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Post by mrvolio on Apr 3, 2017 6:51:56 GMT
Before I go full rant, I'll make it clear that I have indeed brought all Common, almost all Uncommon weapons to Rank X, and several Rare and UR weapons to serviceable rankings. Almost all my gameplay has shifted to Gold Runs, which I will be using to make my points/assumptions/conclusions
Now that that is out of the way, I'd like to ask: what happened? & How do you all feel? The Same? If not, am I crazy? probably soMany folks, regardless of class (including myself), fall upon the Vanquisher as the premiere effective weapon in MP; with good reason: the vast majority of weapons are just. plain. awful. Is it just bad balance? Did they just give us basic versions of the SP weapons which are balanced to be boosted by Ryder's MANY passive skills which improve gunplay; and then forget MP characters do not have those options? We may never know. Hopefully someone at bioware is looking through these posts.Assault Rifles - they feel like peashooters with zero accuracy beyond 20-meters, regardless of that you can empty entire thermal clips into basic enemies and come out with just barely draining shields. If you have Turbocharge ready? Congrats, you can kill 2-3 mooks. I loosely remember some thread listing the differences in damage numbers from the current weapons to their ME3 counterparts. We're pretty much seeing -50+% damage number decreases alongside some incomprehensible RoF changes. - Sure, the Falcon can still be OK if used right.
- The PAW can barely kill a simple goon before overheating, or strip shields.
- Did the Mattock really need that disgusting new RoF when it's weaker than most pistols?
In simpler tl;dr terms, AR's feel bad. Pistols, for the most part feel weak, but also contain some of only gems in the MEA armory. Sadly the ones who are know to do a decent chunk of damage are gated by slightly reduced output and a largely abysmal RoF that take 4-steps back from their ME3MP counterparts (Carnifex, i'm looking at you, buddy). - Hurricane/Equalizer are relatively up to snuff, large capacity + decent RoF make them reliable. (Sure, a Charger X can substitute)
- The big ALPHA STRIKE pistols genuinely don't afford much damage output, again, slow RoF, or in that Angaran pistol's case, it's a 1-2 shot affair. Enjoy reloading 2 times before your headshots kill a single Chosen.
- Then you have your Sidewinders, your Phalanxes, etc. the basic pistols; While weaker than the big boy pistols, frankly feel better. BUT, ONLY since you're able to unload more shots in the same span of 2 Carnifex shots.
tl;dr, better boat than AR's, but lots of problems nonetheless Shotguns, oh what a conundrum. It's so, so, so hard to put my finger on it, but they just don't feel all too right. In one aspect, they can feel like you're shooting a marshmallow cannon, on the other, they can utterly obliterate. Netcode? Bad Luck? Hopefully not skill? A fully choked Disciple X dead center on a Gold enemy's forehead shaves off about 25% of the healthbar @ 5 meters one day, instakills an Anointed the next. Most pellet-based shotguns feel VERY VERY inconsistent with prolonged use. YES, the Piranha is in fact an exception to that statement. It's volume trumping effectiveness. The Crusader and Reegar are also clearly exceptions. Crusader feels a smidge weaker than it's ME3 ancestor, but I find it serviceable (probably due to favoritism-bias, i love that gun). And the Reegar is just effective for what it is, albeit a little wonky. tl;dr 3 cool guns a good weapon class they do not make. Sniper Rifles, what can I say? Vanquisher. no really, Vanquisher. Did I mention, Vanquisher? Yes, Widow, Black Widow, Isharay, we still love you. But I'll come and say this, that gun is STRONG. Mayhaps too strong? But it's sadly the ONLY really dependable high-end weapon in ME:AMP right now that lets you put down henchmen if you can headshot consistently and quickly. The Vanquisher and hell, even the Raptor and Indra, have these bizarre perfect balances of 1. Damage + 2. RoF + 3. Accuracy + 4. Reload time. While the big bad Widow & Isharay have these heavenly BOOOOM spikes, they can't really be relied on during a Gold OBJ wave when your squad is pinned trying to defuse a device in the same way the Vanquisher can. tl;dr, SR's have the #1 Gary Stu gun in the current Meta. A Rapid-firing 4-5 shots of 500-900+ dmg (depending on class) = The Golden Gun circa Goldeneye 64. Other snipers are cool too. Look, I fully expect a knee-jerk nerf to the good ol' Vanny-Q, but seriously, BIOWARE, ESTABLISH A MEDIAN DPS RATE WITH YOUR WEAPONS. They feel inconsistent (See what I did there? that's really how them weapons feel.) Kett Weapons largely feel awful. Burst-Fire & Charge-fire Plasma Guns would be cool if they actually put out damage to match the unorthodox firing modes. Angarans have the Isharay, kudos. That pistol is awful. Remnant, PAW & Sweeper make me feel like a 40k Guardsman. I didn't think APEX would let me into combat with a flashlight.
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Post by mrfuddyduddy on Apr 3, 2017 7:14:04 GMT
Don't even get me started on weapon balance, skills, and detonation combos are weak as all hell. Biotic Combos tickle enemies even on Bronze and I swear Cyro detonations don't even deal damage.
Most if not all skills need a solid 100% buff to there base damage and Overload and Energy Drain need a 250% or higher buff to the damage they deal to shields on top of that base damage buff I mentioned.
Detonation Combos need a massive and I mean MASSIVE buff, talking 300-500% easy, why in the hell can my melee as a Vanguard chunk Raiders on Gold for a third of there health bar, while a Biotic Detonation only inflicts maybe an 8th or 9th of there health bar? In Mass Effect 3's MP you didn't even have to spec into detonation damage/radius on anything and if a Cerberus Trooper survived a combo on Gold it was with like 10% of his health, not 90%
Lastly weapons and this largely varies mainly due to the fact that on top of many weapons being underpowered they are simply too inaccurate to maintain consistent streams of damage while other weapons take an absurdly long time to reload.
Its like Andromeda's Multiplayer was balanced around a game mode we don't have access to that was even easier than Bronze difficulty, guys need to take notes from ME3MP. Gold everything is suppose to be viable to some degree, and boosters are suppose to be a means to make the content extra easy not a means to clear content period.
We shouldn't have that feeling that if we want to use something other than the Vanquisher or a Vanguard that we're forced to throw rare/Ultra Rare boosters on just to not feel like dead weight on Gold.
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" A wise man once said, forgiveness is divine but never pay full price for a late pizza. "
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Post by Nightman on Apr 3, 2017 7:16:53 GMT
No.
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Ryoku
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ryoku on Apr 3, 2017 7:25:57 GMT
Before I go full rant, I'll make it clear that I have indeed brought all Common, almost all Uncommon weapons to Rank X, and several Rare and UR weapons to serviceable rankings. Almost all my gameplay has shifted to Gold Runs, which I will be using to make my points/assumptions/conclusions
Now that that is out of the way, I'd like to ask: what happened? & How do you all feel? The Same? If not, am I crazy? probably soMany folks, regardless of class (including myself), fall upon the Vanquisher as the premiere effective weapon in MP; with good reason: the vast majority of weapons are just. plain. awful. Is it just bad balance? Did they just give us basic versions of the SP weapons which are balanced to be boosted by Ryder's MANY passive skills which improve gunplay; and then forget MP characters do not have those options? We may never know. Hopefully someone at bioware is looking through these posts.Assault Rifles - they feel like peashooters with zero accuracy beyond 20-meters, regardless of that you can empty entire thermal clips into basic enemies and come out with just barely draining shields. If you have Turbocharge ready? Congrats, you can kill 2-3 mooks. I loosely remember some thread listing the differences in damage numbers from the current weapons to their ME3 counterparts. We're pretty much seeing -50+% damage number decreases alongside some incomprehensible RoF changes. - Sure, the Falcon can still be OK if used right.
- The PAW can barely kill a simple goon before overheating, or strip shields.
- Did the Mattock really need that disgusting new RoF when it's weaker than most pistols?
In simpler tl;dr terms, AR's feel bad. Pistols, for the most part feel weak, but also contain some of only gems in the MEA armory. Sadly the ones who are know to do a decent chunk of damage are gated by slightly reduced output and a largely abysmal RoF that take 4-steps back from their ME3MP counterparts (Carnifex, i'm looking at you, buddy). - Hurricane/Equalizer are relatively up to snuff, large capacity + decent RoF make them reliable. (Sure, a Charger X can substitute)
- The big ALPHA STRIKE pistols genuinely don't afford much damage output, again, slow RoF, or in that Angaran pistol's case, it's a 1-2 shot affair. Enjoy reloading 2 times before your headshots kill a single Chosen.
- Then you have your Sidewinders, your Phalanxes, etc. the basic pistols; While weaker than the big boy pistols, frankly feel better. BUT, ONLY since you're able to unload more shots in the same span of 2 Carnifex shots.
tl;dr, better boat than AR's, but lots of problems nonetheless Shotguns, oh what a conundrum. It's so, so, so hard to put my finger on it, but they just don't feel all too right. In one aspect, they can feel like you're shooting a marshmallow cannon, on the other, they can utterly obliterate. Netcode? Bad Luck? Hopefully not skill? A fully choked Disciple X dead center on a Gold enemy's forehead shaves off about 25% of the healthbar @ 5 meters one day, instakills an Anointed the next. Most pellet-based shotguns feel VERY VERY inconsistent with prolonged use. YES, the Piranha is in fact an exception to that statement. It's volume trumping effectiveness. The Crusader and Reegar are also clearly exceptions. Crusader feels a smidge weaker than it's ME3 ancestor, but I find it serviceable (probably due to favoritism-bias, i love that gun). And the Reegar is just effective for what it is, albeit a little wonky. tl;dr 3 cool guns a good weapon class they do not make. Sniper Rifles, what can I say? Vanquisher. no really, Vanquisher. Did I mention, Vanquisher? Yes, Widow, Black Widow, Isharay, we still love you. But I'll come and say this, that gun is STRONG. Mayhaps too strong? But it's sadly the ONLY really dependable high-end weapon in ME:AMP right now that lets you put down henchmen if you can headshot consistently and quickly. The Vanquisher and hell, even the Raptor and Indra, have these bizarre perfect balances of 1. Damage + 2. RoF + 3. Accuracy + 4. Reload time. While the big bad Widow & Isharay have these heavenly BOOOOM spikes, they can't really be relied on during a Gold OBJ wave when your squad is pinned trying to defuse a device in the same way the Vanquisher can. tl;dr, SR's have the #1 Gary Stu gun in the current Meta. A Rapid-firing 4-5 shots of 500-900+ dmg (depending on class) = The Golden Gun circa Goldeneye 64. Other snipers are cool too. Look, I fully expect a knee-jerk nerf to the good ol' Vanny-Q, but seriously, BIOWARE, ESTABLISH A MEDIAN DPS RATE WITH YOUR WEAPONS. They feel inconsistent (See what I did there? that's really how them weapons feel.) Kett Weapons largely feel awful. Burst-Fire & Charge-fire Plasma Guns would be cool if they actually put out damage to match the unorthodox firing modes. Angarans have the Isharay, kudos. That pistol is awful. Remnant, PAW & Sweeper make me feel like a 40k Guardsman. I didn't think APEX would let me into combat with a flashlight. You know I'm thinking part of the problem is the guns have way to much spread, I was playing one of the soldier classes hosting and i was single shot taping on enemies across the map getting headshot after headshot (w/ Avenger X) and they were taking pretty good dmg, but you go to medium range and go full auto and dmg goes out the window, unless your using turbocharge. Which I guess still boils down to bad balance. I would rather have to control my recoil then have my bullets spray randomly all over the place.
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Post by mrfuddyduddy on Apr 3, 2017 7:28:08 GMT
No what? Don't tell me your one of those git gud's that thinks the balance is perfect right now.
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Post by victornero7 on Apr 3, 2017 7:28:28 GMT
Amazing post, everything was spot on, 10/10 essay would read again.
I REALLY hope Bioware sees this
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Tec187
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: tec187
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Post by Tec187 on Apr 3, 2017 7:32:53 GMT
If they are collecting any sort of game data from our sessions, i find it impossible for them not to fix this. right...? 98% of all matches are now melee and Vanq spamming... and have been for a while, but it's getting "worse" by the day, as more people get clued in...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 7:36:25 GMT
Unfortunately, your message is longer than 140 characters and has therefore been ignored by the balance team.
-BioWare Twitter rep
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Post by Stinja on Apr 3, 2017 7:38:42 GMT
Maybe I can understand they have metrics on progression curves, and it does all map out, and we can't see the big picture... However it does feel like so much of the player's tools do no damage, and you're urinating on a forest fire. Biower plz!
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Post by mrfuddyduddy on Apr 3, 2017 7:42:03 GMT
If they are collecting any sort of game data from our sessions, i find it impossible for them not to fix this. right...? 98% of all matches are now melee and Vanq spamming... and have been for a while, but it's getting "worse" by the day, as more people get clued in... All me and my friends do, 4 Human Vanguards and Gold couldn't be easier and we don't even have to fire a shot. Only time we don't full extract is if someone managed to get folded right as the timer hits zero. If anything this is going to turn horrible, as all there data is going to show is that Vanguards and Vanquisher are king and obviously need a nerf while nothing receives a buff.
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" A wise man once said, forgiveness is divine but never pay full price for a late pizza. "
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Post by Nightman on Apr 3, 2017 7:56:08 GMT
No what? Don't tell me your one of those git gud's that thinks the balance is perfect right now. No.
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Transcended One
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: TranscendedOne
PSN: Cornughon
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Post by Transcended One on Apr 3, 2017 10:23:07 GMT
It kind of makes me wonder: Could it be that all weapons and powers except for maybe the Vanquisher actually ARE balanced (since they're all a similar level of not-so-greatness), but the enemies are just too much bulletsponge?
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Post by Pounce de León on Apr 3, 2017 10:27:14 GMT
Melee ALL the things.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 10:28:31 GMT
Vanquisher is the new Krysae it seems. Bring one to your gold game or expect to be kicked before match start or just before extraction.
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inert
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: linertl
XBL Gamertag: inert14
Posts: 989 Likes: 5,556
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Post by inert on Apr 3, 2017 11:48:10 GMT
Yep. Using weapons and powers? You're doing it wrong. Clearly we're meant to repetitively punch everything. The only powers you should spec into either bring you into melee range or boost melee strength. Or you can vanquisher.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: TranscendedOne
PSN: Cornughon
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Post by Transcended One on Apr 3, 2017 15:29:18 GMT
Vanquisher is the new Krysae it seems. Bring one to your gold game or expect to be kicked before match start or just before extraction. Ahh yes I remember the times when a new DLC came out with overpowered guns: like in Earth DLC with the Typhoon and Piranha, and everyone complaining about them because they kinda took all the fun out of the game (though I agree that every other weapons should pack a bit more punch in Andromeda instead of just nerfing the Vanquisher).
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Post by CHRrOME on Apr 3, 2017 16:57:25 GMT
It's a disaster and weapon category means nothing.
Pistols, shottys, and SMGs should be superb in close quarters. Pistols would trade-off a bit of damage for better range, SMGs probably way less damage in favor of being full auto and allowing to kill multiple enemies in CQB with relative ease. ARs should be mid to long range, accuracy and damage wise. SRs are meant for long range, but if people want to use them in CQB, that's up to them. No need to add penalties a.k.a hipfire damage loss. In general SRs are auto-balanced with their low ammo capacity anyways.
As it is now it looks like we're either suppose to use the Vanquisher or melee. No room for variety.
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Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Apr 3, 2017 17:10:24 GMT
I have very few weapons so far so I can't judge things, I think all of these under powered weapons will be much better once people get higher versions.
Also BioWare needs to collect their telemetry data over a while to make balance judgements. We are still only 2 weeks into the game. People are playing and winning on Bronze, silver and gold.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 3, 2017 17:23:10 GMT
Damnit, I have to listen to Man of Constant sorrow now.
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Post by mrvolio on Apr 4, 2017 0:09:43 GMT
If they are collecting any sort of game data from our sessions, i find it impossible for them not to fix this. right...? 98% of all matches are now melee and Vanq spamming... and have been for a while, but it's getting "worse" by the day, as more people get clued in... TBQH, yes. I seriously hope so. ME3MP had fairly regular balance passes going into it. We can hope for so much.
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Post by Pearl on Apr 4, 2017 0:17:23 GMT
I have very few weapons so far so I can't judge things, I think all of these under powered weapons will be much better once people get higher versions. Spoiler alert: No they're not.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 4, 2017 0:19:24 GMT
I have very few weapons so far so I can't judge things, I think all of these under powered weapons will be much better once people get higher versions. Spoiler alert: No they're not. Shh. Don't break his spirit yet. He needs to realize the truth for himself.
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Post by zahdane on Apr 4, 2017 0:25:53 GMT
I use pretty much one gun for every build so far. Equalizer. I've never been that great of a sniper, then again I haven't received a vanquisher yet.
The biggest gripe I have with almost all guns is the reload time and issues (bugs?) with reloading. I feel that's one of the biggest reasons why the Equalizer is so good.
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Durza
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Durza113
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Post by Durza on Apr 4, 2017 1:08:24 GMT
I use pretty much one gun for every build so far. Equalizer. I've never been that great of a sniper, then again I haven't received a vanquisher yet. The biggest gripe I have with almost all guns is the reload time and issues (bugs?) with reloading. I feel that's one of the biggest reasons why the Equalizer is so good. No bugs, just anything and everything interrupts your reload animation. No reload cancelling, so that puts you back to square 1 every time you get hit by something other than small arms fire during a reload
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Destroydacre
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Destroydacre
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Post by Destroydacre on Apr 4, 2017 6:27:12 GMT
I use pretty much one gun for every build so far. Equalizer. I've never been that great of a sniper, then again I haven't received a vanquisher yet. The biggest gripe I have with almost all guns is the reload time and issues (bugs?) with reloading. I feel that's one of the biggest reasons why the Equalizer is so good. No bugs, just anything and everything interrupts your reload animation. No reload cancelling, so that puts you back to square 1 every time you get hit by something other than small arms fire during a reload I don't know, I feel like there's a lot of times playing off host where my character completes the reload animation and I'm not being shot and the mag is still empty.
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