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Post by o Ventus on Mar 29, 2017 17:26:24 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking.
For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant.
Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points.
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Post by havard on Mar 29, 2017 17:28:29 GMT
I have to agree with this whole Asari male thing being a bunch of horseshit.
A clear attempt to shoehorn in some of that oh-so-sweet trans representation.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 29, 2017 17:54:40 GMT
Oh man, where do I start?!?
I mean, I kinda like the game on it's own but they should have made this a new IP or a reboot or a parallel universe or something because it just doesn't fit into the ME universe as we knew it at all (and I say this despite the fact that I usually despise reboots and parallel universes and that sort of thing).
Let's start with the premise: Why go to Andromeda? In 2185 1% of the Milky Way is explored. You don't need to be 600 years in cryo and take the most stupid-ass risk in history to get a fresh start or satisfy your inner urge to explore at that point. I am not through the game yet and maybe there is some secret reason (I am just saying: reapers) that would make this more believable but even if there is, the whole "fresh start/pioneer spirit" thing seems to be the motivation for most low level people you can ask and that already makes no sense. This by the way is also a problem while playing because to me, all those people in the AI aren't brave, they are simply stupid. For example, when we arrive at the Nexus and are supposed to be like "Oh noooo, this can't be happening!!!", I was outright laughing at them thinking "You idiots!!! This was so completely unnecessary and stupid, you deserve what you got." (and if I think my own protagonist is stupid, it doesn't help with identification either).
Then, there is the technology they used: An ODSY drive would have made a HUGE difference for the original trilogy plot. Not only could the Milky Way people have outmaneuvered the reapers to some extent, who clearly don't have that technology. The bigger problem is that even the faint possibility to cross dark space and travel to other galaxies makes the reapers' cycle of extinction scheme a complete and utter joke. "Yea, we'll keep the Milky Way in check with the cycles and if synthetics develop in other galaxies, where they are a couple of billion years ahead of us in development because we just hibernate and do the same shit all over again every 50.000 years without progress, I am sure it'll be fine" It's even more BS now than it used to be. And Shepard doesn't even mention this (well, it wasn't retconned yet at the time, right?).
Tech Nr. 2: SAM. SAM is a complete and utter violation of council rules on A.I. but all four council races built one without the council stepping in? Did they keep it secret? Oh, I am sure the council didn't mind them building "SAM nodes" into their dreadnought sized ARK ships without supervision or control. Governments usually don't care, right? Oh and what about a bunch of private investors building a space station almost as big as the Citadel itself just like that within 10 years that is also capable of flying to another galaxy? I am sure that was easy.
Timelines: When the Andromeda Initiative was founded, humans had interstellar space flight for just over 20 years. and first contact happened 15 years before. Yet, a private human businesswoman has the clout to start the most ambitious undertaking in the history of - at the very least - this reaper cycle (if not all cycles) as a multilateral cooperative endeavor involving almost all MW species. She did this despite the fact that the other species and their galactic economies are millennia older and more advanced? I mean, the ME timeline was always shoddy at best but this brings it to a whole other level.
They take Krogan to Andromeda and try to cure the genophage (by trying to run gene therapy during cryosleep, which is complete BS on its own but ok). I mean, I am sure the salarians and turians on the initiative were thrilled about that idea, right?
I could go on for ages like this, those are just some points from the top of my head. While I do agree that the Asari male thing is just stupid and takes away from the species' interest factor, at least they just decided to call themselves something different, I can work with that even if I think it was unnecessary and stupid. I do not buy some of the fundamental premises of this setup though and while I do really like the game itself, I'll never be able to play it without some measure of contempt because of those issues.
I am not entirely through the story yet but if they don't come up with something absolutely amazing at some point, calling this Mass Effect is a bit of a farce.
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Post by ticktak77 on Mar 29, 2017 18:03:10 GMT
The SAM stuff confuses me.
Admittedly, I haven't reached the end of the Family Secrets quest, but it does seem bizarre that something that Alec Ryder tried so hard to keep secret and develop, is now common place amongst all the Arks.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 29, 2017 18:07:34 GMT
Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. I believe Liara even says as much in ME1
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Post by havard on Mar 29, 2017 18:08:00 GMT
The SAM stuff confuses me. Admittedly, I haven't reached the end of the Family Secrets quest, but it does seem bizarre that something that Alec Ryder tried so hard to keep secret and develop, is now common place amongst all the Arks. Not sure if you want to know this yet...but... ...the humans' SAM does explain how the other SAM's are not as advanced as he is.
Alec deliberately withheld the coolest bits from the other races.
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Post by azarhal on Mar 29, 2017 18:15:06 GMT
The SAM stuff confuses me. Admittedly, I haven't reached the end of the Family Secrets quest, but it does seem bizarre that something that Alec Ryder tried so hard to keep secret and develop, is now common place amongst all the Arks. Not sure if you want to know this yet...but... ...the humans' SAM does explain how the other SAM's are not as advanced as he is.
Alec deliberately withheld the coolest bits from the other races. He should already know that, SAM mention it in the very first conversation you have with it on the Hyperion.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 29, 2017 18:20:44 GMT
Not sure if you want to know this yet...but... ...the humans' SAM does explain how the other SAM's are not as advanced as he is.
Alec deliberately withheld the coolest bits from the other races. He should already know that, SAM mention it in the very first conversation you have with it on the Hyperion. Yes, it's part of a very early conversation. Still, the other SAMs, while maybe not as sophisticated are still described as fully functional A.I.s. IIRC, the majory thing Alec withheld was the massive interaction with the Pathfinders physiology to enhance abilities (like the profiles).
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 29, 2017 18:22:42 GMT
Wait... the male asari thing wasn't just forum satire? (I've been going through the game really slowly, to explore before my first playthrough ends.)
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 29, 2017 18:27:41 GMT
Wait... the male asari thing wasn't just forum satire? (I've been going through the game really slowly, to explore before my first playthrough ends.) There are conversations that you can have with Lexi T'perro, the Tempest's doctor, where the topic can drift to asari genders. There may be more NPCs in addition to Lexi, but she's the one that I know of.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 29, 2017 18:31:43 GMT
Wait... the male asari thing wasn't just forum satire? (I've been going through the game really slowly, to explore before my first playthrough ends.) There are conversations that you can have with Lexi T'perro, the Tempest's doctor, where the topic can drift to asari genders. There may be more NPCs in addition to Lexi, but she's the one that I know of. And apparently there's ambient dialogue on Nexus. This is so painfully shoehorned.
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Post by tantumdicverbo on Mar 29, 2017 18:32:56 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. Don't ever change, Bioware. XD
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Post by ticktak77 on Mar 29, 2017 18:35:53 GMT
The SAM stuff confuses me. Admittedly, I haven't reached the end of the Family Secrets quest, but it does seem bizarre that something that Alec Ryder tried so hard to keep secret and develop, is now common place amongst all the Arks. Not sure if you want to know this yet...but... ...the humans' SAM does explain how the other SAM's are not as advanced as he is.
Alec deliberately withheld the coolest bits from the other races. I know that, but: In One of Alec's memories it's quite clear that the Citadel authorities are against AI like SAM, unless I misinterpreted that scene.
Seems strange that they'd be against that sort of AI, yet every Ark has one
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Post by ymirr on Mar 29, 2017 18:38:28 GMT
As far as I gathered from the original trilogy, they are neither male nor female. (Liara, "male and female have no real meaning for us,") As for their titles matriarch etc, may just be best translation the translators could make? Since dealing with species that do deal with male/female pronouns, I suppose the properties we gave those pronouns had specific meaning to various asari, making them take on whichever pronoun they felt fit them as a person. Wasn't also the non child bearing one, of asari couples referred to as the "father"? But I don't know, I was never that into reading codexes and whatnot.
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Post by mordrek on Mar 29, 2017 18:39:36 GMT
The Trans-humanism push is probably the most egregious of the retcons. I mean in the OT the Admiral is actually worried if information gets out that humans were researching AI (project overlord) it could start a war with the other council races. They even reference Project Overlord in the game for a quest. Yet somehow, Alec was able to not only create a superior AI in such a short time, they made 4 of them, and used implants to link them directly to pathfinders.
I also think having every race act "human" is a huge retcon. I miss the militant Turians who hate humans because of the First Contact War. I miss the haughty, sexy Asari, who look at the other races like children who need to be guided/controlled. And most of all I miss the Krogan, who'd rather nuke their planet to dust than compromise. They really sucked the soul and uniqueness out of the races.
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 29, 2017 18:43:39 GMT
As far as I gathered from the original trilogy, they are neither male nor female. (Liara, "male and female have no real meaning for us,") As for their titles matriarch etc, may just be best translation the translators could make? Since dealing with species that do deal with male/female pronouns, I suppose the properties we gave those pronouns had specific meaning to various asari, making them take on whichever pronoun they felt fit them as a person. Wasn't also the non child bearing one, of asari couples referred to as the "father"? But I don't know, I was never that into reading codexes and whatnot. The asari are monogendered, meaning they have 1 available gender. In this case, it's female. The codex even refers to them as "all-female". IIRC, referring to the non-birthing asari parent as the "father" is just for the sake of clarity for other races so their conversations don't get confusing.
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Post by ymirr on Mar 29, 2017 18:46:12 GMT
As far as I gathered from the original trilogy, they are neither male nor female. (Liara, "male and female have no real meaning for us,") As for their titles matriarch etc, may just be best translation the translators could make? Since dealing with species that do deal with male/female pronouns, I suppose the properties we gave those pronouns had specific meaning to various asari, making them take on whichever pronoun they felt fit them as a person. Wasn't also the non child bearing one, of asari couples referred to as the "father"? But I don't know, I was never that into reading codexes and whatnot. The asari are monogendered, meaning they have 1 available gender. In this case, it's female. The codex even refers to them as "all-female". IIRC, referring to the non-birthing asari parent as the "father" is just for the sake of clarity for other races so their conversations don't get confusing. Yet Liara says "female" have no meaning to them?
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PSN: DFMelancholine
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Post by commandercryptarch on Mar 29, 2017 18:52:40 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. Wait...wait! Asari have male pronouns now in their culture?Since when? The only time they ever used male terms was when they talked about their mates,no matter what gender or species. If the mate was a female human,she'd still be called "father".Isn't that right? Don't remember them calling eachother as "he".
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Post by mordrek on Mar 29, 2017 18:56:47 GMT
The asari are monogendered, meaning they have 1 available gender. In this case, it's female. The codex even refers to them as "all-female". IIRC, referring to the non-birthing asari parent as the "father" is just for the sake of clarity for other races so their conversations don't get confusing. Yet Liara says "female" have no meaning to them? If you only had one gender, there would be no "male" , and therefore no "female". It's still pretty ham fisted writing, since clearly most species of life are binary, so biologically they would have a male and female understanding. She's probably just referencing that Asari culture doesn't use those terms for themselves.
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Post by mastert on Mar 29, 2017 18:57:20 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. Wait...wait! Asari have male pronouns now in their culture?Since when? The only time they ever used male terms was when they talked about their mates,no matter what gender or species. If the mate was a female human,she'd still be called "father".Isn't that right? Don't remember them calling eachother as "he". Tumblr writers helped changed this, asari are non binary non cis and use different pronouns now.
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Post by ymirr on Mar 29, 2017 18:59:21 GMT
Yet Liara says "female" have no meaning to them? If you only had one gender, there would be no "male" , and therefore no "female". It's still pretty ham fisted writing, since clearly most species of life are binary, so biologically they would have a male and female understanding. She's probably just referencing that Asari culture doesn't use those terms for themselves. Which was where I was coming from, they themselves may not have such pronouns. There are after all languages on this planet with no gender pronouns etc. But when asari deal with other species, why not apply a gender pronoun to themselves which they consider fit them best? For us that may seem to be female at all times, but t... Hhh. Well stuff. =P
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 29, 2017 19:04:41 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. Wait...wait! Asari have male pronouns now in their culture?Since when? The only time they ever used male terms was when they talked about their mates,no matter what gender or species. If the mate was a female human,she'd still be called "father".Isn't that right? Don't remember them calling eachother as "he". Technically yes, the human female would be the "father". The "male" asari are mentioned by the ship's doctor in Andromeda, and someone else mentioned that there are ambient conversations you can hear that discuss the topic.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 29, 2017 19:09:02 GMT
I also think having every race act "human" is a huge retcon. I miss the militant Turians who hate humans because of the First Contact War. I miss the haughty, sexy Asari, who look at the other races like children who need to be guided/controlled. And most of all I miss the Krogan, who'd rather nuke their planet to dust than compromise. They really sucked the soul and uniqueness out of the races. To some extent, wouldn't there be a selection bias here given that those of council races who would join a human-led mission would be inherently more cooperative with other races? (Tann is pure scumbag salarian, of course.) As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. Wait...wait! Asari have male pronouns now in their culture?Since when? The only time they ever used male terms was when they talked about their mates,no matter what gender or species. If the mate was a female human,she'd still be called "father".Isn't that right? Don't remember them calling eachother as "he". They do as of last week...
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Jan 30, 2017 19:00:27 GMT
January 2017
transcendent
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Post by Transcendent on Mar 29, 2017 19:12:12 GMT
That is kind of what happens when you have like 2 percent of the people left over from the original trilogy writing and creating this game.
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havox
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 112 Likes: 141
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havox
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August 2016
havox
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by havox on Mar 29, 2017 19:18:26 GMT
Yet Liara says "female" have no meaning to them? Liara explicitly mentions they're mono-gendered and don't think of themselves as male or female, twice. In asari-asari relationship one of them would assume a male role, but would still not think of themselves as male.
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