Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2017 15:57:13 GMT
I love how normalized inconsistency and retconning has become for this brand. "Mac Walters lives and breathes Mass Effect like it's nobody's business" - John Dombrow I agree, John. He truly, truly does. He's defined its identity in a sense. I very much doubt that Mac Walters came up with the male asari stuff. He's the Creative Director. IF he didn't come up with hit, he certainly approved it.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 31, 2017 15:58:25 GMT
Too bad I only like dark chocolate and I prefer it without cream or any other surprises inside. I guess people that like all kinds of chocolates are the "real" fans Yep, if you accept anything no matter how stupid, contrived or disappointing it is just becuase the box says "Mass Effect" you're a true fan. But for the record to peeps, while i sound bitchy and moany I used to be an unabashed, gushing fanboy until ME3.
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Bann Duncan
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 31, 2017 16:09:19 GMT
I very much doubt that Mac Walters came up with the male asari stuff. He's the Creative Director. IF he didn't come up with hit, he certainly approved it. I imagine so... but also given that I've worked in large creative departments, I would imagine approvals of ambient dialogue would be a really low-priority thing.
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qwib
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I am Pathfinder rah bah bah
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Post by qwib on Mar 31, 2017 16:11:33 GMT
Yes we agree. My point is Asari were always very badly written. I don't get that it is suddenly a problem. It was always a problem. Calling an asari he suddenly isn't the issue. The issue is that a mono gendered species should have never used any kind of human terms or pronounces. It's not an andromeda problem when the trilogy already failed. God I hate Asari discussions. Lol This is basically my point. When it was universal feminine terms, you could just interpret it as the translators making a uniform translation for 'asari'. (Would have been the same thing if they were exclusively referred to with male pronouns.) When you now have asari who prefer female, male, or neutral terms depending on the specific asari, you're explicitly introducing gender. That is correct. The had the one chance to explain everything with a simple "doesn't matter if you call us he or she, we only get one translation anyway in our language." BAM DONE. But no they had to make Asari even more complicated and confusing. The best path is to ignore any further explenation.
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Bann Duncan
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Post by Bann Duncan on Mar 31, 2017 16:39:08 GMT
This is basically my point. When it was universal feminine terms, you could just interpret it as the translators making a uniform translation for 'asari'. (Would have been the same thing if they were exclusively referred to with male pronouns.) When you now have asari who prefer female, male, or neutral terms depending on the specific asari, you're explicitly introducing gender. That is correct. The had the one chance to explain everything with a simple "doesn't matter if you call us he or she, we only get one translation anyway in our language." BAM DONE. But no they had to make Asari even more complicated and confusing. The best path is to ignore any further explenation. The part that really gets to me is the straight out of tumblr language of: "Thank you for asking, I appreciate it. " So apparently one is canonically supposed to ask an asari for gender pronouns before talking.
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Shaftell
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Post by Shaftell on Mar 31, 2017 16:44:11 GMT
What do you guys mean when you say Tumblr crowd, Tumblr language and all that stuff.
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LilTIM
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Post by LilTIM on Mar 31, 2017 17:06:42 GMT
This is just the lgtb lobby inside bioware forcing the devs to insert their stuff in the game, it's best to just pretend it doesn't exist, much like some pop culture references or references to other games. If you take it as is, it will ruin your immersion.
Instead learn to block the small tidbits of idiocy that by peer pressure get into it. They have no in-game reason to exist, so ignore them.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 31, 2017 17:08:40 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. Maybe it's because you're an anthropocentric dick that you feel like that?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 17:11:15 GMT
What do you guys mean when you say Tumblr crowd, Tumblr language and all that stuff. It's what some people say when confronted with something that doesn't conform to their narrow political viewpoint.
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Post by griffith82 on Mar 31, 2017 17:14:34 GMT
What do you guys mean when you say Tumblr crowd, Tumblr language and all that stuff. It's what some people say when confronted with something that doesn't conform to their narrow political viewpoint. At this point it is pointless to debate the Asari thing. One group doesn't mind one does this bickering won't change anything.
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Turian Werewolf
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Post by Turian Werewolf on Mar 31, 2017 17:19:09 GMT
What if the ambient conversation in question is from some rogue SJW asari who wants to upend her species' biology?
I'll pretend that's the case and leave it there.
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CTPhipps
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Post by CTPhipps on Mar 31, 2017 17:35:10 GMT
I think if they ever do return to the Milky Way, they should steal from Deus Ex again and state something like:
"The Catalyst destroyed the majority of the Reapers and reprogrammed others to serve humankind. It also released a kind of pulse which caused the Husks to return to their original races, only upgraded considerably as cyborgs. There's a large population of them in the galaxy now."
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 31, 2017 18:13:47 GMT
As the title says, what are some retcons or outright contradictions that you noticed in this game, compared to the numbered trilogy and expanded universe? They can be small and minute and not-all-that-important, or major and lore-breaking. For me, the one that stuck out is how the asari now have male terms and pronouns for themselves, despite being an all-female species with a language that has, up to this point, only had female signifiers, e.g. the stages of life of an asari are "maiden", "matron", and "matriarch", and asari children always being referred to as daughters. Introducing a male dynamic completely does away with what makes the asari interesting, that they are a monogendered species with a culture that reflects that. Aria in Mass Effect 2 even mentions that the reason she named Patriarch "Patriarch" is because the asari don't have a proper term for a male leader, because there are no male asari. Aria is in essence saying that Patriarch, as the previous leader of Omega before her, is nothing, he may as well not exist, he's so irrelevant. Nothing about the asari beforehand supported the notion that they would even have any concept of males in their own culture, and Andromeda mentioning that there are now, for lack of a better term, transgender asari, just comes off as progressive pandering for good boy points. Maybe it's because you're an anthropocentric dick that you feel like that? What?
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CTPhipps
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Post by CTPhipps on Mar 31, 2017 18:22:07 GMT
I think like 90% of the issues here with the Asari seem to be:
1. Fans having ideas about the Asari not supported by the game.
2. In-universe, humans have a really shitty time understanding how Asari gender works.
But yes, so far we've established:
* Asari don't think of themselves as women * Everyone else in the galaxy thinks of them as women * There's a social role for the "father" in a relatonship * Humans on Earth would call both of them mothers but Asari don't believe in that. * Asari get really damn tired of explaining this.
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SwobyJ
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 1, 2017 7:02:11 GMT
I think like 90% of the issues here with the Asari seem to be: 1. Fans having ideas about the Asari not supported by the game. 2. In-universe, humans have a really shitty time understanding how Asari gender works. But yes, so far we've established: * Asari don't think of themselves as women * Everyone else in the galaxy thinks of them as women * There's a social role for the "father" in a relatonship * Humans on Earth would call both of them mothers but Asari don't believe in that. * Asari get really damn tired of explaining this. QFT
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lastpawn
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Post by lastpawn on Apr 1, 2017 7:23:10 GMT
That is correct. The had the one chance to explain everything with a simple "doesn't matter if you call us he or she, we only get one translation anyway in our language." BAM DONE. But no they had to make Asari even more complicated and confusing. The best path is to ignore any further explenation. The part that really gets to me is the straight out of tumblr language of: "Thank you for asking, I appreciate it. " So apparently one is canonically supposed to ask an asari for gender pronouns before talking. This is sort of the issue, isn't it? I think it's totally fine if this is the direction that Bioware wants to take Asari in, but there are better and worse way of going about it. This is a worse way of going about it. Putting contemporary politics into a game set in future, and especially putting these words into an alien species, is just so... off. Like the transgendered women who immediately tells you she's transgendered. I mean, hundreds of years in the future this will presumably just be a matter of course, right? Why are they drawing on contemporary events to depict something set hundreds of years from now?
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Post by Pounce de León on Apr 1, 2017 7:50:12 GMT
Maybe it's because you're an anthropocentric dick that you feel like that? What? You didn't recognize the quote? It's Liara's "dad" barkeeping on the Citadel. Basically: You perceive male and female roles because they are human concepts.
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fatherjerusalem
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I used to think that I was cynical and a pessimist. Then I found the BSN.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: fatherjerusalem
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Post by fatherjerusalem on Apr 1, 2017 7:50:59 GMT
What do you guys mean when you say Tumblr crowd, Tumblr language and all that stuff. They mean "anything that isn't a straight white man confuses and scares us and has no place in society", basically.
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Plague Doctor
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
PSN: PlagueDoctorD
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Post by Plague Doctor on Apr 1, 2017 8:04:24 GMT
Im actually baffled. At the end of ME1 i thought :
" So, there really arent any Asari that identify as male? Thats unrealistic, how long have they been in contact with bi-gendered species now? Also, i really expected to read about masses of humans who shave their heads and paint themselves blue, or wear volus-looking suits, or metal turian like masks, and the same for other species in regards to each other. That would most certainly be a thing IRL. Well, i guess they exist and just arent mentioned."
And now it gets confirmed and people find THAT unrealistic? Really? Smh.
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Post by Pearl on Apr 1, 2017 8:36:40 GMT
Not sure if this quite fits here as it's a bug, but if you play as a female Ryder, Lexi constantly refers to you as a male in the psychological profile updates.
Also, the male Asari thing is stupid. If this topic is important enough in Asari society that it gets mentioned multiple times in Andromeda, why is it never mentioned anywhere in the original trilogy?
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Post by argentus on Apr 2, 2017 1:12:54 GMT
I can get behind the Asari Male thing. PeeBee is a tomboy and I like her for that. I like to think their interactions with humans and other species has slowly created new norms for them. Problem being these are the Mass effect 1 Asari. Putting aside humans have only been in contact for like 20 years at that point, and to Asari that's but a fleeting moment, not enough time to adopt their customs, but if that were the case we would have seen some of that going on by ME2 and ME3.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 2, 2017 2:20:40 GMT
What do you guys mean when you say Tumblr crowd, Tumblr language and all that stuff. Tumblr is notorious for being where the most amount of feminist and LGBTQ-justice posters go and in equal measure that crowd of fandoms so you'll often see fan-art that depict your favorite characters in sexually pandering poses and stuff... I think. I remember David Gaider joined Tumblr a year or two ago and posted about it on Twitter. He didn't last longer than 3 weeks before shutting his account down because it was so toxic.
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Post by SofNascimento on Apr 2, 2017 2:28:50 GMT
I wonder, do anyone in the game ever mention that we had only explored 1% of the milk way? And that 99% of the galaxy would be as new as Andromeda?
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Silent Sister
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Post by Silent Sister on Apr 2, 2017 4:34:05 GMT
Asari have been growing up around species with multiple genders for over a thousand years. It makes perfect sense that they would see that as the norm. Some probably identify more with the masculinity of other species and others may identify more with femininity. Most Asari probably identify with neither, but go with the feminine pronouns to make the other species more comfortable.
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Dean The Not-so Young
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 2, 2017 12:00:36 GMT
What if the ambient conversation in question is from some rogue SJW asari who wants to upend her species' biology? I'll pretend that's the case and leave it there. It's not like humans ever invent additional genders or identities to make themselves feel special from the rest, right?
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