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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 14, 2017 0:30:13 GMT
Ok, this may actually not be an inconsistency because I think I might have missed something there twowards the end of the plot. So if someone knows how this is supposed to work, please let me know. Here is the issue (don't read unless yuo have finished the main plot): So the Nexus people are super worried in the beginning of the game (and also later, at least Drack is) that the Kett will find the Nexus. Because if they do, people say that they'll have no chance against the Kett's overwhelming numbers and the Nexus really has no defenses as such, yadda yadda. Thing is, through Ryder, the Archon does find the Nexus. He goes there to commandeer the Hyperion (which is docked at the Nexus) and kidnap the Ryder sibling. At this point, he also is still traveling with his entire armada apparently. So why is the Nexus still around and basically in the same condition as before the ending, after you do the Meridian mission? I mean, the Archon had to board the station to get to the Hyperion anyway, I assume. Why wouldn't he conquer it or take it out? Was he in such a hurry? If so, why? Didn't he still assume that Protagonist Ryder is dead at this point? I don't get it but as I said, it's very possible I missed something. Thoughts are welcome. This is just a real "SHRUG" thing to me becuase it harkens back to one of Andromeda's recurring issues that are very general to the game which is that it never, never, ever sets up its "moments" before they happen. You go to Habitat 7 and meet some aliens and the script almost acts as if this is routine. Daddy dies because stuff and this is rather weak but fine, at least it's set up. But then you bump into Archie Archon and the plot acts as if we already know him, especially when the crew starts talking about him afterwards by name (do we even get an introduction?) then we go to Aya and we just walk around with the Angara as if they're now the main focus of the story (weren't we supposed to like... get those worlds working?). Some of the following stuff on Voeld and not-Virmire is fine in terms of setup but then you go to Meridian and suddenly Archon is just on board Hyperion with no signs of panic over comms or any foreshadowing like Dunn going "Ryder, Hyperion is tracking unknown ship IDs. We may have a situation" or SOMETHING, but no, suddenly Archon is just in SAM Node and everyone's panicking. So much for having an all-in-one 1:1 voice chat with everyone on the Nexus the rest of the game. There are these 3 fundamentally game-changing plot-beats that are just introduced as if it's nothing, as if the writers didn't notice or care that this was broken up with almost no cohesion. I hope it's because stuff got cut because the plot basically disappears upon bumping into Archon. There is a huge disconnect right there and once again when Archon is just on Hyperion. This is the significance of "plot". If it's well done it feels natural. If not it's hard to follow and you never want a story to make the audience go "Wait, what? But what about...? Huh?" when big revelations happen. You want to emphasize the revelation and allow the player to relish in that too. I'm sure they intended the scene where Archon shows up on video feed to be foreboding and "here is our bad guy" but it just doesn't come across when Ryder reacts like it's just another day at the job and the same thing when landing on Aya and the same thing when Archon is just suddenly in the middle of the Hyperion.
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Post by LilTIM on Apr 14, 2017 0:41:49 GMT
My guess is that the devs prioritised having a big impact on the player, by putting the Archon right there on SAM's node, instead of making a protracted scenario where kett invade the nexus (kinda like ME1 geth) and not-saren goes to find the not-conduit.
I'm thinking it's the same way we meet the Archon the first time, we jump FTL and he's just there waiting. What are the chances of that? It's also never explained how the tempest is able to escape their traction beam.
These moments seem to be done only for the shock factor and without bothering to really incorporate them into the narrative.
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Post by kleindropper on Apr 14, 2017 0:51:52 GMT
The entire concept of being able to travel to Andromeda is a big problem. If anyone had this technology in 2185, it means instant defeat of the Reaper invasion since you could travel to areas of the Milky Way beyond Reaper influence, just as the Protheans did on Ilos.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 14, 2017 1:04:18 GMT
Why wouldn't they have gendered pronouns? They wouldn't make some up for the gendered species they encountered? Heck, we've come up with new pronouns in just the last decade. HE/SHE HIM/HER HIS/HER zie zim zir sie sie hir ey em eir ve ver vis 1) They don't stick: no one uses them because they feel unnatural, so they never make it into the lexicon. Just because I can decide that phones are now called "ditles" or something doesn't mean that other people will understand me when I say "Hold on, I think my ditle is ringing." (And even that would have a better chance of being accepted into the lexicon than a new pronoun would.) The language centers of our brain just cannot accept that there is a need for pronouns in addition to what it already has stored. When was the last time you used an archaic pronoun like "whom" in a situation that felt natural? 2) There is no need to make new pronouns because there is nothing wrong with using the non-gendered ones for bi-gendered species. It would not even occur to them to do so unless they were proficient in alien languages, but even then, would an English speaker's knowledge that Spanish assigns gendered endings to the words for inanimate objects, for example, compel them to incorporate that feature into their own language? Let's say the asari pronoun is "blah." When speaking about an asari: "I talked to Liara yesterday. Blah's so smart!" When speaking about a human male: "I talked to Joker yesterday. Blah's so funny!" No problem. We don't know for sure that every species on the Asari homeworld is mono-gendered. Therefore, if they just owned pets that had different genders they would have different pronouns for them because it has meaning. Sapient species always look to differentiate themselves from others. Ethnicity (black, white), gender (male, female), etc. Asari do it too. Pureblood vs not. And so if there is a difference in something, like their pets' genders or the aliens they meet, they will create a word to explain that difference. BTW I use "whom" when appropriate, and do so naturally. But basically your argument is that you feel it would be unnecessary for the Asari to come up with pronouns to describe different genders. That's fine, you can feel that way. But that's not the argument. The argument was that there's no reason that they should even have words for different genders or different pronouns. I've given plenty of legitimate, logical reasons for them to have created those additional pronouns. You can say that people won't pick up on the use of "zir" and whatnot, and you might be right. But some people are. And so it could stick. So there is precedent for the creation of new pronouns to describe new things, and so to say it's impossible for the Asari to have done that is just WRONG. You can say you find it unlikely or odd, but I've proven that it's possible,has been done by other sentient species, and could have stemmed from something as simple as there being other multi-gendered animals on their homeworld that they developed on. All I had to do was prove that it is possible, not likely.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 14, 2017 1:08:25 GMT
Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points.
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whanzephruseke
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Post by whanzephruseke on Apr 14, 2017 21:49:47 GMT
1) They don't stick: no one uses them because they feel unnatural, so they never make it into the lexicon. Just because I can decide that phones are now called "ditles" or something doesn't mean that other people will understand me when I say "Hold on, I think my ditle is ringing." (And even that would have a better chance of being accepted into the lexicon than a new pronoun would.) The language centers of our brain just cannot accept that there is a need for pronouns in addition to what it already has stored. When was the last time you used an archaic pronoun like "whom" in a situation that felt natural? 2) There is no need to make new pronouns because there is nothing wrong with using the non-gendered ones for bi-gendered species. It would not even occur to them to do so unless they were proficient in alien languages, but even then, would an English speaker's knowledge that Spanish assigns gendered endings to the words for inanimate objects, for example, compel them to incorporate that feature into their own language? Let's say the asari pronoun is "blah." When speaking about an asari: "I talked to Liara yesterday. Blah's so smart!" When speaking about a human male: "I talked to Joker yesterday. Blah's so funny!" No problem. We don't know for sure that every species on the Asari homeworld is mono-gendered. Therefore, if they just owned pets that had different genders they would have different pronouns for them because it has meaning. Sapient species always look to differentiate themselves from others. Ethnicity (black, white), gender (male, female), etc. Asari do it too. Pureblood vs not. And so if there is a difference in something, like their pets' genders or the aliens they meet, they will create a word to explain that difference. BTW I use "whom" when appropriate, and do so naturally. But basically your argument is that you feel it would be unnecessary for the Asari to come up with pronouns to describe different genders. That's fine, you can feel that way. But that's not the argument. The argument was that there's no reason that they should even have words for different genders or different pronouns. I've given plenty of legitimate, logical reasons for them to have created those additional pronouns. You can say that people won't pick up on the use of "zir" and whatnot, and you might be right. But some people are. And so it could stick. So there is precedent for the creation of new pronouns to describe new things, and so to say it's impossible for the Asari to have done that is just WRONG. You can say you find it unlikely or odd, but I've proven that it's possible,has been done by other sentient species, and could have stemmed from something as simple as there being other multi-gendered animals on their homeworld that they developed on. All I had to do was prove that it is possible, not likely. Bolding is mine to show original context of the points addressed below. "Therefore, if they just owned pets that had different genders they would have different pronouns for them because it has meaning." Pronouns are a grammatical feature, not a semantic one. You are confusing grammatical gender with semantic gender. Also, most languages just use neuter pronouns for animals. See the Wikipedia entry on grammatical gender for a more detailed explanation. "Ethnicity (black, white), gender (male, female), etc." Exactly my point. English doesn't have different pronouns for people based on their race, and many natural languages do not even use pronouns to differentiate on the basis of gender, either. It makes even less sense for a culture that does not differentiate socially between genders to suddenly decide to do so, especially since there is plenty of established lore stating that the asari dgaf about gender. To an asari, gender is no more defining of a feature than the length of someone's hair tentacles; asari native speakers creating gender-specific pronouns would be as ridiculous as native speakers of English creating pronouns for people with specific eye colors. "And so if there is a difference in something, like their pets' genders or the aliens they meet, they will create a word to explain that difference." Absolutely, they would create words. They'd create content words (such as nouns and adjectives); they would not create function words (such as pronouns or tense markers). Function words develop naturally within a language, while content words can be consciously "invented." "The argument was that there's no reason that they should even have words for different genders or different pronouns." Those are two separate arguments, the first of which we all agree is ridiculous and thus have discarded. "So there is precedent for the creation of new pronouns to describe new things, and so to say it's impossible for the Asari to have done that is just WRONG." First of all, as the one with the linguistics degree, I think I might be a bit more clear on the standards for linguistic arguments than you assume. Secondly, a word must be accepted into the lexicon before it is considered to be part of a language, and that is a process that happens unconsciously on a societal level and follows observable natural laws. Five people consciously deciding that "xe" is now a gender-neutral pronoun does not make it English from a linguistic perspective, just as the fact that I can stop small objects from falling by catching them does not invalidate the law of gravity. I personally think it would make a lot of sense for asari not to have pronouns at all in their language, like Japanese.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 14, 2017 22:21:37 GMT
We don't know for sure that every species on the Asari homeworld is mono-gendered. Therefore, if they just owned pets that had different genders they would have different pronouns for them because it has meaning. Sapient species always look to differentiate themselves from others. Ethnicity (black, white), gender (male, female), etc. Asari do it too. Pureblood vs not. And so if there is a difference in something, like their pets' genders or the aliens they meet, they will create a word to explain that difference. BTW I use "whom" when appropriate, and do so naturally. But basically your argument is that you feel it would be unnecessary for the Asari to come up with pronouns to describe different genders. That's fine, you can feel that way. But that's not the argument. The argument was that there's no reason that they should even have words for different genders or different pronouns. I've given plenty of legitimate, logical reasons for them to have created those additional pronouns. You can say that people won't pick up on the use of "zir" and whatnot, and you might be right. But some people are. And so it could stick. So there is precedent for the creation of new pronouns to describe new things, and so to say it's impossible for the Asari to have done that is just WRONG. You can say you find it unlikely or odd, but I've proven that it's possible,has been done by other sentient species, and could have stemmed from something as simple as there being other multi-gendered animals on their homeworld that they developed on. All I had to do was prove that it is possible, not likely. Bolding is mine to show original context of the points addressed below. "Therefore, if they just owned pets that had different genders they would have different pronouns for them because it has meaning." Pronouns are a grammatical feature, not a semantic one. You are confusing grammatical gender with semantic gender. Also, most languages just use neuter pronouns for animals. See the Wikipedia entry on grammatical gender for a more detailed explanation. "Ethnicity (black, white), gender (male, female), etc." Exactly my point. English doesn't have different pronouns for people based on their race, and many natural languages do not even use pronouns to differentiate on the basis of gender, either. It makes even less sense for a culture that does not differentiate socially between genders to suddenly decide to do so, especially since there is plenty of established lore stating that the asari dgaf about gender. To an asari, gender is no more defining of a feature than the length of someone's hair tentacles; asari native speakers creating gender-specific pronouns would be as ridiculous as native speakers of English creating pronouns for people with specific eye colors. "And so if there is a difference in something, like their pets' genders or the aliens they meet, they will create a word to explain that difference." Absolutely, they would create words. They'd create content words (such as nouns and adjectives); they would not create function words (such as pronouns or tense markers). Function words develop naturally within a language, while content words can be consciously "invented." "The argument was that there's no reason that they should even have words for different genders or different pronouns." Those are two separate arguments, the first of which we all agree is ridiculous and thus have discarded. "So there is precedent for the creation of new pronouns to describe new things, and so to say it's impossible for the Asari to have done that is just WRONG." First of all, as the one with the linguistics degree, I think I might be a bit more clear on the standards for linguistic arguments than you assume. Secondly, a word must be accepted into the lexicon before it is considered to be part of a language, and that is a process that happens unconsciously on a societal level and follows observable natural laws. Five people consciously deciding that "xe" is now a gender-neutral pronoun does not make it English from a linguistic perspective, just as the fact that I can stop small objects from falling by catching them does not invalidate the law of gravity. I personally think it would make a lot of sense for asari not to have pronouns at all in their language, like Japanese. See, the problem is your assumptions and how you go about your arguments. Bringing up examples of things like "English doesn't have different pronouns based on ethnicity" doesn't matter. It's an example of a negative, sure, but that doesn't prove that the negative is the case always. It just proves in that instance that that is true. You cannot prove a negative existence with negative examples. You also assume that Asari wouldn't care about gender in their pets or other animals on their home planet while they were developing language. But I can assume that they might care about them, and I'm just as right as you are in that regard, because we just don't know. But the fact that we don't know gives my assumption equal validity and thus makes the rest of what I said equally possible. Sure, they might not have cared enough to create pronouns based on gender because blah blah blah I'm a linguist and stuff with humans. Great. However, they could have because it could be natural for them to create those pronouns because why wouldn't it be? You can say that for some cultures that it's not. But for some it is, so it might be for Asari. It might now, but it also might be. So as much as you personally think it would make sense for Asari to not have pronouns, it makes just as much sense for them to have pronouns in their language. You just cannot deny that it's possible and even likely. It's at least as possible and likely as their being gender pronouns in any language. It's undeniable. And that's the point. Just to say that it's possible.
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whanzephruseke
N2
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Posts: 61 Likes: 51
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Post by whanzephruseke on Apr 14, 2017 22:42:03 GMT
Bolding is mine to show original context of the points addressed below. "Therefore, if they just owned pets that had different genders they would have different pronouns for them because it has meaning." Pronouns are a grammatical feature, not a semantic one. You are confusing grammatical gender with semantic gender. Also, most languages just use neuter pronouns for animals. See the Wikipedia entry on grammatical gender for a more detailed explanation. "Ethnicity (black, white), gender (male, female), etc." Exactly my point. English doesn't have different pronouns for people based on their race, and many natural languages do not even use pronouns to differentiate on the basis of gender, either. It makes even less sense for a culture that does not differentiate socially between genders to suddenly decide to do so, especially since there is plenty of established lore stating that the asari dgaf about gender. To an asari, gender is no more defining of a feature than the length of someone's hair tentacles; asari native speakers creating gender-specific pronouns would be as ridiculous as native speakers of English creating pronouns for people with specific eye colors. "And so if there is a difference in something, like their pets' genders or the aliens they meet, they will create a word to explain that difference." Absolutely, they would create words. They'd create content words (such as nouns and adjectives); they would not create function words (such as pronouns or tense markers). Function words develop naturally within a language, while content words can be consciously "invented." "The argument was that there's no reason that they should even have words for different genders or different pronouns." Those are two separate arguments, the first of which we all agree is ridiculous and thus have discarded. "So there is precedent for the creation of new pronouns to describe new things, and so to say it's impossible for the Asari to have done that is just WRONG." First of all, as the one with the linguistics degree, I think I might be a bit more clear on the standards for linguistic arguments than you assume. Secondly, a word must be accepted into the lexicon before it is considered to be part of a language, and that is a process that happens unconsciously on a societal level and follows observable natural laws. Five people consciously deciding that "xe" is now a gender-neutral pronoun does not make it English from a linguistic perspective, just as the fact that I can stop small objects from falling by catching them does not invalidate the law of gravity. I personally think it would make a lot of sense for asari not to have pronouns at all in their language, like Japanese. See, the problem is your assumptions and how you go about your arguments. Bringing up examples of things like "English doesn't have different pronouns based on ethnicity" doesn't matter. It's an example of a negative, sure, but that doesn't prove that the negative is the case always. It just proves in that instance that that is true. You cannot prove a negative existence with negative examples. You also assume that Asari wouldn't care about gender in their pets or other animals on their home planet while they were developing language. But I can assume that they might care about them, and I'm just as right as you are in that regard, because we just don't know. But the fact that we don't know gives my assumption equal validity and thus makes the rest of what I said equally possible. Sure, they might not have cared enough to create pronouns based on gender because blah blah blah I'm a linguist and stuff with humans. Great. However, they could have because it could be natural for them to create those pronouns because why wouldn't it be? You can say that for some cultures that it's not. But for some it is, so it might be for Asari. It might now, but it also might be. So as much as you personally think it would make sense for Asari to not have pronouns, it makes just as much sense for them to have pronouns in their language. You just cannot deny that it's possible and even likely. It's at least as possible and likely as their being gender pronouns in any language. It's undeniable. And that's the point. Just to say that it's possible. But the writers clearly didn't consider any of the things we've been talking about when they wrote that dialogue, or even care. They just wanted to virtue signal, not write something believable. The conversation sounds like it came out of the brain of a 12 year old writing their first fanfic, as do a lot of conversations throughout the game, but at least said 12 year old fanfic writer would bother to explain their canon- and logic-breaking writing decisions with author's notes. The extent to which the writers gave zero fucks about believablility is apparent to everyone; it's just that much more aggravating to me personally because I know exactly why it is so overwhelmingly improbable as to be a joke.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 23:01:05 GMT
Funny, innit, how we have some people unhappy that aliens are rubber-masked humans (not alien enough) while others continually anthropomorphize aliens by trying to impose our standards on them.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 14, 2017 23:16:33 GMT
See, the problem is your assumptions and how you go about your arguments. Bringing up examples of things like "English doesn't have different pronouns based on ethnicity" doesn't matter. It's an example of a negative, sure, but that doesn't prove that the negative is the case always. It just proves in that instance that that is true. You cannot prove a negative existence with negative examples. You also assume that Asari wouldn't care about gender in their pets or other animals on their home planet while they were developing language. But I can assume that they might care about them, and I'm just as right as you are in that regard, because we just don't know. But the fact that we don't know gives my assumption equal validity and thus makes the rest of what I said equally possible. Sure, they might not have cared enough to create pronouns based on gender because blah blah blah I'm a linguist and stuff with humans. Great. However, they could have because it could be natural for them to create those pronouns because why wouldn't it be? You can say that for some cultures that it's not. But for some it is, so it might be for Asari. It might now, but it also might be. So as much as you personally think it would make sense for Asari to not have pronouns, it makes just as much sense for them to have pronouns in their language. You just cannot deny that it's possible and even likely. It's at least as possible and likely as their being gender pronouns in any language. It's undeniable. And that's the point. Just to say that it's possible. But the writers clearly didn't consider any of the things we've been talking about when they wrote that dialogue, or even care. They just wanted to virtue signal, not write something believable. The conversation sounds like it came out of the brain of a 12 year old writing their first fanfic, as do a lot of conversations throughout the game, but at least said 12 year old fanfic writer would bother to explain their canon- and logic-breaking writing decisions with author's notes. The extent to which the writers gave zero fucks about believablility is apparent to everyone; it's just that much more aggravating to me personally because I know exactly why it is so overwhelmingly improbable as to be a joke. I'm not sure why you think the writers didn't consider these things. I for one found it perfectly believable, especially when you consider that most people willing to drop everything in their lives, be frozen for 600 years, and then wake up in an entirely alien galaxy, never to see their families or friends or familiar things in the Milky Way again with no guarantee of safety or success might possibly be, for the most part, the fringe elements of society looking to start anew in a place where maybe their "fringe" beliefs could become more normalized in a new and growing society. So maybe 95% of Asari don't care about or perceive various gender pronouns being used on them from other species, but there could be some who care, just like the group of people in the world right now who are on the fringe and are using new pronouns. Those are exactly the type of people to say "Fuck this galaxy, I'm out!" and start anew somewhere else. I found it believable because I pay attention to social issues and the changes in society. The changes in how we say things, what language we use. Maybe you see it is a 12-year-old fan fiction, and that's fine, many others do as well. I don't necessarily think it was brilliant writing. But nothing about it made me go "Whoa, WTF?? Oh man, there's no way that's possible!" It's not lore-breaking. It's just something we haven't seen before. People using new pronouns now isn't "lore-breaking". It's just a change in society. Sure, a small part and it's not "in the lexicon" so I guess these people aren't "canon" to society, but to make the argument that the Asari can't possibly have pronouns for different genders because they themselves lack differentiated genders is just a laughable lack of imaginative thinking. It took me all of 2 seconds to think, when it was posted that they wouldn't have pronouns for different genders, "What if they had pets and wanted to differentiate between male and female pets?" And it's taken your whole degree to come up with the example of the Japanese that don't use gendered pronouns at all. Who cares? Asari are not Japanese. They are their own unique (fictional) thing. So I can say they had multi-gendered pets and used different pronouns for them, and you can't prove that would be impossible or even unlikely. So I continue playing, happy in the fact that I'm imaginative enough to not let something as minor as the probability of different linguistic variations hamper my enjoyment of a video game, because I can come up with sound reasoning for what the writers have done.
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whanzephruseke
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Post by whanzephruseke on Apr 14, 2017 23:36:06 GMT
Funny, innit, how we have some people unhappy that aliens are rubber-masked humans (not alien enough) while others continually anthropomorphize aliens by trying to impose our standards on them. Copying the transcript from o Ventus here for reference (bolding mine): asari: Yes, the gender binary of other races is irrelevant to us.angara: I’ve been using feminine pronouns this entire time. Should I- asari: In my case it’s fine to continue. Thank you for asking, I appreciate it. Some asari prefer male pronouns, while others gravitate toward gender-neutral where language allows. angara: My people have several pronouns to identify themselves with. Perhaps I should prepare a document. asari: Please do. My point is that the entire conversation indicates an assumption MADE BY BOTH ALIEN SPEAKERS that pronouns (specifically) are the main way to linguistically indicate gender, which is not even true in all human languages. I would have had no complaint if they had said "referring to you as female" instead of "using feminine pronouns" and "prefer to be referred to as male" instead of "prefer male pronouns," but the focus on pronouns-as-gender-indicator belies an Anglo-centric mindset on the part of the writers, which is unforgivably lazy, imho. The phrasing employed was clearly cut and pasted from a Tumblr post because the writers didn't want to have to actually consider a current hot-button issue, but didn't want fans to be upset for not mentioning it, so they went with something that pisses off everyone instead, just like with Hainly Abrams.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 23:44:20 GMT
so they went with something that pisses off everyone instead, just like with Hainly Abrams. Neither of which bothered me in the least. Both are minor side content, both entirely missable / skippable, but even if they were main text, I wouldn't have batted an eye. It's a fantastical sci-fi setting.
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Post by whanzephruseke on Apr 15, 2017 0:03:49 GMT
I found it believable because I pay attention to social issues and the changes in society. The changes in how we say things, what language we use. The social issue of pronouns re gender identity is unique to current Anglophonic society. That's not to say that other societies aren't currently experiencing social issues concerning language and gender identity, but the association of asking specifically for someone's "preferred pronouns" with being conscientious of their gender identity does not exist in other current human societies that do not speak English, because the languages spoken in those societies either do not have grammatical gender or have grammatical gender that is more widespread than just pronouns. Is it possible that both the asari and angaran languages are similar to English in this way? Yes, but it was clearly not the intent of the writers to indicate this: they literally did not even comprehend that the connection between pronouns and gender identity is not universal, which I see as Western egotism. On a related note, I wonder how that conversation was localized for non-Anglophonic versions of the game.
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Post by whanzephruseke on Apr 15, 2017 0:10:24 GMT
so they went with something that pisses off everyone instead, just like with Hainly Abrams. Neither of which bothered me in the least. Both are minor side content, both entirely missable / skippable, but even if they were main text, I wouldn't have batted an eye. It's a fantastical sci-fi setting. Then you are an endangered species on the internet as someone who does not have a very vocal opinion on trans issues, and must be preserved, lest your kind perish. *pulls out Mylar bag*
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 0:31:01 GMT
Neither of which bothered me in the least. Both are minor side content, both entirely missable / skippable, but even if they were main text, I wouldn't have batted an eye. It's a fantastical sci-fi setting. Then you are an endangered species on the internet as someone who does not have a very vocal opinion on trans issues, and must be preserved, lest your kind perish. *pulls out Mylar bag* Well... I recognize that I haven't the right to try to tell other people who they're supposed to try to be. But I'm like really old. The young 'uns can fight it out amongst themselves.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 15, 2017 1:16:49 GMT
I found it believable because I pay attention to social issues and the changes in society. The changes in how we say things, what language we use. The social issue of pronouns re gender identity is unique to current Anglophonic society. That's not to say that other societies aren't currently experiencing social issues concerning language and gender identity, but the association of asking specifically for someone's "preferred pronouns" with being conscientious of their gender identity does not exist in other current human societies that do not speak English, because the languages spoken in those societies either do not have grammatical gender or have grammatical gender that is more widespread than just pronouns. Is it possible that both the asari and angaran languages are similar to English in this way? Yes, but it was clearly not the intent of the writers to indicate this: they literally did not even comprehend that the connection between pronouns and gender identity is not universal, which I see as Western egotism. On a related note, I wonder how that conversation was localized for non-Anglophonic versions of the game. I just don't see the point, though. So it's currently unique to Anglophonic society. So? Does that also mean that something similar cannot happen in Asari society? Or certain parts of Asari society? And that they might explain something specific like that to a new alien species? Of course not. Just because it's not happening everywhere on Earth right now doesn't mean that the writers cannot put something like that it there. Just because there's a chance that the Angara don't use pronouns at all or have no gender-specific pronouns or whatever doesn't mean that it cannot be true. Your entire premise seems to be that it is unlikely these things all come together to create a situation where this dialogue happens. Sure, maybe it's unlikely. But that doesn't make it impossible or "lore-breaking" or anything like that. Is it likely I can go out and find 100,000 people who would leave this entire galaxy for something totally new, unproven etc at the peril of their lives? Probably not. But is it possible? Sure as heck is! So arguing that because something is improbable or only something that a certain group is going through right now on Earth does not mean it should be impossible for it to happen to other groups or other fictitious species to go through the same or a similar thing.
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Post by whanzephruseke on Apr 15, 2017 3:34:22 GMT
The social issue of pronouns re gender identity is unique to current Anglophonic society. That's not to say that other societies aren't currently experiencing social issues concerning language and gender identity, but the association of asking specifically for someone's "preferred pronouns" with being conscientious of their gender identity does not exist in other current human societies that do not speak English, because the languages spoken in those societies either do not have grammatical gender or have grammatical gender that is more widespread than just pronouns. Is it possible that both the asari and angaran languages are similar to English in this way? Yes, but it was clearly not the intent of the writers to indicate this: they literally did not even comprehend that the connection between pronouns and gender identity is not universal, which I see as Western egotism. On a related note, I wonder how that conversation was localized for non-Anglophonic versions of the game. I just don't see the point, though. So it's currently unique to Anglophonic society. So? Does that also mean that something similar cannot happen in Asari society? Or certain parts of Asari society? And that they might explain something specific like that to a new alien species? Of course not. Just because it's not happening everywhere on Earth right now doesn't mean that the writers cannot put something like that it there. Just because there's a chance that the Angara don't use pronouns at all or have no gender-specific pronouns or whatever doesn't mean that it cannot be true. Your entire premise seems to be that it is unlikely these things all come together to create a situation where this dialogue happens. Sure, maybe it's unlikely. But that doesn't make it impossible or "lore-breaking" or anything like that. Is it likely I can go out and find 100,000 people who would leave this entire galaxy for something totally new, unproven etc at the peril of their lives? Probably not. But is it possible? Sure as heck is! So arguing that because something is improbable or only something that a certain group is going through right now on Earth does not mean it should be impossible for it to happen to other groups or other fictitious species to go through the same or a similar thing. My point is that either the writers failed to check their cultural bias (unforgivable for professional writers working on a big budget game for international release) OR they actually did intend to make an assertion about asari culture without regard for established lore or logic and without doing any research whatsoever (also unforgivable for professional writers). We as fans deserve better than that.
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Post by Garo on Apr 15, 2017 14:25:20 GMT
I find it comforting than not only I find this preferred pronouns bs really stupid.
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Post by thefool on Apr 16, 2017 10:10:52 GMT
Just on the subject of pronouns, in ME3 there is Athame Codex, one of their earliest religious texts. Liara does say this.
"It describes how Athame's guide, Janiri, gave my people seeds. He taught them the seasons so they could grow crops."
It seems to me that the Asari have had their own analogue to "he" for about 50000 years.
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