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Post by rpgmaster on Mar 28, 2017 15:31:10 GMT
Combat is not the only form of gameplay though, especially in RPGs. I didn't say it was. I'm more referring to the fact that it's a good thing that Bioware improved the combat from ME1, because ME1's combat was mediocre at best.They may have improved the combat, but to the determent of other aspects of the game. It seems to be me that they focused 80% on combat in ME2,3 & A and 20% to RPG mechanics. If they evened that percentage out a bit I'd be a lot happier.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2017 15:32:18 GMT
Deus Ex: Human Revolution can be completed killing only the bosses. Mankind Divided you can go nonlethal the entire game. There's even an achievement for that.
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Post by dazzarlok on Mar 28, 2017 15:35:10 GMT
Well, how come you're still with us four games later if you don't like combat? Perhaps you thought that you could've reasoned with the Reapers by dialogue mechanics. Yeah, I definitely tried to reason with the Reapers via dialogue, however, after telling the god-AI child that the Geth and Quarians, synthetics and organics, made peace with each other, despite all odds, the little bastard proceeded to not give a crap and I still had to choose one of three colors to end the game with
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Post by dazzarlok on Mar 28, 2017 15:36:44 GMT
I didn't say it was. I'm more referring to the fact that it's a good thing that Bioware improved the combat from ME1, because ME1's combat was mediocre at best.They may have improved the combat, but to the determent of other aspects of the game. It seems to be me that they focused 80% on combat in ME2,3 & A and 20% to RPG mechanics. If they evened that percentage out a bit I'd be a lot happier. Meh, to each their own. I feel there's a nice balance.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Mar 28, 2017 15:37:21 GMT
What rpg does that? Off the top if my head the whitcher has always required combat at some point, every mass effect requires combat at some point, dragon age, bald aura gate, etc etc. you'll have to educate me on this as I don't see RPGs that let you get away without using combat. Even then, bioware emphasized in combat since the start, so it doesn't matter if you like it or not as that's what they want their game to be. Hence the continuation of them improving it game by game. if your issue is getting away from combat andromeda really does that best. You can simply run away from many encounters outside of story mandatory ones to progress the story. fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Completing_Fallout_without_killing_anyoneHuh, never heard of anyone doing that in fallout before. Regardless though as I said earlier bioware encourages combat, they wouldn't upgrade it otherwise. I don't see why it needs to be this way either, especially when the previous games required you to kill people to progress the story. Theres various RPGs as well, they aren't defined by just letting one get away without killing villains in the game. When I think of an rpg, I think of role playing a character, having an inventory system and crafting at my disposal along with the ability to have various dialogue choices with the npcs. Combat is just a good combat is a much preferred bonus as well.
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Post by Cyonan on Mar 28, 2017 15:53:16 GMT
Mass Effect has never been a pure RPG and has always tried to also be a third person shooter as well. It's just that the shooter element was shit in the first game, mediocre in second game, and then finally good in the third game and Andromeda. Personally I'm glad that BioWare decided that they felt the shooter aspect of the game was also important.
I would argue this is the most RPG the series has ever been, unless you consider RPG mechanics to be the skill point system that they had in the first game. Having the 4 different tones gives us more options in dialogue than the Paragon/Renegade system did, and without dialogue being locked to the morality system there is no need to force yourself to go purely down one or the other just to get the better outcomes.
The main RPG areas I think they could improve are 1. More jerk/evil dialogue options just for RP's sake, 2. Cut down on the overall amount of auto-dialogue from Ryder, and 3. Work on having better paraphrasing on the dialogue wheel that actually tells me what the spoken dialogue is(this game seems worse than ME2 and 3 for that).
Also, biotics were broken in ME1 and deserved to be nerfed. They're still fine in ME:A though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 15:54:30 GMT
Mass Effect has never been a pure RPG and has always tried to also be a third person shooter as well. It's just that the shooter element was shit in the first game, mediocre in second game, and then finally good in the third game and Andromeda. Personally I'm glad that BioWare decided that they felt the shooter aspect of the game was also important. I would argue this is the most RPG the series has ever been, unless you consider RPG mechanics to be the skill point system that they had in the first game. Having the 4 different tones gives us more options in dialogue than the Paragon/Renegade system did, and without dialogue being locked to the morality system there is no need to force yourself to go purely down one or the other just to get the better outcomes. The main RPG areas I think they could improve are 1. More jerk/evil dialogue options just for RP's sake, 2. Cut down on the overall amount of auto-dialogue from Ryder, and 3. Work on having better paraphrasing on the dialogue wheel that actually tells me what the spoken dialogue is(this game seems worse than ME2 and 3 for that). Also, biotics were broken in ME1 and deserved to be nerfed. They're still fine in ME:A though. Agreed 100%.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 28, 2017 15:55:32 GMT
Maybe this is more your speed: ...and I'm not saying that to be flippant either. I'm enjoying the game, but I've listened to the audio book twice now and I'd argue that the book is more enjoyable than the game. Still bitter at how Sloane in-game seems to be completely different character to the one I read in the book and loved.
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Post by dlaren on Mar 28, 2017 17:56:51 GMT
Maybe this is more your speed: ...and I'm not saying that to be flippant either. I'm enjoying the game, but I've listened to the audio book twice now and I'd argue that the book is more enjoyable than the game. Still bitter at how Sloane in-game seems to be completely different character to the one I read in the book and loved. I haven't encountered her in-game yet, though I was hoping she'd make an appearance... The other characters in-game persona seem to mostly mirror that of the book, so I'm hoping Sloane isn't too much of a departure from how she was written originally.
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Post by I'm Not Dead Just Yet on Mar 28, 2017 18:02:38 GMT
Well, how come you're still with us four games later if you don't like combat? Perhaps you thought that you could've reasoned with the Reapers by dialogue mechanics. "Why destroy what we can control?"
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 28, 2017 18:05:37 GMT
Still bitter at how Sloane in-game seems to be completely different character to the one I read in the book and loved. I haven't encountered her in-game yet, though I was hoping she'd make an appearance... The other characters in-game persona seem to mostly mirror that of the book, so I'm hoping Sloane isn't too much of a departure from how she was written originally. I just met her in game (the morning after I finished the book). I haven't engaged with her much, but the difference is really jarring, especially since the other characters are spot-on.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 18:07:31 GMT
Well, how come you're still with us four games later if you don't like combat? Perhaps you thought that you could've reasoned with the Reapers by dialogue mechanics. "Why destroy what we can control?" Yup, but until then?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 28, 2017 22:23:25 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda is probably Biowares most RPG RPG in a Mass Effect since the original. Maybe even the best RPG a Mass Effect has ever been. Can you give examples? Inventory system. First in a Mass Effect game since Mass Effect 1. Crafting system. Never been in a Mass Effect game. Classless leveling system...leaving the player to forge virtually whatever combat style they want. Elimination of Paragon and Renegade system and all its baggage plus expanding on the options from say...ME 3. Allowing the player to define their character in small moments and large and the only restrictions are due to story considerations and not gameplay gimmicks. IE your choices in dialog might cause certain characters to like/dislike you, or might cause certain consequences in terms of story...and this is the big one. And a narrative which forces the player to make choices both large and small. And while they have added and expanded on the RPG mechanics from the series I can't think of any they have actively removed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 22:41:47 GMT
Inventory system. First in a Mass Effect game since Mass Effect 1. Crafting system. Never been in a Mass Effect game. Classless leveling system...leaving the player to forge virtually whatever combat style they want. Elimination of Paragon and Renegade system and all its baggage plus expanding on the options from say...ME 3. Allowing the player to define their character in small moments and large and the only restrictions are due to story considerations and not gameplay gimmicks. IE your choices in dialog might cause certain characters to like/dislike you, or might cause certain consequences in terms of story...and this is the big one. And a narrative which forces the player to make choices both large and small. And while they have added and expanded on the RPG mechanics from the series I can't think of any they have actively removed. Nice list. While I appreciate the option to go with an overheating system in lieu of thermal clips, we now have these... supply boxes strewn all about the place. My character can no longer carry a supply of medi-gel, but instead has to rely on finding an appropriate supply box somewhere (or fast traveling to the nearest forward station). The result is that it still sort of feels like Ryder isn't terribly keen on properly preparing for fieldwork.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 28, 2017 22:49:07 GMT
Inventory system. First in a Mass Effect game since Mass Effect 1. Crafting system. Never been in a Mass Effect game. Classless leveling system...leaving the player to forge virtually whatever combat style they want. Elimination of Paragon and Renegade system and all its baggage plus expanding on the options from say...ME 3. Allowing the player to define their character in small moments and large and the only restrictions are due to story considerations and not gameplay gimmicks. IE your choices in dialog might cause certain characters to like/dislike you, or might cause certain consequences in terms of story...and this is the big one. And a narrative which forces the player to make choices both large and small. And while they have added and expanded on the RPG mechanics from the series I can't think of any they have actively removed. Nice list. While I appreciate the option to go with an overheating system in lieu of thermal clips, we now have these... supply boxes strewn all about the place. My character can no longer carry a supply of medi-gel, but instead has to rely on finding an appropriate supply box somewhere (or fast traveling to the nearest forward station). The result is that it still sort of feels like Ryder isn't terribly keen on properly preparing for fieldwork. Ah yeah, I suppose, but I don't really consider that an RPG mechanic per se. Still I think when I do review the game that mechanic isn't going to go down in the 'good' or the 'bad' category more like the 'wtf were they thinking' category...if I have one. Just something I am not having trouble with, on normal, but I think it will be really odd. It just worked so perfectly how they did it in Inquisition and its a bit baffling they decided to mess with it how they did.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 23:00:45 GMT
Nice list. While I appreciate the option to go with an overheating system in lieu of thermal clips, we now have these... supply boxes strewn all about the place. My character can no longer carry a supply of medi-gel, but instead has to rely on finding an appropriate supply box somewhere (or fast traveling to the nearest forward station). The result is that it still sort of feels like Ryder isn't terribly keen on properly preparing for fieldwork. Ah yeah, I suppose, but I don't really consider that an RPG mechanic per se. Still I think when I do review the game that mechanic isn't going to go down in the 'good' or the 'bad' category more like the 'wtf were they thinking' category...if I have one. Just something I am not having trouble with, on normal, but I think it will be really odd. It just worked so perfectly how they did it in Inquisition and its a bit baffling they decided to mess with it how they did. I have some theories. It's pretty obvious why thermal clips came into play - you can shoot more/faster with clips, and people who play a lot of shooters are trained to use a reload mechanism. What isn't so clear is why they are limited as they are. I mean, I think when they were first introduced in ME2, part of the deal was a desire to make the game more difficult by limiting resources. Since then, they've been fairly plentiful, so... why? I really don't get it. Disappearance of medi-gel inventory seems to go hand-in-hand with the removal of the power wheel (that's where it was located on gamepad/controllers). Part (?) of the reason for that was to free up buttons for the jump jets.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 28, 2017 23:10:51 GMT
I wish the Mass Effect games were played by people who enjoyed the Mass Effect games. It seems like many of the posters here (I won't say many people because I know the difference between a vocal minority and the actual fans of a game) want the game to be something that it never was. Mass Effect has always ALWAYS been a third-person shooter RPG. There has never been a way to play the game without killing some things. Sure, there have been certain situations where you can talk your way out of it, but not 100%. And that's the thing about a Role-Playing game. It puts you into the situation and you decide how you want the character to act. But just the character. You don't control anything else, and sometimes you are put in a situation where things must be killed. Example (and spoiler from Habitat 7 at the beginning of the game): When you approach the Kett who have some Hyperion crew mates captive, you can approach them with arms raised saying "We come in peace," or you can shoot first. The role-playing is deciding how Ryder handles the situation. However, you don't get to decide how others handle it, so when they then act you have no choice on how to act. But that doesn't take away from the role-playing. You can totally try to bluff a troll in D&D, but that doesn't mean the troll won't still try to kill you. If you want a game where you can not kill anyone, play Dishonored (which I love, by the way). They have always been clear as to what Mass Effect is. It's fine to want things from a game, but to detract from it because it has never had a capability you want is just...wrong.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 28, 2017 23:15:14 GMT
I wish the Mass Effect games were played by people who enjoyed the Mass Effect games. It seems like many of the posters here (I won't say many people because I know the difference between a vocal minority and the actual fans of a game) want the game to be something that it never was. Mass Effect has always ALWAYS been a third-person shooter RPG. There has never been a way to play the game without killing some things. Sure, there have been certain situations where you can talk your way out of it, but not 100%. And that's the thing about a Role-Playing game. It puts you into the situation and you decide how you want the character to act. But just the character. You don't control anything else, and sometimes you are put in a situation where things must be killed. Example (and spoiler from Habitat 7 at the beginning of the game): When you approach the Kett who have some Hyperion crew mates captive, you can approach them with arms raised saying "We come in peace," or you can shoot first. The role-playing is deciding how Ryder handles the situation. However, you don't get to decide how others handle it, so when they then act you have no choice on how to act. But that doesn't take away from the role-playing. You can totally try to bluff a troll in D&D, but that doesn't mean the troll won't still try to kill you. If you want a game where you can not kill anyone, play Dishonored (which I love, by the way). They have always been clear as to what Mass Effect is. It's fine to want things from a game, but to detract from it because it has never had a capability you want is just...wrong. One of the best posts I have ever read on the nature of RPGs, and the nature of Mass Effect in particular. Very well said.
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Post by rpgmaster on Mar 29, 2017 1:47:06 GMT
I wish the Mass Effect games were played by people who enjoyed the Mass Effect games. It seems like many of the posters here (I won't say many people because I know the difference between a vocal minority and the actual fans of a game) want the game to be something that it never was. Mass Effect has always ALWAYS been a third-person shooter RPG. There has never been a way to play the game without killing some things. Sure, there have been certain situations where you can talk your way out of it, but not 100%. And that's the thing about a Role-Playing game. It puts you into the situation and you decide how you want the character to act. But just the character. You don't control anything else, and sometimes you are put in a situation where things must be killed. Example (and spoiler from Habitat 7 at the beginning of the game): When you approach the Kett who have some Hyperion crew mates captive, you can approach them with arms raised saying "We come in peace," or you can shoot first. The role-playing is deciding how Ryder handles the situation. However, you don't get to decide how others handle it, so when they then act you have no choice on how to act. But that doesn't take away from the role-playing. You can totally try to bluff a troll in D&D, but that doesn't mean the troll won't still try to kill you. If you want a game where you can not kill anyone, play Dishonored (which I love, by the way). They have always been clear as to what Mass Effect is. It's fine to want things from a game, but to detract from it because it has never had a capability you want is just...wrong. When ME1 was released it was very much seen as a watered-down RPG. But that didn't mean that the sequels had to be. Most of the times game sequels try to add and expand upon the first game. I had hoped the sequels would improve the RPG side and make it deeper. They went the other direction. I see no difference in my wanting BioWare to have taken ME in the RPG direction than other people who wanted it to go in a more action direction. Each side is valid. The people who wanted better combat got it, and that's fine. All I am doing it voicing my disappointment. I'm not going to kill an action game fan's dog or something over it.
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Post by rpgmaster on Mar 29, 2017 2:02:21 GMT
Inventory system. First in a Mass Effect game since Mass Effect 1. Crafting system. Never been in a Mass Effect game. Classless leveling system...leaving the player to forge virtually whatever combat style they want. Elimination of Paragon and Renegade system and all its baggage plus expanding on the options from say...ME 3. Allowing the player to define their character in small moments and large and the only restrictions are due to story considerations and not gameplay gimmicks. IE your choices in dialog might cause certain characters to like/dislike you, or might cause certain consequences in terms of story...and this is the big one. And a narrative which forces the player to make choices both large and small. And while they have added and expanded on the RPG mechanics from the series I can't think of any they have actively removed. I don't like classless systems in RPGs. Instead of role-playing they generally allow the user to become a generic overpowered super-mensch with access to every ability in the game. Paragon and renegade was not perfect and neither is the new system. You are essentially limited to a paragon of various degrees. A good RPG dialogue system should have options that allow a wide range of character responses from good to evil to shades in between. Also skill-checks. Is my pathfinder an adventurer, a scientist, a military leader? Things like these should impact and be reflected in dialogue.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Mar 29, 2017 2:31:35 GMT
I wish the Mass Effect games were played by people who enjoyed the Mass Effect games. It seems like many of the posters here (I won't say many people because I know the difference between a vocal minority and the actual fans of a game) want the game to be something that it never was. Mass Effect has always ALWAYS been a third-person shooter RPG. There has never been a way to play the game without killing some things. Sure, there have been certain situations where you can talk your way out of it, but not 100%. And that's the thing about a Role-Playing game. It puts you into the situation and you decide how you want the character to act. But just the character. You don't control anything else, and sometimes you are put in a situation where things must be killed. Example (and spoiler from Habitat 7 at the beginning of the game): When you approach the Kett who have some Hyperion crew mates captive, you can approach them with arms raised saying "We come in peace," or you can shoot first. The role-playing is deciding how Ryder handles the situation. However, you don't get to decide how others handle it, so when they then act you have no choice on how to act. But that doesn't take away from the role-playing. You can totally try to bluff a troll in D&D, but that doesn't mean the troll won't still try to kill you. If you want a game where you can not kill anyone, play Dishonored (which I love, by the way). They have always been clear as to what Mass Effect is. It's fine to want things from a game, but to detract from it because it has never had a capability you want is just...wrong. When ME1 was released it was very much seen as a watered-down RPG. But that didn't mean that the sequels had to be. Most of the times game sequels try to add and expand upon the first game. I had hoped the sequels would improve the RPG side and make it deeper. They went the other direction. I see no difference in my wanting BioWare to have taken ME in the RPG direction than other people who wanted it to go in a more action direction. Each side is valid. The people who wanted better combat got it, and that's fine. All I am doing it voicing my disappointment. I'm not going to kill an action game fan's dog or something over it. I'd really argue Andromeda itself is the closest to an rpg mass effect has ever been. ME1 would be the next best thing but it lacked crafting, a combat system that really took gear into actual consideration(yes it still stat tracked, but not at the level everything after has). The thing is weveach are going to have our own view on what correlates to a genre better. I see people calling Andromeda more if a shooter, I disagree and saw ME2-3 more so as a shooter. I see Andromeda more so as a 50/50 action shooter rpg.
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Post by Addictress on Mar 29, 2017 3:05:08 GMT
Inventory system. First in a Mass Effect game since Mass Effect 1. Crafting system. Never been in a Mass Effect game. Classless leveling system...leaving the player to forge virtually whatever combat style they want. Elimination of Paragon and Renegade system and all its baggage plus expanding on the options from say...ME 3. Allowing the player to define their character in small moments and large and the only restrictions are due to story considerations and not gameplay gimmicks. IE your choices in dialog might cause certain characters to like/dislike you, or might cause certain consequences in terms of story...and this is the big one. And a narrative which forces the player to make choices both large and small. And while they have added and expanded on the RPG mechanics from the series I can't think of any they have actively removed. I don't like classless systems in RPGs. Instead of role-playing they generally allow the user to become a generic overpowered super-mensch with access to every ability in the game. Paragon and renegade was not perfect and neither is the new system. You are essentially limited to a paragon of various degrees. A good RPG dialogue system should have options that allow a wide range of character responses from good to evil to shades in between. Also skill-checks. Is my pathfinder an adventurer, a scientist, a military leader? Things like these should impact and be reflected in dialogue. All the people who don't seem to get what we mean by an RPG should read this ^^^ I sort of felt like Mass Effect: Andromeda was going to be a great RPG in the beginning when outposts were getting established but now that I've finished the game and look back, I really don't think there were enough choices - especially in the side quests. Most importantly, I can't recall more than two conversations that gave you more than two possible dialogue options - I prefer Dragon Age: Origins that gave you at least 4-5 dialogue options for every single conversation (even smaller quests) plus at least two or three (often three) NOTICEABLY different outcomes
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 29, 2017 3:21:34 GMT
I wish the Mass Effect games were played by people who enjoyed the Mass Effect games. It seems like many of the posters here (I won't say many people because I know the difference between a vocal minority and the actual fans of a game) want the game to be something that it never was. Mass Effect has always ALWAYS been a third-person shooter RPG. There has never been a way to play the game without killing some things. Sure, there have been certain situations where you can talk your way out of it, but not 100%. And that's the thing about a Role-Playing game. It puts you into the situation and you decide how you want the character to act. But just the character. You don't control anything else, and sometimes you are put in a situation where things must be killed. Example (and spoiler from Habitat 7 at the beginning of the game): When you approach the Kett who have some Hyperion crew mates captive, you can approach them with arms raised saying "We come in peace," or you can shoot first. The role-playing is deciding how Ryder handles the situation. However, you don't get to decide how others handle it, so when they then act you have no choice on how to act. But that doesn't take away from the role-playing. You can totally try to bluff a troll in D&D, but that doesn't mean the troll won't still try to kill you. If you want a game where you can not kill anyone, play Dishonored (which I love, by the way). They have always been clear as to what Mass Effect is. It's fine to want things from a game, but to detract from it because it has never had a capability you want is just...wrong. When ME1 was released it was very much seen as a watered-down RPG. But that didn't mean that the sequels had to be. Most of the times game sequels try to add and expand upon the first game. I had hoped the sequels would improve the RPG side and make it deeper. They went the other direction. I see no difference in my wanting BioWare to have taken ME in the RPG direction than other people who wanted it to go in a more action direction. Each side is valid. The people who wanted better combat got it, and that's fine. All I am doing it voicing my disappointment. I'm not going to kill an action game fan's dog or something over it. I have no trouble with you voicing your opinion. At all. I'm just saying that, for one, "non-combat" is not a staple of being a RPG. It is included in some RPG, but I don't think that is what makes a "deep" RPG. Having some options to avoid combat that make sense in the context, sure. But again, I feel a deeper RPG just means more ability to express your "role" as the PC. I'll agree that some of that is lost in Andromeda, in which you cannot be evil/a total jerk. But in some situations there are going to be combat, if that is how the enemy is designed. I know there are games where you can go a non-lethal route, but for the most part they still require some "combat" encounters. In Dishonored, you can't just talk yourself out of every situation. You often have to take out guards, though you can do so non-lethally. Same in Deus Ex. You still have to do a combat-type encounter. What then is missing from MEA is a non-lethal choke-out melee or a tranquilizer mod for a weapon. But there would still be some combat-type encounters. But Bioware decided not to move in this direction. This does not, however, make it less of an RPG or more shallow of an RPG, I believe. It's still allowing you to react the way you want in certain situations, but just in the confines of the context of the encounters. Even the crew of the Enterprise D, in which Captain Picard always attempted diplomacy over aggressive action, had to enter combat sometimes. It's a fact of exploring the unknown. You can't always do what you want, because the world exists outside of the PC. The point is, you are asking Bioware to go in a direction that they never were. Better combat, smoother action, etc, is an evolution of where they started. But a complete stealth/non-lethal run was never ever what Mass Effect was about. It wasn't a direction they ever went in. There were examples of talking an enemy down, but always the knowledge that at some point you would need to engage an enemy.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 29, 2017 3:55:01 GMT
Inventory system. First in a Mass Effect game since Mass Effect 1. Crafting system. Never been in a Mass Effect game. Classless leveling system...leaving the player to forge virtually whatever combat style they want. Elimination of Paragon and Renegade system and all its baggage plus expanding on the options from say...ME 3. Allowing the player to define their character in small moments and large and the only restrictions are due to story considerations and not gameplay gimmicks. IE your choices in dialog might cause certain characters to like/dislike you, or might cause certain consequences in terms of story...and this is the big one. And a narrative which forces the player to make choices both large and small. And while they have added and expanded on the RPG mechanics from the series I can't think of any they have actively removed. I don't like classless systems in RPGs. Instead of role-playing they generally allow the user to become a generic overpowered super-mensch with access to every ability in the game. Paragon and renegade was not perfect and neither is the new system. You are essentially limited to a paragon of various degrees. A good RPG dialogue system should have options that allow a wide range of character responses from good to evil to shades in between. Also skill-checks. Is my pathfinder an adventurer, a scientist, a military leader? Things like these should impact and be reflected in dialogue. not really my Ryder was able to do something of very dubious morality to a certain character that...if this were the trilogy...would have been among the very worst renegade actions.
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