy. It was utter crap without stability consumables and even so it worked decently only on GI and classes with stability bonuses.

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 20:28:37 GMT

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Post by nastrodamus on Mar 23, 2017 20:28:37 GMT

I've been enjoying the Vanquisher quite alot. Kinda disappointed to hear that the BW isn't as good as it was in ME3. My Human FI is really enjoying. the Vanquisher. Maybe in the future the Black Widow will be re-balanced to better. Strange thought on a side note that the disciple seems to be better than ME3 version.

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Most Ultrarares are significantly weaker and less effective than many Rare weapons... Mar 23, 2017 20:35:22 GMT

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Post by neocodex and 23 others on Mar 23, 2017 20:35:22 GMT

Mar 23, 2017 19:07:24 GMT rlro said:

Mar 23, 2017 7:24:57 GMT leafspring said:

Both level I - Vanquisher does 60k DPM, Black Widow 50k DPM. If you factor in clip size, you get

Black Widow: 2.3k damage in 3s
Vanquisher: 2.7k damage in 2.6s

And while we're at it- Incisor: 1.7k damage in 1.5s
So if the Incisor has a reload time of 1s or less, it's on par with the BW. It's certainly delivering more burst damage...

This is all preliminary, though. We don't know how the weapons actually work and the damage numbers could potentially be slightly deprecated.

Incisor had a higher DPS on paper than Black Widow on ME3 as well. In reality it was impossible to reach that theoretical DPS level due to its high inaccuracy. It was utter crap without stability consumables and even so it worked decently only on GI and classes with stability bonuses.

Yes, and it's not just about inaccuracy, but your face time that you are exposing. That is why bursty weapons always have more an advantage in any shooter since you can get back into cover quickly. Less shots needed equals less exposing to danger into less damage taken. You can't be shooting if you're getting hurt or dead. That is why in practice "safe" bursty weapons always work better.

But it's true that BW is severely undertuned right now, and Vanq is overtuned. Both need a change, BW did 923 damage in ME3, I don't understand why would they reduce it. Even the Widow is way better now, while Vanq is kinda broken for it's rarity level.

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2017 20:37:40 GMT by neocodex and 23 others

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