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Post by tantumdicverbo on Mar 30, 2017 15:09:29 GMT
Exactly. Asari who identify as 'male' effectively are identifying as non-asari. Next we're going to have asari who call themselves human. Tumblr in space has been a pretty predictable end-point for Bioware's work.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 30, 2017 15:28:59 GMT
On a non asari note:
You know how people were saying that the reason ODSY engines weren't used to colonize the Milky Way was probably because they were too large and unwieldy?
Well, it turns out that according to Kallo, the Tempest itself uses a modified ODSY engine.
So yeah, the AI unless than a decade, managed to not only create these miracle engines, but also managed to miniaturize and slap these miracle engines onto a ship smaller than the Normandy!
And no one thought to use them to explore Milky Way space...
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 30, 2017 15:42:53 GMT
Mistake on my end, it's not a talk with Lexi, it's an ambient conversation that you can overhear. Fortunately a transcript is available: [[transcript since holo-Jien insisted on talking over them: asari: Yes, the gender binary of other races is irrelevant to us. angara: I’ve been using feminine pronouns this entire time. Should I- asari: In my case it’s fine to continue. Thank you for asking, I appreciate it. Some asari prefer male pronouns, while others gravitate toward gender-neutral where language allows. angara: My people have several pronouns to identify themselves with. Perhaps I should prepare a document. asari: Please do.]]
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Post by qwib on Mar 30, 2017 16:22:34 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. You have to replay Mass Effect. Aethyta is Liara's FATHER. Liara always said she didn't know who her FATHER was in ME1 and she knew in ME1 that she was a pureblood. Which means she knew her other parent was an "female" Asari and still called HER FATHER. Asari are confusing, but male terms were used for Asari since ME1.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 30, 2017 16:24:43 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. You have to replay Mass Effect. Aethyta is Liara's FATHER. Liara always said she didn't know who her FATHER was in ME1 and she knew in ME1 that she was a pureblood. Which means she knew her other parent was an "female" Asari and still called HER FATHER. Asari are confusing, but male terms were used for Asari since ME1. I don't think that counts as a male term in that context. It's shorthand for the difference between the asari who gives birth and the one who provides additional genetic information.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 16:29:25 GMT
Aethyta is holding an informal conversation with a human through a universal translator. Her use of "father" could just as easily be the closest analogue that the translator knows, or Aethyta is actually using some word for "father" but it's for the sake of simplicity since no other Milky Way race reproduces like the asari. By your logic "maiden", "matron" etc. could also be simply the closest analogue to asari words. It doesn't necessarily mean that they consider themselves women. And Liara's "male" and "female" don't have any real meaning to us" reads more like asari being gender neutral species and not all-female species wich contradicts me1 codex. So again, i don't see any consistency in here. The Asari are all biologically female, but since they all come in a single biological sex, gender has little cultural meaning for them. Or at least that was the case as of ME1. ME:A made them more like humans in having gender identities, which is a shame. One of the few elements that made them seem alien is now gone. I'm all for representation, but an ambient conversation about trans aliens would have worked better for another species with two biological sexes, like the Turians, than it would with the monogendered Asari.
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 30, 2017 16:31:42 GMT
Meh, all bugs in the universal translator.
And we know that thing is bugged, as it repeatedly refuses to translate 'Keelah selai'
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Post by Ianamus on Mar 30, 2017 16:51:22 GMT
Mass Effect 3 already somewhat contradicted itself on Asari gender when Liara called one of the ancient Asari gods, a messenger from Athame, "he".
If their ancient and predominant religion had male figures, presumably based on the protheans who uplifted them, they should always have had a concept of gender.
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Post by jennica on Mar 30, 2017 16:53:39 GMT
By your logic "maiden", "matron" etc. could also be simply the closest analogue to asari words. It doesn't necessarily mean that they consider themselves women. And Liara's "male" and "female" don't have any real meaning to us" reads more like asari being gender neutral species and not all-female species wich contradicts me1 codex. So again, i don't see any consistency in here. The Asari are all biologically female, but since they all come in a single biological sex, gender has little cultural meaning for them. Or at least that was the case as of ME1. ME:A made them more like humans in having gender identities, which is a shame. One of the few elements that made them seem alien is now gone. I'm all for representation, but an ambient conversation about trans aliens would have worked better for another species with two biological sexes, like the Turians, than it would with the monogendered Asari. My point is that they may be all female species from our point of view. I mean, asari should have very different ideas about gender than humans/turians etc. do, so they may be using female, male and gender neutral pronounces not in the same way than we do. Just like for them being a father is not the same as for us. So while i agree that it's a retcon there is still could be a logical explanation. The whole "We are women because we have boobs are able to give birth to children" is not unique or alien, lol.
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Post by SilJeff on Mar 30, 2017 17:17:43 GMT
What's this about a male Asari?? I haven't exactly done much in ME:A outside the main quest but I haven't heard anything about a male asari yet. Where is it mentioned?
I mean, WTF? It makes no sense
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 30, 2017 17:44:00 GMT
On a non asari note: You know how people were saying that the reason ODSY engines weren't used to colonize the Milky Way was probably because they were too large and unwieldy? Well, it turns out that according to Kallo, the Tempest itself uses a modified ODSY engine. So yeah, the AI unless than a decade, managed to not only create these miracle engines, but also managed to miniaturize and slap these miracle engines onto a ship smaller than the Normandy! And no one thought to use them to explore Milky Way space... This is honestly my primary gripe with the premise of Andromeda. Why go to an entirely new galaxy when less than 1% of the Milky Way hasn't been explored? I mean, I know *why*, it was to avoid mentioning the endings, but unless Bioware is creatively sterile (given the sequel hooking in Andromeda, this may not be an unfair judgement), they could still just as easily have made a new game set in the Milky Way.
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 30, 2017 17:45:09 GMT
What's this about a male Asari?? I haven't exactly done much in ME:A outside the main quest but I haven't heard anything about a male asari yet. Where is it mentioned? I mean, WTF? It makes no sense Ambient conversation on the Nexus reveals that there are asari who identify as male, even though it makes zero sense.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 30, 2017 18:04:14 GMT
I mean, I know *why*, it was to avoid mentioning the endings, but unless Bioware is creatively sterile (given the sequel hooking in Andromeda, this may not be an unfair judgement), they could still just as easily have made a new game set in the Milky Way. Actually they couldn't. If it had just been control and destroy, maybe. But they can't incorporate synthesis (which is what they wanted from the start anyway) and setting canon would be ten times worse than the stupidest bullshit they could come up with in Andromeda. This was the only way they could acceptably go "forward". And it could've made sense. Speaking of, did it? People who've played the game, was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Mark spoilers if need be.
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 30, 2017 18:12:58 GMT
I mean, I know *why*, it was to avoid mentioning the endings, but unless Bioware is creatively sterile (given the sequel hooking in Andromeda, this may not be an unfair judgement), they could still just as easily have made a new game set in the Milky Way. Actually they couldn't. If it had just been control and destroy, maybe. But they can't incorporate synthesis (which is what they wanted from the start anyway) and setting canon would be ten times worse than the stupidest bullshit they could come up with in Andromeda. This was the only way they could acceptably go "forward". And it could've made sense. Speaking of, did it? People who've played the game, was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Mark spoilers if need be. Nobody said it would have to be a direct sequel. In fact, didn't they say that Andromeda wasn't a direct sequel to the trilogy?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 18:30:57 GMT
By your logic "maiden", "matron" etc. could also be simply the closest analogue to asari words. It doesn't necessarily mean that they consider themselves women. And Liara's "male" and "female" don't have any real meaning to us" reads more like asari being gender neutral species and not all-female species wich contradicts me1 codex. So again, i don't see any consistency in here. The Asari are all biologically female, but since they all come in a single biological sex, gender has little cultural meaning for them. Or at least that was the case as of ME1. ME:A made them more like humans in having gender identities, which is a shame. One of the few elements that made them seem alien is now gone. I'm all for representation, but an ambient conversation about trans aliens would have worked better for another species with two biological sexes, like the Turians, than it would with the monogendered Asari. I'm not entirely sure this new material strictly indicates that asari suddenly have gender identities. Other species assigned female pronouns to them, for obvious reasons - but I don't remember ever seeing any indication that they all accepted that categorization. It occurs to me that the revelation that some of them prefer male or gender neutral references might instead mean that they are rejecting the entire concept of gender categorization / identity, rather than embracing... something else.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 30, 2017 18:48:28 GMT
Nobody said it would have to be a direct sequel. In fact, didn't they say that Andromeda wasn't a direct sequel to the trilogy? Doesn't matter. A post synthesis civilization would be virtually unrecognizable within decades, if not years. Setting it 600 years in the future in the Milky Way would make it worse, not better. Plus if you're making it that different/in the future that everything's different, why make it a Mass Effect game at all? Andromeda neatly sidesteps both the time and place problems via the new galaxy and stasis. Though even without knowing the details it looks like there's quite a bit of squadering of this opportunity.
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 30, 2017 19:02:06 GMT
Nobody said it would have to be a direct sequel. In fact, didn't they say that Andromeda wasn't a direct sequel to the trilogy? Doesn't matter. A post synthesis civilization would be virtually unrecognizable within decades, if not years. Setting it 600 years in the future in the Milky Way would make it worse, not better. Plus if you're making it that different/in the future that everything's different, why make it a Mass Effect game at all? Andromeda neatly sidesteps both the time and place problems via the new galaxy and stasis. Though even without knowing the details it looks like there's quite a bit of squadering of this opportunity. Prequel? Concurrent side-quel?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 30, 2017 19:06:20 GMT
Prequel? Concurrent side-quel? Would've loved either. But so many were screeching against it I didn't think it likely.
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Post by arreyanne on Mar 30, 2017 19:47:42 GMT
What I would have rather had, First Contact Wars with Anderson
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Post by Ahriman on Mar 30, 2017 19:57:57 GMT
I mean, I know *why*, it was to avoid mentioning the endings, but unless Bioware is creatively sterile (given the sequel hooking in Andromeda, this may not be an unfair judgement), they could still just as easily have made a new game set in the Milky Way. Speaking of, did it? People who've played the game, was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Mark spoilers if need be. >was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Initial reason wasn't, but it never got enough funding, until one day when it was overflowed with money from unknown Benefactor. Benefactor wasn't talkatative about his/her goals, but Alec learns about Reapers eventually. >Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? Not a single mention of Reaper tech or Sovy in particular. So supposedly not. >And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Some characters mention lack of mounted weapons from time to time, but put it as a matter of a fact, not as something they don't approve.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 30, 2017 20:09:35 GMT
Speaking of, did it? People who've played the game, was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Mark spoilers if need be. >was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Initial reason wasn't, but it never got enough funding, until one day when it was overflowed with money from unknown Benefactor. Benefactor wasn't talkatative about his/her goals, but Alec learns about Reapers eventually. >Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? Not a single mention of Reaper tech or Sovy in particular. So supposedly not. >And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Some characters mention lack of mounted weapons from time to time, but put it as a matter of a fact, not as something they don't approve.
Figures. -Do we know who the "benefactor" is? Is it Cerberus? This is... barely tolerable. I mean you'd really need to make it clear the founders are eccentric weirdos if you're going with the "mysterious benefactor piggybacks as Reaper escape plan" thing. It's really thin though. Like monomolecular thin. -Do we have full technical readouts/background on the drives? Did said mysterious benefactor provide tech they never bothered to question where it came from? This I would believe, it's standard ME complacency syndrome. -Idiots. The lot of them. Absolute idiots. Well, it could've made sense at least. That much remains true.
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Post by Ahriman on Mar 30, 2017 20:35:21 GMT
>was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Initial reason wasn't, but it never got enough funding, until one day when it was overflowed with money from unknown Benefactor. Benefactor wasn't talkatative about his/her goals, but Alec learns about Reapers eventually. >Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? Not a single mention of Reaper tech or Sovy in particular. So supposedly not. >And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Some characters mention lack of mounted weapons from time to time, but put it as a matter of a fact, not as something they don't approve.
Figures. -Do we know who the "benefactor" is? Is it Cerberus? This is... barely tolerable. I mean you'd really need to make it clear the founders are eccentric weirdos if you're going with the "mysterious benefactor piggybacks as Reaper escape plan" thing. It's really thin though. Like monomolecular thin. -Do we have full technical readouts/background on the drives? Did said mysterious benefactor provide tech they never bothered to question where it came from? This I would believe, it's standard ME complacency syndrome. -Idiots. The lot of them. Absolute idiots. Well, it could've made sense at least. That much remains true. - Uknown as I said. Related quest ends with cliffhanger, but the whole thing portrayed as shady as possible in contrast with adventurous idiocracy of regular colonists. - Not really. Tech talk is at minimum here regarding everything, except maybe bits about remnant tech.
- Can't be helped. At least one weapon description mentions possible application as ship weapon, so someone in AI still thinks about the issue.
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Post by qwib on Mar 31, 2017 4:38:36 GMT
You have to replay Mass Effect. Aethyta is Liara's FATHER. Liara always said she didn't know who her FATHER was in ME1 and she knew in ME1 that she was a pureblood. Which means she knew her other parent was an "female" Asari and still called HER FATHER. Asari are confusing, but male terms were used for Asari since ME1. I don't think that counts as a male term in that context. It's shorthand for the difference between the asari who gives birth and the one who provides additional genetic information. Would you call a lesbian mom a father IRL? That's your answer. No one would. Human females and Asari do not provide additonal genetic information. That's not how the reproduction of those species work in the Real World nor how it works in the game. The species on earth who are all female, basically clone themselves, BW just added the randomization of genes with the "father" so there is at least a puprose for Asari to make out with other species.
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Post by lexxbomb on Mar 31, 2017 5:02:14 GMT
Speaking of, did it? People who've played the game, was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Mark spoilers if need be. >was the real reason for leaving the Reapers? Initial reason wasn't, but it never got enough funding, until one day when it was overflowed with money from unknown Benefactor. Benefactor wasn't talkatative about his/her goals, but Alec learns about Reapers eventually. >Were parts of Sovereign used in construction of the arks? Not a single mention of Reaper tech or Sovy in particular. So supposedly not. >And while we're at it, can you finally call them out on the lack of mounted weapons? Some characters mention lack of mounted weapons from time to time, but put it as a matter of a fact, not as something they don't approve.
Well the lack of external weapons is kinda explained by the fact the Arks are basically "Air Craft" Carrier type vessels...note the explicit use of Terran fighters in the final mission. So essentially their combat doctrine is use of small pin point strikes vs Flak/Mass driver cannons. Makes sense for an exploration fleet. Still they need some sort of frigate/destroyers for escort hence the Remnant Fleet Ryder awakens.
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Post by shermos on Mar 31, 2017 5:05:08 GMT
It's like I said in an earlier post. Bioware doesn't care about their own lore anymore. Everyone who does has left the company. People will try to make excuses for it or give handwavy explanations from the game, but the downward spiral will probably only continue from here. As far as Asari T-girls go, I don't like it when I agree with the anti "SJW" crowd, but they have a point unfortunately. Bioware is shoving its ideology down people's throats while not walking their own talk: This video has been posted on these boards before, but it's relevant here. It wouldn't have been a problem if a new race was introduced to explore transgender issues so long as it was done with some degree of subtlety. You do know Liana is not anti Social Justice? Yes, of course. But she's not an extremist, and often disagrees with the likes of Anita Sarkeesian. She also takes the time to consider to views of the average gamer. The issue she rightly brings up here is that Bioware is propagandising its agenda while not walking its talk. Screwing with the Asari lore is another example. And as I said, transgender issues could be better explored by bringing in a new race. Or one of the human characters could be transgender.
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