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Post by Lost Mercenary on Mar 28, 2017 17:11:00 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda has a lot of problems. Animations issues, bugs, story pacing, etc. But the great epic diverse narrative has always been Bioware's staple. They made you feel that no matter what your chocies have a profound effect on the world around you and the people closest too you. Here in ME:A I feel like the complete god damn opposite has happened. No matter what you do, no matter if you choose to save Angara or blow the Kett base, or save the Krogan scots or the Salarian Pathfinder, no matter if you finish the memory triggers story or not, none of it changes a goddamn thing within the confines of the story or the ending expect maybe a line of dialouge or two. And that is what is bumming me out more than anything else here. The story's ending was not awfully told but it was extremely underwelhming and doesn't play out any differently no matter what you choose to do. Say what you want about ME3's conclusion but even that gave you a choice of colour to pick from.
It feels like its just DLC baiting. You made a choice in the game? Sure... now spend more money to see what happened. It is so disheartening to see this happening and all I can really do is point at EA for this and their crappy buisness practices.
Am I alone here? Because I've been scouring around online and I can't see anyone else pointing this out and I'm curious about everyone else thoughts and feelings on this. Andromeda is not a bad story. But choice and consequence feels like it is well and truly gone now.
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Post by vanguardn7 on Mar 28, 2017 17:50:16 GMT
no less so then the trilogy your still going from point a to point b.
frankly and I know I'm gonna get flamed for this, choice in video games is a myth. your always going from point a to point b with maybe a few very minor differences or some pictures with words on it tacked to the ending. but overall it's the same damn story.
and yes ME: A does react to what you do to a point.
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Post by Scottphoto on Mar 28, 2017 17:58:11 GMT
Honestly all of the choices seem to be relevant to a sequel game, not to the actual game story itself. Most of the choices you make are more long term that can affect after a few years. Things like your choice on Kadara, saving the angara or not and a lot of other mini quests. Which is why I hope they can still make another game with this set up, because there's a big amount of potential things to do with a sequel with the choices on this one.
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Post by Ianamus on Mar 28, 2017 18:03:42 GMT
Andromedas ending changes more than any of the others did, visually.
Mass Effect 1's always ended exactly the same. Mass Effect 2's changed in that some characters could die, but that had no actual impact until mass effect 3. And none of your previous decisions affected Mass Effect 3's original ending at all outside of unlocking synthesis and one scene where you see either the quarians or geth in the fleet for a split second.
Actually having the people we've met or saved join us in the final confrontation is more acknowledgement of our choices than we've ever had before. Yes the final outcome is the same, but that's true of every mass effect game except 3.
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Post by midnightwolf on Mar 28, 2017 18:11:34 GMT
I don't understand what people mean when they say 'will my choices matter' in video games. What is it exactly that you WANT, to matter? One of the main quests, you have to choose between one group or another. THAT is a choice, and which ever group you don't choose will no longer be on your side. THAT is your choice which has come to fruition. And there are a few moments like that in this game.
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Post by poekel on Mar 28, 2017 19:08:52 GMT
The problem here is that you have to be sure about what you want. Do you want DLC that will reflect you choices? Do you want to have sequels that will reflect your choices? Or do you want to have a single game that will reflect your choices in game changing ways, leading up to very different endings? You can have only one of those, not both as it will get ever more difficult to include consequences of different choices the more game/narrative changing they are (even though ME3s endings weren't vastly different they made it pretty much impossible to create a sequel that would include all those choices). Look for example at Telltale games for other choice driven game. There are a lot of (some might say cosmetic) choices that ultimately lead to largely the same ending. Not because they don't want to have real choices, but because it would not practically be feasible to do otherwise as they would have to produce more much more content than they could. They pretty much would have to produce content for not 6 episodes but a shitload more as each different ending would have to lead to a different game. So yes, if you produce a game with choices and you want it to have more than a few hours of story driven content those choices ultimately will have to be pointless (the difficult part is not making the choices actually matter a lot, but making you feel that they do that at least the first time you are playing). Personally I think the game dealt pretty well with the choices offered and with the possibility of having future content that might respect those choices. I'd rather have this over slightly different ending cutscenes and a lot of those choices could be seen as similar to those you made in ME1 for example.
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Post by Croatsky on Mar 28, 2017 19:30:04 GMT
Andromedas ending changes more than any of the others did, visually. Mass Effect 1's always ended exactly the same. Mass Effect 2's changed in that some characters could die, but that had no actual impact until mass effect 3. And none of your previous decisions affected Mass Effect 3's original ending at all outside of unlocking synthesis and one scene where you see either the quarians or geth in the fleet for a split second. Actually having the people we've met or saved join us in the final confrontation is more acknowledgement of our choices than we've ever had before. Yes the final outcome is the same, but that's true of every mass effect game except 3. And that's why I love ME:A's ending. This was the least what I wanted from ME3 ending. And in ME:A they made it gloriously amazing.
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Post by laxian on Mar 28, 2017 19:43:09 GMT
Honestly all of the choices seem to be relevant to a sequel game, not to the actual game story itself. Most of the choices you make are more long term that can affect after a few years. Things like your choice on Kadara, saving the angara or not and a lot of other mini quests. Which is why I hope they can still make another game with this set up, because there's a big amount of potential things to do with a sequel with the choices on this one. Exactly - especially in quests that let you make moral decisions like casting somebody out ("The first Murder") or if traitors should be allowed to remain free because they can provide intel (they can and have infiltrated the Kett) etc. (I am sure you will meet that STG-Agent again and if you let the traitors go he will probably not help you - on the other hand: That intel could save many lives, especially if infiltration (and maybe sabotage) really worked out (!)) It really is a lot of setting up for a follow up game IMHO (I hope so) - I hope it is NOT DLC-Baiting (like that stuff surrounding the Quarian-Ark (!), which seems to be DLC ("Sad, Bioware, SAD!" - sorry, to quote Trump here, but IMHO they should not have made the Quarians DLC (note: I think they are DLC, I mean after all we get a damned signal from them and nothing more, we can't investigate etc.!))) greetings LAX ps: Better than the last Bioware games (DA:I and ME3), but a sequel needs to be better IMHO (and have fixed face animations...I know it's a high level complaint, but they had 5 years, I believe that if they gave me (and a team of trusted friends!) 5 years and access to resources and people that I could do better animation wise...story wise? I don't know, I know that I could make some better quests and a better beginning (I would have introduced the scourge later and have the ark attacked by a Kett patrole directly (and if I really needed to kill of Alec Ryder he would have gone down in a heroic last stand, not because some freaking shitty helmet, that shouldn't have that much glass anyway (!), broke!))
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Post by tenny on Mar 28, 2017 19:52:52 GMT
I actually think that less choices, the better. Because unless a game is some kind of text-based rpg, its just not financially feasible to account for every little choice and decision made. We could see it in ME3 - since most of the ME2 companions could die in the game, they barely played roles in ME3. Why? Well, because when half (or different portion, of course) of your players doesnt even have particular character(s) alive, why devote many scenes to them? This is also the main reason why we have Andromeda in the first place - since ME3 ended up with 3 wildly different endings (and endings people didnt like), you would have to basically make 3 different games or ignore the choices altogether, if you wanted to do ME4 in Milky Way after Shepard.
Your choices do matter to some extent - but only what game engine and money allows. That's how it is, and how it is in basically every game. Even in Witcher 3, the game so often compared to Bioware games, your decisions from Witcher 2 amounted to fuck all. Changed one quest, I think? Basically, you can't expect major game changing consequences from any game, especially a game that will most probably have a sequel.
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Post by Lost Mercenary on Mar 28, 2017 21:44:27 GMT
Wow. Seeing all these replies is leaving me feeling really conflicted now about what I wanted from this game. On the one hand, of course I want to see more Mass Effect in the future and past decisions being reflected in said continuations. Especially the whole Kett/Amgaran choice. And yet on the other hand I wanted a whole complete story that adapted as I went along with a conclusion unique to what I had done. Something Dragon Age Origins accomplished with near perfection. I'm realy not sure how to feel about all this. I feel let down but I'm still hopeful. I think this is the first Bioware game which has made me analyse myself because of it's story and what I truly want from the franchise. So conflicted right now...
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Post by Croatsky on Mar 28, 2017 22:46:14 GMT
Wow. Seeing all these replies is leaving me feeling really conflicted now about what I wanted from this game. On the one hand, of course I want to see more Mass Effect in the future and past decisions being reflected in said continuations. Especially the whole Kett/Amgaran choice. And yet on the other hand I wanted a whole complete story that adapted as I went along with a conclusion unique to what I had done. Something Dragon Age Origins accomplished with near perfection. I'm realy not sure how to feel about all this. I feel let down but I'm still hopeful. I think this is the first Bioware game which has made me analyse myself because of it's story and what I truly want from the franchise. So conflicted right now... Do note that Bioware made sure to make ME:A playable post-ending. And there is some seriously good post-ending content. As well set up for at least one story DLC in future, perhaps post-ending only.
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Post by Lost Mercenary on Mar 28, 2017 22:58:11 GMT
Wow. Seeing all these replies is leaving me feeling really conflicted now about what I wanted from this game. On the one hand, of course I want to see more Mass Effect in the future and past decisions being reflected in said continuations. Especially the whole Kett/Amgaran choice. And yet on the other hand I wanted a whole complete story that adapted as I went along with a conclusion unique to what I had done. Something Dragon Age Origins accomplished with near perfection. I'm realy not sure how to feel about all this. I feel let down but I'm still hopeful. I think this is the first Bioware game which has made me analyse myself because of it's story and what I truly want from the franchise. So conflicted right now... Do note that Bioware made sure to make ME:A playable post-ending. And there is some seriously good post-ending content. As well set up for at least one story DLC in future, perhaps post-ending only. To what post ending content are you reffering? Is there anything that unlocks only after you beat the game?
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Post by Croatsky on Mar 28, 2017 23:04:58 GMT
Do note that Bioware made sure to make ME:A playable post-ending. And there is some seriously good post-ending content. As well set up for at least one story DLC in future, perhaps post-ending only. To what post ending content are you reffering? Is there anything that unlocks only after you beat the game? No new quests, no. But you get like an hour extra content to talk to your crew, other important NPC's and even new NPC's about future ahead. I call that amazing. It's quite clear Bioware will continue working on post-ending content, perhaps some of your choices will play more role in them. Similarly like in DA:I's Trespasser DLC.
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Post by GordianKnot on Mar 29, 2017 1:34:42 GMT
I actually think that less choices, the better. Because unless a game is some kind of text-based rpg, its just not financially feasible to account for every little choice and decision made. We could see it in ME3 - since most of the ME2 companions could die in the game, they barely played roles in ME3. Why? Well, because when half (or different portion, of course) of your players doesnt even have particular character(s) alive, why devote many scenes to them? This is also the main reason why we have Andromeda in the first place - since ME3 ended up with 3 wildly different endings (and endings people didnt like), you would have to basically make 3 different games or ignore the choices altogether, if you wanted to do ME4 in Milky Way after Shepard. Hahahahahaha that's funny right there! A really simple way that they could have accounted for the extensive amount of choices in ME1 and ME2 would be to categorize war assets (military, engineering, diplomatic, etc) and then have different outcomes in the epilogue based on which ones were the highest. For example, if you cured the genophage and actually dispersed the cure, you would get some krogan army troops that would count as a military asset. But if you were a total dickhead decided to sabotage the genophage cure, you could get some salarian engineers that would count as an engineering or scientific asset. It's simple and it would have given a lot of people what they wanted -- different endings based on Shepard's choices throughout the trilogy. The ending of Mass Effect 1 was pretty much exactly the same no matter what choices you make -- this is true. You kill Saren and destroy Sovereign and stop the geth from invading and yay everything is puppies and rainbows! But the key choices along the way really allowed the player to develop the kind of person that they wanted Shepard to be. Saving/killing the Rachni, saving the council/letting them die, hell even choosing between Kaidan and Ashley made me want to go back and do a play through where I kept the other one alive. So I guess the question is, does the ME:A main quest storyline feel like a railroad, or does the player have choices along the way that seem to have a profound effect on who Ryder becomes throughout the game?
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Lost Mercenary
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Post by Lost Mercenary on Mar 29, 2017 7:27:56 GMT
So I guess the question is, does the ME:A main quest storyline feel like a railroad, or does the player have choices along the way that seem to have a profound effect on who Ryder becomes throughout the game? This right here!
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Post by ymirr on Mar 29, 2017 7:53:14 GMT
This game felt like a prologue, decisions seem to be something that would have consequences later on.
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Post by LilTIM on Mar 29, 2017 10:34:57 GMT
How much did ME1 choices matter in ME2? Some winks and acknowledgements, but the overall story was the same. There was no significant consequence that i remember, even being a spectre or not was pointless.
In ME3 we saw some better done consequences in that past choices opened some resolutions (ex. geth peace, genophage data, etc.), but then it was the last game, so maybe bioware was more bold. But then the endings forced a soft-recon of the setting.
In MEA i found the choices in line with how other ME games did them, just adding some flavour, but not really changing the story.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Mar 29, 2017 10:47:52 GMT
It will be just as pointless as ME1's.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2017 15:28:17 GMT
How much did ME1 choices matter in ME2? Some winks and acknowledgements, but the overall story was the same. There was no significant consequence that i remember, even being a spectre or not was pointless. In ME3 we saw some better done consequences in that past choices opened some resolutions (ex. geth peace, genophage data, etc.), but then it was the last game, so maybe bioware was more bold. But then the endings forced a soft-recon of the setting. In MEA i found the choices in line with how other ME games did them, just adding some flavour, but not really changing the story. This is why choices should matter in the game where you made them. Passing them on to future games is unwieldy at best and pointless at worst. the trilogy should be proof enough of that.
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Post by xeternalxdreams on Mar 29, 2017 19:05:33 GMT
How much did ME1 choices matter in ME2? Some winks and acknowledgements, but the overall story was the same. There was no significant consequence that i remember, even being a spectre or not was pointless. In ME3 we saw some better done consequences in that past choices opened some resolutions (ex. geth peace, genophage data, etc.), but then it was the last game, so maybe bioware was more bold. But then the endings forced a soft-recon of the setting. In MEA i found the choices in line with how other ME games did them, just adding some flavour, but not really changing the story. This is why choices should matter in the game where you made them. Passing them on to future games is unwieldy at best and pointless at worst. the trilogy should be proof enough of that. I have been saying that for years. I like to see my choices have consequences in the same game (and if they add DLC to further some plot points that looked like they could now be explored because people really liked it) . It can be good, bad, or cosmetic results. Results are good enough for me. I think if it is important to span games, then I would like more out of that decision. The trilogy had some really epic choices but it became a handicap to sort because they could only do so much with the decisions via ME3. I liked how they handled ME3 with all the choices, character loyalty/death, ect. I can't really name another game where the story takes a whole different turn throughout it while juggling each story. Besides EMS and the end (which was so sad.. even though I knew it was over), your choices were at least referenced. ME3 wasn't perfect but I am glad they gave us a choice at the end to shape your Milky Way as it comes to a close. Otherwise, everyone would have the same ending.. it wouldn't feel personal. It wasn't the best way to go about it but eh, better than nothing.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2017 19:12:34 GMT
ME3 wasn't perfect but I am glad they gave us a choice at the end to shape your Milky Way as it comes to a close. Otherwise, everyone would have the same ending.. it wouldn't feel personal. It wasn't the best way to go about it but eh, better than nothing. I disagree on that. The choice was too big. We can never return to the Milky Way now because there are simply too many potential permutations. The scope of the Milky Way's fate should have been narrower (still some variety, but similar enough we could still play in it), and the choices we could really shape should have been Shepard's fate. That would have been a truly personal ending.
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Post by xeternalxdreams on Mar 29, 2017 20:16:11 GMT
ME3 wasn't perfect but I am glad they gave us a choice at the end to shape your Milky Way as it comes to a close. Otherwise, everyone would have the same ending.. it wouldn't feel personal. It wasn't the best way to go about it but eh, better than nothing. I disagree on that. The choice was too big. We can never return to the Milky Way now because there are simply too many potential permutations. The scope of the Milky Way's fate should have been narrower (still some variety, but similar enough we could still play in it), and the choices we could really shape should have been Shepard's fate. That would have been a truly personal ending. True, it shouldn't of been done if they were planning any future series for Mass Effect, plus take out a few more big decisions. Honestly, I swing back and forth with the simplified ideas of mine below.. A. They had no plans at all to return to the Mass Effect Trilogy. The ending was like headcanon to what happen after the series was over. They may have thought that IP was wrapped up and thought the new IP and DA were going to be their focus for the next decade or so. The popularity and money making of Mass Effect was too much to pass up so they had to reboot somehow so MEA came the way it did to escape the handicaps of MET decisions including the ending. B. They have always wanted to make another Mass Effect but all those choices during MET (even excluding the ending) were too diverse to really expand on during a stay in the Milky Way especially if Shepherd was alive. The guy/gal you've played hundreds of hours now as an NPC (imagine those angry mobs shouting "my Shep wouldn't do/say that.") The ending uproar might of help them even more to want to not address the endings,ect ..so they planned to leave as soon as they could from the Milky Way and came MEA as it did. Just random thoughts. Shep didn't really get an ending or closure but the Milky Way definitely got it's ending.
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Post by shermos on Mar 30, 2017 6:16:06 GMT
ME3 wasn't perfect but I am glad they gave us a choice at the end to shape your Milky Way as it comes to a close. Otherwise, everyone would have the same ending.. it wouldn't feel personal. It wasn't the best way to go about it but eh, better than nothing. I disagree on that. The choice was too big. We can never return to the Milky Way now because there are simply too many potential permutations. The scope of the Milky Way's fate should have been narrower (still some variety, but similar enough we could still play in it), and the choices we could really shape should have been Shepard's fate. That would have been a truly personal ending. I never had a big problem with ME3's ending, but I've come to agree with this. I would have preferred Destroy or Mehem (I dislike both) be made canon than avoiding the issue altogether. Besides, Synthesis has basically been made canon anyway with this stupid SAM AI. Wouldn't it have been better to go with that but stay in the Milky Way? Or was Mac Walters hoping the player would be too stupid to notice it if it was done this way?
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ymirr
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Post by ymirr on Mar 30, 2017 7:28:50 GMT
I think they said they weren't making a trilogy? But the first game sort of suggest more than one game. It's not the simplest thing to continue a game's story if previous games had different impactful endings. However, I think it would be interesting to see previous game choices carry over and have an impact at the end of the entire story. Like cross game choices, where the final game could actually have various endings since it doesn't have to consider implementing that into a new game.
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CTPhipps
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by CTPhipps on Mar 30, 2017 11:28:07 GMT
I disagree on that. The choice was too big. We can never return to the Milky Way now because there are simply too many potential permutations. The scope of the Milky Way's fate should have been narrower (still some variety, but similar enough we could still play in it), and the choices we could really shape should have been Shepard's fate. That would have been a truly personal ending. True, it shouldn't of been done if they were planning any future series for Mass Effect, plus take out a few more big decisions. Honestly, I swing back and forth with the simplified ideas of mine below.. A. They had no plans at all to return to the Mass Effect Trilogy. The ending was like headcanon to what happen after the series was over. They may have thought that IP was wrapped up and thought the new IP and DA were going to be their focus for the next decade or so. The popularity and money making of Mass Effect was too much to pass up so they had to reboot somehow so MEA came the way it did to escape the handicaps of MET decisions including the ending. B. They have always wanted to make another Mass Effect but all those choices during MET (even excluding the ending) were too diverse to really expand on during a stay in the Milky Way especially if Shepherd was alive. The guy/gal you've played hundreds of hours now as an NPC (imagine those angry mobs shouting "my Shep wouldn't do/say that.") The ending uproar might of help them even more to want to not address the endings,ect ..so they planned to leave as soon as they could from the Milky Way and came MEA as it did. Just random thoughts. Shep didn't really get an ending or closure but the Milky Way definitely got it's ending. Honestly speaking, I don't think the publishers really would have had that much difficulty satisfying fans on that end. Fallout 3 had one of the worst endings of all time because it was designed to force the player into a needless heroic sacrifice. No one would have really cared if, say, Shepard had blown up the Reapers with the Conduit without genocide. What happens after that to Shepard, doesn't matter. I think gamer audiences are a bit more flexible than people give them credit for. Hawke not being QUITE right when they showed up in DA:I was a small price to pay for them being a NPC.
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