Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 14, 2017 2:08:32 GMT
Logic really has no place in any Bioware game, to be fair. Immortal robot space squids with mind control powers that kill you to stop you making immortal robots that maybe might kill you if they ever tried. Deserves the meme.
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Post by adelthorne on Apr 14, 2017 2:24:02 GMT
When I finished the ME3, I always wondered, what would have happen to all the people surviving the last battle since the Massrelays was destroyed. Did all of them settle around earth system, or did the build new relays, and how long time would it take for one ship to reach to the receiving end of the the relay and build a new one? Would have been a great game to rebuild the Milkyway. But apparently there was extremely good engines back then so no relays was needed.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 2:53:47 GMT
Well, even with an ODSY drive, travel time to distant clusters would be measured in years or decades. No way you're carrying on interstellar commerce that way, except for high-value stuff that can't be produced locally. Exotic spices, perhaps?
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Dean The Not-so Young
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 14, 2017 3:52:02 GMT
My biggest issues with the Nexus were: - Why were there no Pathfinders on the Nexus. You would think they would want them to arrive and get to work first before the Arks arrived. This is relatively simple. Aside from any arbitrary restrictions on how many SAM AI they wanted, the answer is because the Nexus was supposed to be neutral, and the Arcs were supposed to arrive concurrently. There's a one-pathfinder-per-Arc designation because the Arcs are- by and large- supposed to represent the 'one race one polity' rule that the Milky Way galaxy is based around. The Human Pathfinder scouts for Human colonies and Human interests. The Salarian arc for Salarian interests. Etc. The Nexus, however, is supposed to be neutral- and so having a pathfinder who will be presumed to reflect the interests of their races like the rest would create imbalance. Secondly, the arrivals were intended to be concurrent, conditions in the Milky Way permitting. There's only limited utility in having the scouting functions of the Pathfinder setup duplicated on a ship that wouldn't really have a need for them. If the Nexus does everything the Arcs do, it largely eliminates the need for Arcs- even as the Initiative, from the start, was supposed to be cooperative and self-reinforcing. The Nexus does provides resources to the Arks- just not power. And the Nexus has enough power to operate without them, even if it's just rationed. The areas that the Nexus that aren't self-sustaining in- food and raw materials- are also the areas that the Nexus wouldn't have had a real problem with if the Scourge hadn't fucked with everything.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 14, 2017 4:13:16 GMT
The Crucible and the Lazarus Project are particularly egregious crimes against logic. So saying the Nexus is no worse than that...let's just say it doesn't help the Nexus' case, is all. True. And that means the entire foundation of ME2 and ME3 are also based on nonsensical concepts. Even the whole race to the conduit in ME1 is illogical given Saren could have just walked straight on to the citadel. My point is MEA is still a good and fun game just as all the above are fun games (even ME2 which I'm usually vocal about disliking) despite being based on an extremely shaky foundation. Yes its a contrived reboot to get around the conclusion of the OT, but somehow the game is still as solid, plausible and acceptable as any of the original trilogy. Ok, first off, is your profile pic from the "Martin the Warrior/Redwall" series? Because if it is that's...FREAKING AWESOME! Secondly, didn't you know that the number one rule of Mass Effect is that the Original Trilogy is gospel and we must follow every small detail of the lore, except the stupid stuff which we don't like. That stuff doesn't count for...reasons. Good reasons, I assure you! I'm with you, man. I don't see any reason the AI can't exist within the lore of the OT, but others will always disagree in their quest to find everything wrong with the game.
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Post by alihou on Apr 14, 2017 4:20:05 GMT
The ODSY drive doesn't make a whole of sense even with their pseudo science explanation. I'd like to see if anyone can make sense of that to me.
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Post by Sailears on Apr 14, 2017 7:33:31 GMT
True. And that means the entire foundation of ME2 and ME3 are also based on nonsensical concepts. Even the whole race to the conduit in ME1 is illogical given Saren could have just walked straight on to the citadel. My point is MEA is still a good and fun game just as all the above are fun games (even ME2 which I'm usually vocal about disliking) despite being based on an extremely shaky foundation. Yes its a contrived reboot to get around the conclusion of the OT, but somehow the game is still as solid, plausible and acceptable as any of the original trilogy. I'm pretty sure Saren needed to figure out how the Citadel relay had been sabotaged before he could undo it. As for Lazarus, I agree it was stupid and totally unnecessary, but most of the rest of the game was good enough for me to forgive that. The problem with MEA is that it has so many crimes against logic and basic science, while not being a very fun game, and also lacking compelling characters (aside from Drack maybe). Not to mention all the frustrating bugs on release. Previous Bioware games had problems for sure, but they really dropped the ball with this one. Fair point with ME1 - it definitely has the most coherent story of all the mass effect games. Though personally I feel the main plot of ME2, it's conclusion and all the daddy issues in between far outweigh any if the issues I have with MEA. I even find the core plot points regarding the reapers more difficult to stomach in ME3 than anything in MEA. Its subjective but I enjoy MEA far more than 3 and significantly more than 2 (I really didn't like 2 apart from the combat/music and a couple of characters).
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Post by Sailears on Apr 14, 2017 7:36:53 GMT
True. And that means the entire foundation of ME2 and ME3 are also based on nonsensical concepts. Even the whole race to the conduit in ME1 is illogical given Saren could have just walked straight on to the citadel. My point is MEA is still a good and fun game just as all the above are fun games (even ME2 which I'm usually vocal about disliking) despite being based on an extremely shaky foundation. Yes its a contrived reboot to get around the conclusion of the OT, but somehow the game is still as solid, plausible and acceptable as any of the original trilogy. Ok, first off, is your profile pic from the "Martin the Warrior/Redwall" series? Because if it is that's...FREAKING AWESOME! Secondly, didn't you know that the number one rule of Mass Effect is that the Original Trilogy is gospel and we must follow every small detail of the lore, except the stupid stuff which we don't like. That stuff doesn't count for...reasons. Good reasons, I assure you! I'm with you, man. I don't see any reason the AI can't exist within the lore of the OT, but others will always disagree in their quest to find everything wrong with the game. Yes its Finbarr Galedeep, Mariel and Dandin on the cover of The Bellmaker. I'm a huge Redwall fan even as an adult and have every book signed in hardback.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 14, 2017 10:33:32 GMT
My biggest issues with the Nexus were: - Why were there no Pathfinders on the Nexus. You would think they would want them to arrive and get to work first before the Arks arrived. This is relatively simple. Aside from any arbitrary restrictions on how many SAM AI they wanted, the answer is because the Nexus was supposed to be neutral, and the Arcs were supposed to arrive concurrently. There's a one-pathfinder-per-Arc designation because the Arcs are- by and large- supposed to represent the 'one race one polity' rule that the Milky Way galaxy is based around. The Human Pathfinder scouts for Human colonies and Human interests. The Salarian arc for Salarian interests. Etc. The Nexus, however, is supposed to be neutral- and so having a pathfinder who will be presumed to reflect the interests of their races like the rest would create imbalance. Secondly, the arrivals were intended to be concurrent, conditions in the Milky Way permitting. There's only limited utility in having the scouting functions of the Pathfinder setup duplicated on a ship that wouldn't really have a need for them. If the Nexus does everything the Arcs do, it largely eliminates the need for Arcs- even as the Initiative, from the start, was supposed to be cooperative and self-reinforcing. The Nexus does provides resources to the Arks- just not power. And the Nexus has enough power to operate without them, even if it's just rationed. The areas that the Nexus that aren't self-sustaining in- food and raw materials- are also the areas that the Nexus wouldn't have had a real problem with if the Scourge hadn't fucked with everything. That's my entire point. Every vessel going to Andromeda should have had Pathfinders and mixed cryo pods in case it was the only vessel to make, because things can and did go wrong. The human ark could have been the only Ark to make unscathed to Andromeda, especially if the scourge had really destroyed the Nexus. There would have been no other races in Andromeda. But in Hyperion would have had mixed race cypo pods, which they all should have had, all races still would be represented in Andromeda. Having ships with all eggs in one basket makes no sense whatsoever.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 14, 2017 17:01:19 GMT
That's my entire point. Every vessel going to Andromeda should have had Pathfinders and mixed cryo pods in case it was the only vessel to make, because things can and did go wrong. The human ark could have been the only Ark to make unscathed to Andromeda, especially if the scourge had really destroyed the Nexus. There would have been no other races in Andromeda. But in Hyperion would have had mixed race cypo pods, which they all should have had, all races still would be represented in Andromeda. Having ships with all eggs in one basket makes no sense whatsoever. All eggs weren't in one basket. All eggs (Pathfinders, as we we talking about) were evenly distributed across the same number of baskets in the name of both redundancy and political fairness, which was an important implicit requirement for everyone involved to agree to be involved in the first place. The Andromeda Initiative had to be a multi-racial effort to set up an entirely new administration, but no species was going to pay for the privilege of having only one pathfinder if some other race was going to get two. The racial and societal politics of the origin setting are what determine what sort of Initiative-founding agreements were possible, but every Arc being mixed-race for maximum racial survival wouldn't have been politically feasible. If all Arks were mix-species, the Arks wouldn't have gotten the funding and support to be built, because the Milky Way societies building them are xeno-nationalist. The believe in a properness of one species, one polity, and that was their intent of how to organize the Andromeda Colonization effort. Even aside from the technical reasons to want to keep mixed-raced Arcs to a minimum (costs and difficulty per vessel go up the more races/species that must be supported), the political underpinnings are something that must be planned for, not simply blamed as a lack of planning. The Initiative had five-fold redundancy for Pathfinders as it was. The Pathfinders wouldn't have even been crucial had it not been for the Scourage, which was a phenomenum completely unknown as even a possiblity within the realm of physics (and thus can not be planned for). The Pathfinders are largely irrelevant in case of a hostile aliens after first contact, because if the Initiative arrives in Andromeda to any kind of established, hostile space-faring alien species of roughly equivalent level, it's screwed anyway. If all five Arcs are destroyed by wonky changes to the understanding of physics and/or hostile species, the Initiative colonization effort has problems beyond what one more Pathfinder might reasonably resolve. Which brings back to the point of the Nexus itself. The Nexus itself is not the colonization effort, and was never intended to be. The Nexus was intended to be the capital-heavy colonization facilitator of pre-fabs, equipment, and politics. The population it a backup for if the Arcs don't make it, a sort of continency to avoid extinction by Arc loss, but it's primary purpose isn't colonization- it's to be a skeleton crew to oversee a pre-positioned stockpile and staging grounds. Which is a pretty common logistics technique for any given effort- you don't send equipment and people evenly mixed in all respects, because it's easier and more effective to organize equipment otherwise. Each Arc had things to start with in case the Nexus didn't make it. Tehy aren't dependent on it. The Nexus is just a pre-positioned stockpile to help the colonization go faster overall, no matter who arrives... and who doesn't. That's a lot of resources which every Initiative species had to buy into, and the leadership overseeing the allocation of those resources needs to be trusted to be as politically neutral as possible for the races involved. That's going to be undercut if the arrogant Asari/shifty salarians/imperialistic Turians/ambitious humans and their second pathfinder gets extra influence in allocating the lion's share of resources from the Milky Way. That's a political compromise. It's also really good planning, because without that sort of political compromising and public trust the Initiative not only falls apart- it never starts in the first place. Human/turian/salarian backers in the Milky Way aren't paying for their descendants to be privileged vassals to Asari Andromeda. It makes sense to make a compromise for political stability and existential viability... especially when the compromise doesn't compromise all that much if the Arcs don't make it for mundane technical issues. If the Nexus arrives and finds contact with local aliens, the political leadership of the Initiative is on-hand to open negotiations. -If the aliens aren't willing to negotiate and go to war, a Pathfinder is pretty much irrelevant. The Initiative doesn't have the means to carry and conduct war. If the Nexus arrives and the Arcs don't, the Nexus has breeding populations and the means to start basic colonization efforts on its own. -Said colonization efforts only require Pathfinder assistance on exceptionally difficult terrain... which the Nexus wouldn't have been stuck working with had it not been for the Scourge damaging both equipment and worlds. The issue of the Nexus isn't the lack of a Pathfinder being brought along in case the Arcs don't make it- there's real and valid reasons not to, and it wouldn't have mattered in most plannable situations anyway. It's the things by which their nature can't be planned for- like the Scourge, which broke Milky Way understanding of physics- and lambasting the planners for not having a Pathfinder handy to deal with that is about as compelling as lambasting them for not having ginger stockpiles to pacify space-Cthulu in the next sector.
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Post by joglee on Apr 14, 2017 17:22:51 GMT
This is the entire story arc of ME1-3.
We created giant mind controlling synthetic squids, to wipe out civilizations who may make other synthetic beings who may wipe out civilizations, to protect those civilizations from being wiped out by their synthetic creations, by wiping out those civilizations.
Either way, you die by synthetic AIs.
Yet somehow people praise that story arc as one of the best in video game history.
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Post by kubark on Apr 14, 2017 17:30:55 GMT
Did they ever explain why the Hyperion arrived a year after the nexus? I mean they all left at the same time right?
I assume it's something to do with the data pad you can read when you first wake up which refers to course corrections? Went slightly off course and the correction took the extra time?
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Post by sincro on Apr 14, 2017 17:52:41 GMT
A FTL journey of 600+ years could easily see minor corrections in course altering the total travel time by up to 1%. Which means, in my opinion, everyone arriving within a year or so of each other is pretty amazing.
Reading the posts about why not have mixed race arcs and no pathfinders on the Nexus got me to wondering. Surely I am not the first to notice that there are *five* Milky Way races in Andromeda, but only 4 pathfinders. Why no Krogan Pathfinder? Clearly Bioware has gone to great lengths to not make every single krogan a semi-intelligent bloodthirsty brute, and there had to be a krogan or two who would have fit the parameters required for a pathfinder.
Not sure how it would have gone over to have a Krogan pathfinder on the Nexus, tho.
As for mixed race Arks, the problem is the turians, since they have the different amino acid thing going on. You would need two separate food stocks on each Ark if they were aboard, and any benefit to having mixed race Arks was probably outweighed by the cost to have that sort of redundancy on each one. Plus, each Ark can have only one captain (by definition) and not certain if the Milky Way races are quite enlightened enough to have say a human captain in charge of 15k non-humans, or a turian in charge of 15k non-turians, etc etc.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 19:17:48 GMT
The ODSY drive doesn't make a whole of sense even with their pseudo science explanation. I'd like to see if anyone can make sense of that to me. Which part? Drive charge is known to be a soluble problem. Intergalactic hydrogen for fuel is known to exist (although there is some debate about the density IIRC.) As for why the drives aren't in common use, well, first, they're new. Second, we don't have any figures on cost and size, so they could easily be impractical for normal use in the MEU. And if an experimental ODSY-drive dreadnought or two existed in the MEU, they wouldn't have had much effect on the war. They'd be great for raiding rear-area bases, but the Reapers don't have any.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2017 20:28:34 GMT
Yeah, the Nexus parts makes no sense. It also strips the concept of you being a "pioneer" from the game. Everywhere the game was sold with lines such as "You are the pathfinder! You are the first in Andromeda, a pioneer!" Then when you get there, you find multiple (failed, but whatever) attempts to stablish, Milky Way tech and debris scattered all over space and planets. I even think Ryder doesn't take part in any actual First Contact. To be fair, Ryder was meant to be the pioneer. The videos about it were all from the perspective of "this is what happens when everything goes to plan". Then it didn't. The Arks all arrived late or were severely damaged. That prevented the pathfinders from participating in the way they were meant to. And, obviously, first contact happened while pathfinders were still in cryo, both with the Kett and the Angara.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2017 20:33:08 GMT
When I finished the ME3, I always wondered, what would have happen to all the people surviving the last battle since the Massrelays was destroyed. Did all of them settle around earth system, or did the build new relays, and how long time would it take for one ship to reach to the receiving end of the the relay and build a new one? Would have been a great game to rebuild the Milkyway. But apparently there was extremely good engines back then so no relays was needed. I think the slides show you everything you need to know. The mass effect relays were rebuilt quickly. Even the Catalyst says that any tech destroyed could easily be rebuilt. So there's no reason anyone would settle near Earth involuntarily. Besides, an extended stay by turians and quarians would be a death sentence. As for ODSY, apparently it was secret technology. Sort of like how QEC only existed on the Normandy in ME2 but was everywhere in ME3. Assume ODSY was something new that the AI developed. Perhaps post-ME3 the other races would begin to develop it. My vote goes to a non-Council race who can use it as leverage to get onto the Council.
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Post by adelthorne on Apr 14, 2017 23:11:42 GMT
When I finished the ME3, I always wondered, what would have happen to all the people surviving the last battle since the Massrelays was destroyed. Did all of them settle around earth system, or did the build new relays, and how long time would it take for one ship to reach to the receiving end of the the relay and build a new one? Would have been a great game to rebuild the Milkyway. But apparently there was extremely good engines back then so no relays was needed. I think the slides show you everything you need to know. The mass effect relays were rebuilt quickly. Even the Catalyst says that any tech destroyed could easily be rebuilt. So there's no reason anyone would settle near Earth involuntarily. Besides, an extended stay by turians and quarians would be a death sentence. As for ODSY, apparently it was secret technology. Sort of like how QEC only existed on the Normandy in ME2 but was everywhere in ME3. Assume ODSY was something new that the AI developed. Perhaps post-ME3 the other races would begin to develop it. My vote goes to a non-Council race who can use it as leverage to get onto the Council. But the relays needs to be repaired on both side though right, or Im I wrong?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 15, 2017 2:39:29 GMT
I think the slides show you everything you need to know. The mass effect relays were rebuilt quickly. Even the Catalyst says that any tech destroyed could easily be rebuilt. So there's no reason anyone would settle near Earth involuntarily. Besides, an extended stay by turians and quarians would be a death sentence. As for ODSY, apparently it was secret technology. Sort of like how QEC only existed on the Normandy in ME2 but was everywhere in ME3. Assume ODSY was something new that the AI developed. Perhaps post-ME3 the other races would begin to develop it. My vote goes to a non-Council race who can use it as leverage to get onto the Council. But the relays needs to be repaired on both side though right, or Im I wrong? I think each relay is its own thing. Not everyone is stuck on Earth. People are also elsewhere. That means repairs can be happening in multiple places at the same time. Sure, it would take some time to get everything up and running but Earth would not be isolated for very long. According to one relay map I found, the Charon Relay leads only to the Exodus Cluster (a hub relay). That relay leads to the Serpent Nebula (a hub relay), the Horsehead Nebula (a hub relay), Hades Gamma (a hub relay), Kite's Nest and Arcturus Stream. Those hubs all connect to multiple relays. I don't think Earth is that far away from a lot of connections. Admittedly, getting quarians home would be tough but even getting them into turian space (one away from the Serpent Nebula) would be extremely helpful so far as getting them fed goes. I really do think they would move quickly to repair relays so that everyone could go home.
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