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Post by zaeedisking on Mar 28, 2017 18:57:21 GMT
Maybe I'm in the minority but I feel as if the Krogan were just treated as equals among the other races within the AI... when in fact this is the species that was essentially neutered by the Milky Way council because of the threat they represented. I never got the sense the Krogan were given the same treatment thematically in MEA as they were in the OT. I'd take the Krogan over the Kett seven ways to sunday if they went head to head.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 28, 2017 19:01:08 GMT
Maybe I'm in the minority but I feel as if the Krogan were just treated as equals among the other races within the AI... when in fact this is the species that was essentially neutered by the Milky Way council because of the threat they represented. I never got the sense the Krogan were given the same treatment thematically in MEA as they were in the OT. I'd take the Krogan over the Kett seven ways to sunday if they went head to head. So...did I imagine the entire thing were they got screwed after putting down the Uprising for the crime of being Krogan?
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Post by Atila on Mar 28, 2017 19:11:17 GMT
Maybe I'm in the minority but I feel as if the Krogan were just treated as equals among the other races within the AI... when in fact this is the species that was essentially neutered by the Milky Way council because of the threat they represented. I never got the sense the Krogan were given the same treatment thematically in MEA as they were in the OT. I'd take the Krogan over the Kett seven ways to sunday if they went head to head. So...did I imagine the entire thing were they got screwed after putting down the Uprising for the crime of being Krogan? ^This.. Unfair treatment & the Ai council not holding their end of the deal resulting in the Krogans leaving the Nexus. Did you even talk with any of the Ai council?
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zaeedisking
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Post by zaeedisking on Mar 28, 2017 19:14:21 GMT
So...did I imagine the entire thing were they got screwed after putting down the Uprising for the crime of being Krogan? ^This.. Unfair treatment & the Ai council not holding their end of the deal resulting in the Krogans leaving the Nexus. Did you even talk with any of the Ai council? I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm talking about why the Krogan went from being this feared and threatening race to just sort of rebels of the AI and not being understood. Honestly I would still fear the Krogan over the Kett if they were unleashed in Andromeda without the Geno to stop them.
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Post by scouserant23 on Mar 28, 2017 19:19:37 GMT
Maybe I'm in the minority but I feel as if the Krogan were just treated as equals among the other races within the AI... when in fact this is the species that was essentially neutered by the Milky Way council because of the threat they represented. I never got the sense the Krogan were given the same treatment thematically in MEA as they were in the OT. I'd take the Krogan over the Kett seven ways to sunday if they went head to head. So...did I imagine the entire thing were they got screwed after putting down the Uprising for the crime of being Krogan? Totally Imagined You also imagined the kett singling them out as the first species from milkyway to convert into kett because of their brute strength and evolution focusing on combat. There is totally hundreds of Krogan in the initiative and not just the one who remained to try and help her people by being a voice in the intiative.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 28, 2017 19:26:47 GMT
Wait, I am confused on how the kett and Krogan are related. Might be a spoiler thing.
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Post by Atila on Mar 28, 2017 19:29:37 GMT
^This.. Unfair treatment & the Ai council not holding their end of the deal resulting in the Krogans leaving the Nexus. Did you even talk with any of the Ai council? I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm talking about why the Krogan went from being this feared and threatening race to just sort of rebels of the AI and not being understood. Honestly I would still fear the Krogan over the Kett if they were unleashed in Andromeda without the Geno to stop them. The Krogans are still feared but there are only a few & all of them were aboard The Hyperion aka the Human's Ark. While it's true some of them develop natural resistance(?) toward the genophage, but it's still only at a smaller scale & the effectiveness of conception are still at a mere 4%. Considering their numbers compared to the other races such as Asari, Turian, Human, Salarian, & Angara. Heleus cluster alliance have overwhelming advantage against the Krogans. These are just assumptions of course.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 28, 2017 19:35:42 GMT
I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm talking about why the Krogan went from being this feared and threatening race to just sort of rebels of the AI and not being understood. Honestly I would still fear the Krogan over the Kett if they were unleashed in Andromeda without the Geno to stop them. The Krogans are still feared but there are only a few & all of them were aboard The Hyperion aka the Human's Ark. While it's true some of them develop natural resistance(?) toward the genophage, but it's still only at a smaller scale & the effectiveness of conception are still at a mere 4%. Considering their numbers compared to the other races such as Asari, Turian, Human, Salarian, & Angara. Heleus cluster alliance have overwhelming advantage against the Krogans. These are just assumptions of course. There are still Salarians as well, so Genophage 3.0 is possible still.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 28, 2017 20:15:49 GMT
OP - Its because the Krogan can't do crap! Not in this setup!
...yet.
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Post by Cyonan on Mar 28, 2017 20:28:16 GMT
^This.. Unfair treatment & the Ai council not holding their end of the deal resulting in the Krogans leaving the Nexus. Did you even talk with any of the Ai council? I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm talking about why the Krogan went from being this feared and threatening race to just sort of rebels of the AI and not being understood. Honestly I would still fear the Krogan over the Kett if they were unleashed in Andromeda without the Geno to stop them. The Krogan are still affected by the genophage and while they are adapting to it again and slowly overcoming it, I imagine that it's probably not common knowledge to the point where everybody is going to freak out over the idea of being overrun by Krogan. It's something they might address in a future game but at least for now, their numbers aren't big enough to be a threat to the entire cluster. The only reason their threat kept coming up in the original trilogy is because they kept dangling a cure for the genophage in front of us every single game until the third when we finally could cure it. Beyond that, they've still been treated as little more than hired muscle which is largely how people treated them in the original trilogy.
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Post by zaeedisking on Mar 28, 2017 20:36:27 GMT
I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm talking about why the Krogan went from being this feared and threatening race to just sort of rebels of the AI and not being understood. Honestly I would still fear the Krogan over the Kett if they were unleashed in Andromeda without the Geno to stop them. The Krogan are still affected by the genophage and while they are adapting to it again and slowly overcoming it, I imagine that it's probably not common knowledge to the point where everybody is going to freak out over the idea of being overrun by Krogan. It's something they might address in a future game but at least for now, their numbers aren't big enough to be a threat to the entire cluster. The only reason their threat kept coming up in the original trilogy is because they kept dangling a cure for the genophage in front of us every single game until the third when we finally could cure it. Beyond that, they've still been treated as little more than hired muscle which is largely how people treated them in the original trilogy. It took Turians w/ asteroids to tame them after single handedly saving the galaxy from the Rachni. I get your point about where they are status wise in ME1... but there's not doubt through the OT who the biggest baddest aliens on the block are. As flawed as ME3 is the game even makes the point that w/out them the Reapers are basically taking a victory lap while we try to muster w/e futile resistance we can.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 28, 2017 21:12:02 GMT
"As flawed as ME3 is the game even makes the point that w/out them the Reapers are basically taking a victory lap while we try to muster w/e futile resistance we can."
Careful there. Without humans, without turians, without asari, without salarians, etc etc.
Great, krogan are fighters. Great. They still would have been stomped by the Reapers even if the krogan ruled the galaxy with trillions alive.
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Post by zaeedisking on Mar 28, 2017 21:41:04 GMT
"As flawed as ME3 is the game even makes the point that w/out them the Reapers are basically taking a victory lap while we try to muster w/e futile resistance we can." Careful there. Without humans, without turians, without asari, without salarians, etc etc. Great, krogan are fighters. Great. They still would have been stomped by the Reapers even if the krogan ruled the galaxy with trillions alive. The theme is prominent throughout the OT that these guys are essentially top of the food chain. No Geno and they're the Kett on steroids.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 30, 2017 17:14:00 GMT
"As flawed as ME3 is the game even makes the point that w/out them the Reapers are basically taking a victory lap while we try to muster w/e futile resistance we can." Careful there. Without humans, without turians, without asari, without salarians, etc etc. Great, krogan are fighters. Great. They still would have been stomped by the Reapers even if the krogan ruled the galaxy with trillions alive. The theme is prominent throughout the OT that these guys are essentially top of the food chain. No Geno and they're the Kett on steroids. No they're not. This was a minor kett force, that was being distracted from its undivided attention. The kett is and will be more of a threat than the krogan that would only be so dangerous if all their clans were united in the rebellions (they were not; everything was just about expanding to more worlds as they grew in population, and clans had all sorts of politics - its very easy to consider that if the krogan rebelled now (post-ME3) that it'd still be a very hard fight but they'd be put down more easily than the staving off *for decades*). The krogan are amazing at combat and population growth but besides the genophage event, they have many factors that keep them from an objective superiority in the galaxy. In the OT, the point was more that the Citadel wasn't *ready to cope with an uplifted species*, not that this species was actually so much of an easy threat to the whole galaxy. You think the genophage was so hard? All sorts of other weapons could have and may have been produced. However, the galaxy was still grateful to the krogan for handling the rachni and there's plenty of evidence that they kept giving the krogan chance after chance, diplomacy attempt after diplomacy attempt, keeping conflicts smaller than they would have been, until the krogan managed to push their presence up to Palaven's moon. Then everyone went "Enough of this shit" and even instead of blasting the krogan to hell with advanced destructive weaponry, they employed the 'soft death' of the genophage. The krogan were only going to take over the galaxy if the rest of the species kept soft-handing them, not because of some intrinsic weakness in the other species. Perhaps if things were 'one-on-one' any of the other species would lose, but you'd be missing the bigger picture that the krogan don't have the luxury of only dealing with species on-on-one, and even then, if the salarians could cook up the genophage, they could probably cook up much worse, and lacking useful scientists, the krogan would more likely just flop around and die out even faster than with the genophage. Not quite surprising you're missing the bigger picture when looking at your Zaeed avatar though (just a joke about Zaeed being the most willfully ignorant about pretty much anything, and just focused on how better to shoot things and immediately survive; I don't mean it personally as an insult) The krogan are superior in a few roles: ground troops, territorial spread, utilization of technology for destruction, survivalism. None of this means they are 'top of the food chain'. In fact, turians staving them off for decades and salarians making a SOFT weapon of the genophage are themselves evidence that the krogan were being patronized on any larger scale than ground war, until it was enough and they got effectively neutered and made to mostly stay in their DMZ. All throughout this process, its likely the asari kept trying to push for peace because their space beyond border colonies were probably never even threatened in these decades. I suppose if the galaxy was only the more historical salarians and asari, the krogan may have defeated them simply due to their quick expansion overwhelming any more soft approaches. But they were not dealing with just 'salarians' and 'asari'. They were dealing with the Council (asari and salarians in cooperation), with its minor races, and Turians on the scene and ready to unite as a people against the krogan. The krogan have a reputation amongst themselves as ferocious warlords amongst themselves, but others view them as tool brutes, even the long-lived asari, for a reason. They were never an existential threat, but they were strong enough to present the eventual possibility of becoming one. Thus *genophage*.
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Post by zaeedisking on Mar 30, 2017 17:57:55 GMT
Interesting revisionist take on the Krogan in the OT. You must of missed the countless number of times the Genophage was brought up during conversation in games 2 & 3 and what the outcome of an unchecked Krogan population would've done to the Milky Way had it not been engineered. Your main point about the Krogan being a soft target because they're only good at combat/breeding doesn't really add up. If that's the case why did it take the combined efforts of the council races (even then they had to reach out to the Turians) to tame them if they are so easily dismissed.
The better argument can be made that had they not been "uplifted" by the Salarians in the first place they never would have become a threat at all.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 1, 2017 6:46:24 GMT
Interesting revisionist take on the Krogan in the OT. You must of missed the countless number of times the Genophage was brought up during conversation in games 2 & 3 and what the outcome of an unchecked Krogan population would've done to the Milky Way had it not been engineered. Your main point about the Krogan being a soft target because they're only good at combat/breeding doesn't really add up. If that's the case why did it take the combined efforts of the council races (even then they had to reach out to the Turians) to tame them if they are so easily dismissed. The better argument can be made that had they not been "uplifted" by the Salarians in the first place they never would have become a threat at all. That's just it. They wanted to *tame* the Krogan. If a genophage was made, there could have certainly been the resources to develop a total genocide. It wasn't about survival of their species, it was about the future of their civilizations. They preferred having the krogan on hand compared to not having them on hand. If they preferred the latter, and if they were really so callous towards the krogan, wiping them out would be easy. There's a reason why they're considered like caged dogs. Because that was their intended use. Yeah you have rabid dogs wrecking your territory and it sucks, but depending on your circumstances (in this case the unknown like rachni being out there), maybe you actually still want those dogs available just in case. Sure its a bigger hassle to wrangle them back, but potentially more worth it. Not the best analogy, but it applies. There's the empathetic part of it too. The Asari I'm sure don't want to just employ a weapon to kill all Krogan, or blast all their territory to bits. The Salarians even are not immune to moral quandaries. There was debate. But the Turians were the closest to the ground war and they wanted a way to turn that back. THEY did. Not the Salarians (yet). Not the Asari. I never suggested that the Krogan wouldn't be doing even irreparable harm to the other species. Of course they could. They're hugely expansionist and arguably the best at ground combat. They did indeed give the Turians a huge challenge. But it was because the Council wanted to *tame* the Krogan. That is a *softer* hand than otherwise. And a very understandable one. Look, 'top of the food chain' isn't just about getting to bash (or shoot) the other better. It can just as well mean having the awareness to open a trap door, or cripple another's esteem, or convincing others to gang up on you, or all sorts of things that the brash, strong bully never realized makes one survive better and therefore be 'top' when its too late for you to survive. The concept of the Krogan is that they were always tools, even rampaging ones sometimes. They had their various ways of handling that, of basically responding to their impotence whilst also being the physically strongest of the races. The genophage only brought that issue to the forefront of their minds and culture, because at that point it was unavoidable. In the rebellions, they were still tools because their wielders refused to dispose of them like they were useless (aka not tools). Before the rebellions they were certainly tools. After the rebellions the despair sets in that they may always be tools. In ME3, we see that there just may be a future for the Krogan where they're not tools. Where they're first useful in a fight on their own terms, and later establishing galactic civilization on their own terms. In MEA, we see that there may be a future more in the way of cooperation with others (what Eve implied in ME3 compared to Wrex), whilst maintaining a potential of territory and strength. You know what the Kett would do? Well we see: take some Krogan and turn them into KettKrogan and fight Krogan with StrongerKrogan. See who wins that, while the Kett have better ships, technology, adherence to organization, etc etc etc? Maybe if all Krogan were in some endless blood rage something would get done I suppose. Not all Krogan are Wrex/Drack/Grunt. Not by far.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 1, 2017 7:04:21 GMT
^This.. Unfair treatment & the Ai council not holding their end of the deal resulting in the Krogans leaving the Nexus. Did you even talk with any of the Ai council? I think there is a misunderstanding. I'm talking about why the Krogan went from being this feared and threatening race to just sort of rebels of the AI and not being understood. Honestly I would still fear the Krogan over the Kett if they were unleashed in Andromeda without the Geno to stop them. Theres a datapad with the answer. Fewer than 1400 Krogan came to Andromeda. If there were 20,000 you would have arrived on the Nexus to find it was littered with burning Turian, Salarian and human cryo pods and corpses. (Never forget Virmire Rarrgh) *Sips Andromade*
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