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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 29, 2017 11:47:09 GMT
Sit back and enjoy this for context of my opinion: For everything that Andromeda does to disappoint fans of the trilogy or BioWare or whatever, the one thing thus far Andromeda gets RIGHT in my opinion is that when you're faced with choices and ultimatums (as opposed to roleplaying with tones) it has the appropriate effect a choice should have. The game uses choices to support its themes and world-building. Do you settle a science-lab outpost or do you make it military? Do you shut down an unethical experiment or keep it for research. Granted some of it is retrodden ground but much like how Mass Effect 3 found its greatest moments of causality of choices via the smaller, less memorable decisions as opposed to the "YOUR CHOICES WILL MATTER... (eventually)" decisions is a testament to how those kinds of choices are more grounded to work within the interactive narrative in the first place. As in the video I linked to MrBTongue explains that to him the most effective form of Choice & Consequence is when it is used as an effect to the setting and used to build immersion as opposed to being a marketed slogan that eventually doesn't even fulfill the promise (as in ME3). As much as Andromeda seems to be BioWare downplaying the aspects that didn't ultimately work in the trilogy, such as the lofty choices made in ME1 and ME2 that got all but retconned in 3, so far I actually like the choice & consequence design better in Andromeda than any previous BioWare game (sans... DA2 I think?) because of how subdued it is. It does downplay the overall excitement-factor of the game. If you put in a serious "live or die" ultimatum or some larger-than-life decision it would ramp up the stakes and increase the emotional resonance with what is going on but the approach they chose is surprisingly (maybe not even intentionally) high-brow. Now, to get back to the title. I was watching the Gameinformer podcast and some other stuff regarding the review of this game, and I was, as always dismayed at how contrary my opinion really is to those journalists. People gave 10/10s to ME3, didn't comment on the ending, said it was "the perfect way to wrap up the story" and I couldn't disagree more. I was so disappointed in BioWare that I hoped this game, unless it would be really good, would kinda flop critically so they could learn a lesson. Initially I was like "gotcha!" with the 74 metacritic score but upon further inspection It seems like the biggest reasons critics dislike the game aside from technical jank are for completely misconceptualized, trivialized and downright subconscious thinking. To list a few bulletpoints they often criticize that I find to be somewhat false. 1. The characters are not as memorable as in the trilogy. 2. The choices didn't seem to be as epic as in the trilogy. 3. Mass Effect 2 and 3 were much better than ME1. See, critics are probably the absolute worst at the whole "instant gratification" thing. They have a family to be with and kids to feed. They have friday night drinking and they have 10 more games to cover next week. Fandom aside they're not THAT into these games, so naturally from a dumb marvel moviegoers perspective (ha!) ME2 and ME3 are better games because they look more stylistically consistent to themselves, the mechanics feel tighter and the story feels more dramatic and less janky... sorry, I didn't mean to talk about this actually, I just get triggered when people discredit ME1 so completely. Anyway! See, critics are probably the worst at the whole "instant gratification" thing. They want immediate impact and feedback. The game has to be more epic than the last AAA summer blockbuster kind of game or they'll fall asleep playing it. The fact that choices don't seem to be as epic is in my opinion a misconception in the sense that they don't need to be as epic because epic in the first game may just lead to complete disappointment in the second game, and epic in itself, may not really serve a purpose for a game that is a slow start because not everything has to be turned up to 11 you know? The characters not being as memorable is another misconception. This is where my italicized " in the trilogy" comes into play. Whether it's Gamestop, Gameinformer or IGN, they're all shockingly subconscious about the fact that they're comparing 3 games's worth of character arcs here when they should be comparing to ME1; a game they already have forgotten everything about because its shooting was bad. The obsession with one-upping the trilogy is a bad precedent to impose on BioWare's vision that I hope BioWare does not bite at, but if they do I hope they do so lethally and bite back at it rather than to gobble it up and bend over backwards in fear for it. In short, Andromeda's choices are fine, maybe even more than fine compared to ME1, because they don't set up too many crazy promises despite there being room for a sequel and more importantly they serve the purpose of Ryder's arc and the Andromeda Initiative in a world-building sort of way rather than being about "YOUR DECISIONS WILL MATTER (TM)!" TL;DR: I respect that Andromeda vouches for more realistic choices that contribute to the setting rather than to create superfluous dramatic decisions that will eventually disappoint, and I think it makes it more immersive than in the trilogy. That said... the crit-path itself (the one you cannot influence with your decisions) is definitely not as good as ME1 (arguably 2 and 3 but I dunno)
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Post by armass81 on Mar 29, 2017 12:42:27 GMT
Yes, i think its silly to compare three games worth of characters and story to single game. They should have compared ME1 to MEA and only that, and also take off the nostalgia goggles.. if this game was to be compared with the totality of what came before there was no way it would have filled those shoes. Impossible task.
And concerning choices, the devs i think said they want to avoid this thing they made in the trilogy with choices branching into other choices in future games(and the mess it ultimately led into), and try to contain the story more into single games. This also can not be compared.
Let me do a brief comparison with ME1:
ME1: Story is excellent, combat is mediocre. Game looks half finished at points.
MEA: Story is mediocre, combat is excellent. Game looks half finished at points.
There you go.
Theyre also differetn kinds of stories. ME1 is about humanitys place in the galaxy, discovering this galactic huge treat and postponing it and the urgency of it all, while MEA is more of an exploration story of settling worlds, discovery and driving off invaders, with a newbie crew. Villain wise, it should be obvious theyre not upping the reapers. I think Bioware played its huge villain cards too early, and that was kind of a mistake.
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Post by PillarBiter on Mar 29, 2017 13:20:16 GMT
TL;DR: I respect that Andromeda vouches for more realistic choices that contribute to the setting rather than to create superfluous dramatic decisions that will eventually disappoint, and I think it makes it more immersive than in the trilogy. That said... the crit-path itself (the one you cannot influence with your decisions) is definitely not as good as ME1 (arguably 2 and 3 but I dunno) I concur, I actually liked the choices. They don't necessarily have to have an impact on the world, they have to impact me, personally as a player. I've definitely thought about some for a couple minutes with: "hmm, what woudl I do?" MEA does this well. Haven't finished the ciritcal path yet. But in all honesty, I don't mind much that there aren't too many divergent paths. Otherwise we'll just end up with another ME3 ending. And no one wants that...
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Post by shechinah on Mar 29, 2017 13:48:06 GMT
I concur, I actually liked the choices. They don't necessarily have to have an impact on the world, they have to impact me, personally as a player. I've definitely thought about some for a couple minutes with: "hmm, what woudl I do?" MEA does this well. Haven't finished the ciritcal path yet. But in all honesty, I don't mind much that there aren't too many divergent paths. Otherwise we'll just end up with another ME3 ending. And no one wants that... That and it prevents a situation where the story cannot be continued because each path diverges too much from each other. None of the trilogy endings could be continued because it'd require three separate games to fully explore the changes that each ending would bring and that couldn't be done. This is part of why I'd rather have smaller scale choices.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Mar 29, 2017 13:56:46 GMT
Yes, i think its silly to compare three games worth of characters and story to single game. They should have compared ME1 to MEA and only that, and also take off the nostalgia goggles.. if this game was to be compared with the totality of what came before there was no way it would have filled those shoes. Impossible task. And concerning choices, the devs i think said they want to avoid this thing they made in the trilogy with choices branching into other choices in future games(and the mess it ultimately led into), and try to contain the story more into single games. This also can not be compared. Let me do a brief comparison with ME1: ME1: Story is excellent, combat is mediocre. Game looks half finished at points. MEA: Story is mediocre, combat is excellent. Game looks half finished at points. There you go. Theyre also differetn kinds of stories. ME1 is about humanitys place in the galaxy, discovering this galactic huge treat and postponing it and the urgency of it all, while MEA is more of an exploration story of settling worlds, discovery and driving off invaders, with a newbie crew. Villain wise, it should be obvious theyre not upping the reapers. I think Bioware played its huge villain cards too early, and that was kind of a mistake. I've never liked people comparing Andromeda to any of the last games. its a spin off, it's not a direct sequel to the original as if it was, it'd be called mass effect 4 if it tied in with the original. Then there's the issue if "why does it have mass effect in the title then?" Well it is still in the mass effect universe ya know? There's also bioware mentioning they wanted to get away from the original trilogy, so that's another reason to not compare it. We can compare quality sure, does the combat improve like a mass effect game does? Yes, is the story up to standards? Debatable(personally no). Andromeda being a spin off and having no ties to the original also gives it freedom to experiment with different factors that the original trilogy couldn't. It's why bioware changed the dialogue system, are using profiles and limiting abilities in combat, taking a look at being an open world esq game rather than the linear corridor style that ME2 and 3 were. It's also annoying seeing "Andromedas characters suck" when they compare them to the original. Andromeda doesn't have 3 games on their characters, you have yet to be given the chance to get attached to them or see how choices later on can effect your relations with them. I like that Andromeda probably gives you the most information on a character than any previous game did. So while it has a so-so story, I love the characters.
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Post by roseofquartz on Mar 29, 2017 14:34:16 GMT
TL;DR: I respect that Andromeda vouches for more realistic choices that contribute to the setting rather than to create superfluous dramatic decisions that will eventually disappoint, and I think it makes it more immersive than in the trilogy. That said... the crit-path itself (the one you cannot influence with your decisions) is definitely not as good as ME1 (arguably 2 and 3 but I dunno) I concur, I actually liked the choices. They don't necessarily have to have an impact on the world, they have to impact me, personally as a player. I've definitely thought about some for a couple minutes with: "hmm, what woudl I do?" MEA does this well. Haven't finished the ciritcal path yet. But in all honesty, I don't mind much that there aren't too many divergent paths. Otherwise we'll just end up with another ME3 ending. And no one wants that... *bitter laughter*
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 29, 2017 14:47:44 GMT
I get what you are saying, and I agree. (thanks for the video) That said, you mentioning "realism" in the same sentence as ME:A doesn't do you any favors. I find the premise (and some of the content) of ME:A to be the most unrealistic by far in comparison to the other ME titles. When I say realism I mean to the internal logic of the game, but I get that MEA is often too vague in describing exactly what your decisions will do. Thematically setting up a science outpost vs military is great though as it plays into the theme about discovery and how you come across to the new races you discover. This is a theme the game never properly doubles down on, but whenever it has elements of it, like that choice, it feels right. I also think there was a place for Shepard's "larger than life" decisions or let's just be honest and call them "BioWare decisions" (Dragon Age all the way up to Inquisition had them too) and I most certainly think with a bigger time-frame, better vision and smarter creative design ME3 could've incoroporated all the 3-4 most largest decisions from 1 and 2 in meaningful ways but I think the premise of colonization and exploration in Andromeda creates a different tone and the decisions you get match that. It's similar to the side-quests in ME1 which I've always said are the best parts of the game in my blunt and upfront opinion. They do favors for world-building and Shepard's decision also plays more into the realism of Mass Effect in that part of the game than it does when he has to choose who lives or dies which the game promises will have "dire ramifications". Don't get me wrong I LOVED the big choice moments in 1 and 2. They feel great when you have to choose them but each and every time whether it was the Council choice or the Collector Base decision it amounted to jack shit in the end and that's where I've started to have a bigger appreciation to when BioWare just focuses on the smaller-scale choices instead where the importance of them is more about their effect during the game as opposed to what they will mean after the fact. But, also, yes, I agree that Andromeda really stretches the concept of Mass Effect too far. I can't tell whether I'm playing a cookie-cutter sci-fi fantasy or a hard-sci-fi space opera anymore. It really feels more like a Star Wars-esque fantasy setting with a sci-fi theme now...
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2017 15:05:24 GMT
The Council choice deserved to be retconned. Getting the Council killed wouldn't change the political realities which put that Council in place.
I guess that's an endorsement of the way ME:A is handling choices.
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Post by ticktak77 on Mar 29, 2017 15:52:01 GMT
Could that critical path ever be as good as the original trilogy though?
Keep in mind that they are establishing a new universe, in a new galaxy, with new backstory, lore, and characters.
It's very difficult to start from nothing, and get to everything, and then hand that off to the player to make significant decisions.
I think it's much more likely to have this as a base, and then build off of it with meaningful games and decisions in the future.
There's also the talking point about the Mass Effect 3 ending - we criticize it, without really understanding the design decisions that went into it. It could quite simply be that Bioware felt that they had backed themselves into a massive corner with all the various player choices that they had inroduced through 3 games, that there was simply no way they could deliver on an ending that could satisfying everyone's individual playing experience.
So, they opt for a more streamlined critical route?
I think both factors are at play here.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 29, 2017 16:15:57 GMT
Could that critical path ever be as good as the original trilogy though?
Keep in mind that they are establishing a new universe, in a new galaxy, with new backstory, lore, and characters.
It's very difficult to start from nothing, and get to everything, and then hand that off to the player to make significant decisions.
I think it's much more likely to have this as a base, and then build off of it with meaningful games and decisions in the future. There's also the talking point about the Mass Effect 3 ending - we criticize it, without really understanding the design decisions that went into it. It could quite simply be that Bioware felt that they had backed themselves into a massive corner with all the various player choices that they had inroduced through 3 games, that there was simply no way they could deliver on an ending that could satisfying everyone's individual playing experience. So, they opt for a more streamlined critical route? I think both factors are at play here. First bolded, I don't completely get what you mean? That Andromeda is less likely to have a good story because it's not a new IP, even though it's actually kind of a reboot? I'm not sure what you mean, but I would say this has exactly as high a chance to have a good plot as ME1 but they botched it, as I predicted, because it shows too often how weak BioWare has gotten with their loss of big talents like Drew K and Chris L'Etoile and several other lesser known members in the staff who don't work on Mass Effect anymore. They've hired too many who are just fans who can't think up new ideas as creatively and Mac Walters is and has always been a really poor substitute for Drew and especially Casey Hudson IMO. Second bolded, we may never know exactly what Casey, Mac and the other Leads were discussing, no, but any writer worth their salt could've made the ending rewarding even with the Starchild being the final concept. All ME3 was missing was a stronger resonance in the denoument instead of derailing the plot with 14 lines of dialogue (yes, in the original ending 14 lines of dialogue was all it took to turn "Reapers are evil, we must stop them!" into "Organics will be killed by synthetics, we must stop this!"). Replace the broken 14 lines of dialogue with something that rung true that we couldn't deny in Shepard's journey such as "Organics, synthetics and everything organics have created, from wars to pollution etc. will eventually be a threat to yourselves, the universe and even us; the Reapers." or keep it to Synthetics vs Organics but show that it's not cut and dry and has to be argued until Shepard's final words would ring true to the overall theme of the series or something. Then make some kind of choice. Whatever. I refuse to believe even if they were getting into a corner that no writer could've at least made it decent. It would take someone as stupid as Mac Walters to completely botch the execution of a scene that is really important. He did the same thing before, like the intro and in his comics. The best thing he ever wrote was Garrus's Loyalty arc in ME2, and that's not really outstanding but it was fine if very vague and generic "Revenge or forgiveness".
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Post by ticktak77 on Mar 29, 2017 16:25:22 GMT
Could that critical path ever be as good as the original trilogy though?
Keep in mind that they are establishing a new universe, in a new galaxy, with new backstory, lore, and characters.
It's very difficult to start from nothing, and get to everything, and then hand that off to the player to make significant decisions.
I think it's much more likely to have this as a base, and then build off of it with meaningful games and decisions in the future. There's also the talking point about the Mass Effect 3 ending - we criticize it, without really understanding the design decisions that went into it. It could quite simply be that Bioware felt that they had backed themselves into a massive corner with all the various player choices that they had inroduced through 3 games, that there was simply no way they could deliver on an ending that could satisfying everyone's individual playing experience. So, they opt for a more streamlined critical route? I think both factors are at play here. First bolded, I don't completely get what you mean? Second bolded, we may never know exactly what Casey, Mac and the other Leads were discussing, no, What I'm saying first is - is it reasonable to expect an epic story full of tons of player choices that all end up branching away into a very personal story ending? I'm saying No. Coming off saving the Reapers, you were never going to get a massive story with diverging branches simply because I think you need a fully fleshed out world for that to really feel relevant - and Andromeda isn't about fleshing out the world, so much as it is about exploring and delivering hope. There's a tonal shift there. Second - Very true. I tend to believe that the ending fell on it's face because BW realized that they had so many differing pathways and individual player pathways, that they couldn't reliably create an ending that encapsulated all of it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 29, 2017 16:38:37 GMT
A lot of this illustrates part of what I like so much about this. After looking at the OT's overarching plot in its entirety, I'd love for BioWare to avoid those "epic" overambitious decisions that they can't reasonably account for later.
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