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Post by SofNascimento on Apr 3, 2017 19:31:18 GMT
A significant amount of people were not very fond of the trilogy Paragon/Renegade system. That was mostly because, in their view, it made choices be 'good x evil' or even 'right x wrong'. And so, for Mass Effect Andromeda to have a more nuanced morality and better choices/dialogue, they considered it was important to let go of that old system.
That happened. The question I'd like to ask is: did it improve the dialogue, decision making and character building? Did it make Ryder a more satisfying character to play as? That do you think?
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Post by shechinah on Apr 3, 2017 19:34:04 GMT
Yes, I feel it made a positive difference. I'll see if I can get back to you on it when I've formulated my thoughts more neatly.
I would like to note that I know that some people would like more "mean" options. I just want to point out that those can be added without bringing back to the morality meter. I've gotten the impression that some people confused renegade options for the paragon and renegade system and think those options are dependent on that.
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Post by Sable Rhapsody on Apr 3, 2017 19:35:16 GMT
Morality meters don't matter if you don't get interesting moral choices. I'm not sure if that's quite what they were going for, but that was my final impression.
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Post by Karin Davis on Apr 3, 2017 19:39:14 GMT
There was no right or wrong in the Trilogy imo. Means to an end is never purely evil or considered bad, maybe desperate. We have one button option now for these "impulse actions" but can yield an either positive or negative reactions. Like for example, I save Sloane every time, because getting sniped in the back of the head during a "legit" 1 on 1 duel is very sad and pathetic.
But then I think about what a total *itch she is, and will continue to be, so I would like to have her killed in a play through and see where that turns the "story". Or pissing Cora off by saying something to an Asari she didn't think was "professional" There's a job to do, and you have to get 'er done. Your way. Whatever way that is. Remember Fable? The Lost Chapters? Now there's a great morality system.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 3, 2017 19:39:43 GMT
Even though I would have liked more input on Ryder's personality I am glad we didn't have obvious paragon or renegade choices. In the trilogy you had to commit one way or the other if you wanted to get the best outcomes.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 3, 2017 20:41:09 GMT
Yes, I do think it made Ryder much more enjoyable to play. With the old system, I felt stuck to renegade and paragon to maximize my points. It felt like the system was playing me instead of me playing the system. Maxing one or the other was required to those who say it wasn't. You needed full paragon to save the fleet and Tali in ME3. With this system, I have no qualms about the choices and impulse decisions I make. For example, I let the sniper kill Sloane because I liked Reyes more a character. If the paragon system was in play, I would have saved her because the points would have gone paragon. The same thing with fighting the cardinal on Voeld, I wouldn't have shot her after she freed the people if renegade was tied to it.
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Post by Raga on Apr 3, 2017 20:44:40 GMT
I really liked playing Ryder but they actually backpedaled significantly here because the 4 options are like 90% personality flavor options and you get to decide next to nothing. The argument for getting rid of morality scales wasn't to get rid of morality decisions but to get rid of arbitrarily punishing you for not being "pure" one thing or the other. I wanted to be able to play a paragade or renegon without micro-management, not to get the 4 ways of paragon.
Basically, keep the *kinds* of choices Shepard could make. Ditch the stupid score keeping.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 3, 2017 20:48:16 GMT
Agree with Raga. I didn't mind the P/R system in the OT so much as I didn't like having to be tied to one or the other to keep my score up.
I honestly don't even notice its removal while I am playing MEA so I can't say it was all that important to the games.
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Post by Raga on Apr 3, 2017 20:54:09 GMT
To followup on my above statement, what's needed is the level of variety for personality options you have for Hawke/Ryder *and* morality choices with substantive differences like Shepard has or in DAO.
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Post by cotheer on Apr 3, 2017 20:58:32 GMT
Paragon/Renegade > Four Shades of Paragon Can't remember how many times i wanted that true renegade option because i was truly pissed, but nope. The whole Sloane deal just screamed for some renegade action.
Just to be clear, i could care less for the Paragon/Renegade meter, it's all about Paragon/Renegade options.
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Post by Sah291 on Apr 3, 2017 21:21:00 GMT
Yes.
I didn't dislike the paragon/renegade, just the way that it could lock you out of dialogues if you tried to mix them. After a while it got to be all about maximizing your points over picking the actual dialogue/choice you really wanted. Also by the third game the renegade options just turned out to be more and more evil..whereas in ME1 and ME2, renegade choices weren't necessarily evil, and sometimes just reflected Shepard's feelings about authority figures, or were just more pragmatic versus idealistic, etc.
I liked in MEA how the dialogue and voice acting flowed, no matter how you were stringing the dialogue together. I think this was a big improvement. I turned the icon symbols off and it really enhanced immersion, since I wasn't meta gaming and just picked dialogue as a gut reaction to events as they happened.
I would like to see some more renegade-like choices in the future if they make a sequel, and if we see Ryder's character become a bit tougher due to story events, but I think the dialogue as it is now fits the lighter and less cynical tone of MEA. I think the OT was a much darker story.
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Post by NUM13ER on Apr 3, 2017 21:43:01 GMT
There's pros and cons. I found it much more natural to make every decision on a case-by-case basis, without any sort of penalties (beyond narrative consequences of course). So it was a bit more nuanced in many cases. The general overall idea I quite like and a lot of the time it worked for me.
However I feel like there was too much personality presented outside the chosen dialogue. Ryder is very quippy and lighthearted in dialogue you have no say in, even when you're presenting a more logical and professional demeanour. I don't mind auto dialogue when it's mostly exposition but there was just a little too much personality coming through in dialogue you had no say in.
There needs to be a bit more bite in some of the responses. Addison insults your father not long after he dies and there's no option to chew her out for her disrespect. Ryder has some great interrupts and actions that fall into cold pragmatism, but perhaps not quite enough of this attitude is reflected in the way of dialogue.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 21:47:45 GMT
No meter, but you can read about yourself in the journal and it tells you how you are as a person.
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Post by NUM13ER on Apr 3, 2017 21:48:49 GMT
I would like to see some more renegade-like choices in the future if they make a sequel, and if we see Ryder's character become a bit tougher due to story events, but I think the dialogue as it is now fits the lighter and less cynical tone of MEA. I think the OT was a much darker story. I did think that perhaps this was what they were going for overall. Ryder's not the confident N7 badass Shepard was from the outset, so he doesn't have a reputation that would make renegade threats and actions hold the weight it would for a council Spectre. But with experience under his belt and an established reputation as a badass, he might now get a lot more respect and be more inclined to punish disrespect in turn.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 3, 2017 21:51:59 GMT
I would like to see some more renegade-like choices in the future if they make a sequel, and if we see Ryder's character become a bit tougher due to story events, but I think the dialogue as it is now fits the lighter and less cynical tone of MEA. I think the OT was a much darker story. I did think that perhaps this was what they were going for overall. Ryder's not the confident N7 badass Shepard was from the outset, so he doesn't have a reputation that would make renegade threats and actions hold the weight it would for a council Spectre. But with experience under his belt and an established reputation as a badass, he might now get a lot more respect and be more inclined to punish disrespect in turn. I am going to paraphrase something Ryder said in the game when talking to Liam. He basically mentioned he is not the only Pathfinder, so he really doesn't have that much power or authority because he is just the human Pathfinder. Maybe down the line though like you said people will start respecting him for the badass he really is instead of just another Pathfinder.
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Post by Zemgus on Apr 3, 2017 21:54:31 GMT
R/P wasn't perfect, but at least it offered a choice. Here we more often than not seem to have none. Or if we do it's lesser of two evils. Same thing, said slightly differently. Choose which way you wanna Ryder to say it (instead of what she says).
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Post by shechinah on Apr 3, 2017 22:02:51 GMT
I would like to see more "mean" options as long as it is not at the cost of the story and characters like it were at times during the OT.
I'll give an example to explain what I mean: the Council.
In the first game, the Council should have yanked Shepard back to the Citadel early on by the neck and told Shepard to either respect their authority or be removed from the case. They have other Spectres avaliable that can take the case and as they demonstrated with Saren, Spectre status can be revoked which would look very bad for humanity's efforts to be taken serious if they lost their first Spectre shortly after gaining one. The Council don't need to let Shepard do this: they allow Shepard to.
Basically, Shepard should have never been able to so blatantly disrespect them like by repeatedly hanging up on them without facing some repercussions for that. It made the Council, the leaders of the galactic civilisation, into a complete joke and detracted from Mass Effect's setting because of it. These people weren't powerless nobodies that could only say a few strong words in response: these are some of the most powerful people in the Milky Way galaxy that can, again, revoke Shepard's status and throw Shepard off the case if they want to.
In short and repeating myself: I like having options but I don't want mean options at the cost of the story and characters getting diminished like what happened in the OT. That's why I prefer these choices in Andromeda but wouldn't mind having choices like punching that bitch on Kadara that called me a Nexus dog.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 22:16:56 GMT
With regard's to dialogue I consider MEA to have taken a step backwards from the trilogy. As an example I liked that the epilogue of ME1 changed according to your morality as an acknowledgement of the long term decisions Shepard made were paragon signaled cooperation and common interests and renegade symbolized Independance and the advancement of Humanity.
In Andromeda the dichotomy should have been similar, Are we looking at what the Milky races share with the Andromedans or instead what sets them apart? That could have been an interesting setup for a morality system.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 3, 2017 22:17:23 GMT
I like that decisions didn't have to be labelled as being paragon and renegade. It really didn't help that what paragon and renegade respectively meant was inconsistent. Take renegade: sometimes renegade was rude, sometimes renegade was pragmatic, sometimes renegade was rebel and sometimes renegade was malicious. I like that the decisions can just be decisions and that the consequence of them lie in story as oppose to some morality system. An example would be the choice between the scouts and Raeka. I like being able to make decisions from a case-to-case basis without worrying that I didn't select enough blue or red options. This is especially since I roleplay my character. I could honestly appreciate a lot of the choices more in this game because of the absence of the morality system as wierd as this may sound. I could appreciate and consider each decision based on the story, characters and circumstances. This goes even for the choices that I didn't take. I'm putting them under a spoiler tag since I'm going to elaborate on the circumstances surrounding them: - The Cardinal was the one in charge of the exaltation facility and exaltation. Killing her removed another kett from the chain of command while also potentially setting back the kett's exaltation progress.
- Killing Kalinda was to ensure the remnant tech was saved instead of her. This piece of tech could provide a potentially unique look into how remnant technology function that could prove vastly useful including in helping people survive through improving terra forming and against the kett. Such an oppertunity might not come again.
- Refusing to give the Remnant drive core to the krogan is done because of how unsure a long-term alliance with them is and how the independence it provides could lead to krogan having an advantage should the unsure alliance fall through.
- Allowing Ruth Bekker to be killed by the Roekaar holding her hostage is done to make absolutely sure that an incredibly contagious disease cannot be used as a bio-weapon by terrorists. Allowing the Roekaar to escape ran the risk of that happening.
- Allowing the AI to kill the angaran former slave is done because she could provide valuable information especially as a creation of a pre-angaran people. The kett's interest in her adds to this. It is done to exchange one life for a potential wealth of information.
- Killing the hackers are done to prevent them from threatening the Nexus and its people with their rather reckless sabotage of systems important to keeping people alive.
Bit of a clumsy explaination but there you go. In general, I cannot express my relief enough that there is no paragon and renegade system. I feel like I have much more freedom to roleplay my character the way I want and that I now worry about what the consequences my actions might have in the story. Before, I worried what consequences me not selecting enough blue or red decisions might have on my roleplay which was not fun. Note: In case anyone notices, yes, I did take portions of this from other posts of mine and edit it.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 3, 2017 22:18:34 GMT
With regard's to dialogue I consider MEA to have taken a step backwards from the trilogy. As an example I liked that the epilogue of ME1 changed according to your morality as an acknowledgement of the long term decisions Shepard made were paragon signaled cooperation and common interests and renegade symbolized Independance and the advancement of Humanity. In Andromeda the dichotomy should have been similar, Are we looking at what the Milky races share with the Andromedans or instead what sets them apart? That could have been an interesting setup for a morality system. Or we don't get a morality system at all since it effects game play and story. Instead, we add just the p/r options with no bar behind it.
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Post by mmoblitz on Apr 3, 2017 22:31:20 GMT
R/P wasn't perfect, but at least it offered a choice. Here we more often than not seem to have none. Or if we do it's lesser of two evils. Same thing, said slightly differently. Choose which way you wanna Ryder to say it (instead of what she says). This. Bioware decides what we say, we just pick how to say it. I really dislike this new system as it's not my Ryder I'm playing, but Biowares. As someone else mentioned in another thread, the Ryders are treated like a doormat. Constantly getting walked on. I'm surprised the Tempest didn't come with a "safe space" for Ryder to run to when someone yells at him.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 3, 2017 22:32:40 GMT
R/P wasn't perfect, but at least it offered a choice. Here we more often than not seem to have none. Or if we do it's lesser of two evils. Same thing, said slightly differently. Choose which way you wanna Ryder to say it (instead of what she says). This. Bioware decides what we say, we just pick how to say it. I really dislike this new system as it's not my Ryder I'm playing, but Biowares. As someone else mentioned in another thread, the Ryders are treated like a doormat. Constantly getting walked on. I'm surprised the Tempest didn't come with a "safe space" for Ryder to run to when someone yells at him. My Ryder would just make a snarky comment back and move on with his day.
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Post by RoboticWater on Apr 3, 2017 22:55:20 GMT
Whether or not Andromeda was committed to providing extensive player expression through dialog is debatable, but removing meters and arbitrary morality delimiters can only ever be a good thing. It's disheartening to see some people conflate a wider range of expression with a mundane stat system. Quite frankly, it's ludicrous to think that a colored bar is the only proper foundation for diverse conversation options.
I suppose its existence may have obligated BioWare to supply an adequate number of both good and bad choices, but that really shouldn't be necessary.
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Post by henkiedepost on Apr 3, 2017 23:19:42 GMT
Don't really know yet. A morality meter was in a certain way capable of making choices matter. By picking certain dialogue options you would 'mold' Shepard into a Renegade or Paragon and therefore lock out or unlock decisions later on in the game. It was a good basis but it had some flaws. As an example, you couldn't really choose for a middle road which limited true RPG roleplaying. A better way can indeed be found in the premise of the system Andromeda tries to be. Every decision would be judged on its own merits and the journal would afterwards show how people/the world responded to your options. The problem with Andromeda however is that so far (I just went to Sloan Kelly for the first time) there barely are any meaningful choices at all. When making a difficult decision I tend to look up on the internet what the consequences would be later down the road. So far I've almost always read it doesn't matter in the slightest what you do and that bugs me.... I don't need to make a meaningful choice every 5 minutes to feel immersed but I just don't have the feeling that I need to prove myself as a leader/pathfinder. Every choice you make doesn't seem to matter, therefore the choice itself holds no value at all except for what you yourself feel about it. No squadmate has ever truly been outspoken against a decision I made. They say a cheap oneliner and move on or just stay quiet. Nothing bad happened so far because I 'screwed up' or chose for something which could compromise the initiative down the road. Example: Kallo and Gill are fighting at the research station. Everyone watches what happens and I have to make a difficult choice with all my squaddies standing around and looking at me. It turns out however that it doesn't matter who you choose. Kallo and Gill say something and get over it and the other squadmates don't even comment at all. That would have been a great moment for having an argument with squadmates about whom you favored but instead nothing really happens. And another one: Supporting the protestors on the Nexus doesn't do anything at all. You 'gain the support of the people' but as far as I know it doesn't mean anything in game. What Kandros says afterwards, about how people could now think protesting can now actually enforce their demands, would have been a cool outcome later down the road but nothing happens. So 'gaining the trust of the people' does nothing and showing people that protesting actually works also gives no negative outcome. The game is riddled with missed opportunities like this. Except for an email or a oneliner you don't truly shape the world around you. Tldr; The basis of Andromeda is better but it desperately needs better writing regarding consequences of the choices you make. Difficult choices only truly hold value if they actually mean something down the road. Now it feels all the options are retconned into the same gray outcome. In this perspective Renegade or Paragon was actually better, because this way you'd actually change the outcome of the quest. I hope this is something Bioware picks up in later installments. Like I voiced in another thread, I'd rather cut down on fancy new things like Open World so Bioware can focus more on polishing writing and quests. Those are the meat of the game I enjoy the most.
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Post by amleth on Apr 4, 2017 0:38:16 GMT
Oh yes I love it that the worst thing I can do in this game is decide if I want to say fuck.
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