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Post by SofNascimento on Apr 7, 2017 23:57:47 GMT
Shepard has more personality in this scene:
Than Ryder in the entirety of Andromeda.
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PSUHammer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PSUHammer on Apr 8, 2017 0:01:33 GMT
I think Shep was such a different character. I played him straight Paragon super hero military guy and it worked well for the OT. For Ryder, they were much less heroic. I played a completed wise ass and that totally fit the theme. There were no pending Reaper invasions and it was light.
That being said...the story and enemies in Andromeda were poor. Kett are just the Collectors Part 2. Remenant are just the Geth/Prothean hybrid.
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bladefist
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by bladefist on Apr 8, 2017 0:03:42 GMT
1) Scott was made Pathfinder within 1 hour which wasn't "knee deep into the game" imo 2) Not being told what kind of hero I was supposed to be didn't cause me to feel disconnected to Scott. On the contrary I was able to make decisions based on what I would do if I was Ryder (not based paragon or renegade playthrough). 3) Being on the Pathfinder team is a big deal. In addition to the initial training, Scott is a recon specialist. He demonstrates his capabilities on Habitat 7 by dealing with Kett, rescuing his team gathering data on the planet without help from SAM. 4) Why use the memed-to-death Sara in this comparison?
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Post by setokaiba on Apr 8, 2017 0:09:50 GMT
Shepard has more personality in this scene: Than Ryder in the entirety of Andromeda. To each their own but I found Shepard boring. I like Shepard but I feel like his/her crew was the best part of trilogy well Shepard was just the super soldier badass they needed as a leader.
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Post by setokaiba on Apr 8, 2017 0:14:50 GMT
I think Shep was such a different character. I played him straight Paragon super hero military guy and it worked well for the OT. For Ryder, they were much less heroic. I played a completed wise ass and that totally fit the theme. There were no pending Reaper invasions and it was light. That being said...the story and enemies in Andromeda were poor. Kett are just the Collectors Part 2. Remenant are just the Geth/Prothean hybrid. The Kett don't interest me at all. They don't even explain their goals well besides "mah we evil".
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thisisme8
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Origin: Thisisme8
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Post by thisisme8 on Apr 8, 2017 0:15:30 GMT
1) Scott was made Pathfinder within 1 hour which wasn't "knee deep into the game" imo 2) Not being told what kind of hero I was supposed to be didn't cause me to feel disconnected to Scott. On the contrary I was able to make decisions based on what I would do if I was Ryder (not based paragon or renegade playthrough). 3) Being on the Pathfinder team is a big deal. In addition to the initial training, Scott is a recon specialist. He demonstrates his capabilities on Habitat 7 by dealing with Kett, rescuing his team gathering data on the planet without help from SAM. 4) Why use the memed-to-death Sara in this comparison? 1) By the time you get control of Shepard, you already know exactly who you are. Ryder was a bit different. The introduction wasn't as clear (history/ambition/purpose) until about an hour in, which most of us already create a profile to a degree of what we imagine they should be like. 2) I guess you could say it's about template. We're given a complete template in some games, not so much here. 3)... 4) Because I used Sara and was able to capture her in-game using my playthrough.
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thisisme8
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Post by thisisme8 on Apr 8, 2017 0:27:19 GMT
I think people who say "Shepard was a badass veteran, how is that more relateable" are missing the point of the video. The idea is expections being set. Because Shepard was a badass veteran, it immediately informed you, the player as to what kind of character he might be. He's seen some shit so he may be serious, sardonic or anything else in between but that informs the slant of those emotions somewhat. Then you have the fact that you can set some of his history further narrowing down expectations while simultaneously getting you involved in creating and identifying with him. Now contrast that to Ryder, who is introduced more like a blank slate. Here's the opening to Andromeda if any aren't familiar with it. Despite the callback in visuals (PC stares out a window as main supporting character voiced by a celebrity narrates), the actual content is entirely backwards. The original Mass Effect used that opening sequence to already introduce Shepard to you. You see his face, you hear characters recount their backstory and offer opinions about it, the entire blocking, music, and visuals in that scene are meant to reveal the player character so that when you take him over it's so smooth you barely even notice. Now contrast Andromeda. Faceless protagonists in helmets (I'm guessing those are supposed to be the Ryders, for all I know it could be NPCs; lack of distinctive armor is another detail here that fails to do what the original did) and the celebrity support character merely re-iterates not only what we already know about the premise from the freakin title, but also the thing that we'll have to read in a text crawl anyway. Then the character is "reborn" in a plain white room while other characters talk at them and they have precisely one quip as obvious as it is uninformative. This is a blank slate all the way. Except they're not, and as has been mentioned in other threads, if you intend to roleplay as anything other than "sarcasting kid", you're in for a rude awakening. Yeah, watching this is really starting to make me feel like Andromeda needs a Plinkett level deconstruction, just based on the first five minutes. You nailed exactly what I've been saying. It's about expectation and delivery of narrative. By the end of ME:A, I loved Ryder. One of the main reasons why, as many people have brought up, you get to be Ryder as they go through the hero's journey. But the introduction of this character from a narrative standpoint was executed poorly. Shepard's on the other hand (and remember, Shepard is a straight-forward, simple character with 1 goal) doesn't have the most compelling personal journey, but has a very well executed introduction. So in the first 20 minutes of the game, I related to Shepard more than Ryder - emotionally. By hour 60, about equal.
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SKAR
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Can you dig it?
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Post by SKAR on Apr 8, 2017 0:28:45 GMT
To each their own. I relate more to Ryder probably due to closeness in age.
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lezio
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Post by lezio on Apr 8, 2017 0:38:32 GMT
I actually really enjoyed the expectations of Alec Ryder and how the game snatches it away completely, and it was a pleasant change, to me, to be the "recruit" that gets thrusted into a role of greater responsibility, almost like if we were to play a sequence where Shepard fights off batarians during the blitz. Before that, no one really knew or cared about Shepard yet. They could have handled it better, though Spoilers for the prologue For example by making us be Alec for the whole prologue, powers and all (also to give us a taste of how a high level char would be capable of doing), maybe even Eos too, and then boom you're dead. Hi Scott/Sarah. As it was made i could hardly find in myself to care about the old dude.
At least they went out of their way to engineer a situation where it would make sense for the kid to be in charge(the whole SAM thing), and also to make it clear that half of the people that knew about it didn't really trust us fully, unlike Inquisition where neither of those was done
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 8, 2017 0:39:15 GMT
The trivial thing is why we needed this story with Ryder as the protagonist but I like to think that Ryder can grow in the sense that while he's carefree in this game and full of optimism and makes everything work, then in Andromeda 2 he's faced with a bigger responsibility (I know this sounds insane next to Terraforming 5 planets to save a potentially dying race and stuff) that requires him to become more serious. Imagine the beauty of that as the dialogue wheel tones change slightly so maybe Casual becomes "Levity", Emotional becomes "Empathetic" and Professional becomes "Efficient". That would also mean that if his crew stays the time for fun and winding down is replaced with putting the crew to the test as they start to expect more of each other which makes more tension sometimes.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
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Post by jpcab on Apr 8, 2017 1:48:08 GMT
Guys...do not try to hide what is obvious...when i started playing Me i was after 5 minutes connected to Shepard. I still feel nothing for Ryder character. The best emotive moment on this game was of his father when he save his son life.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Apr 8, 2017 1:57:23 GMT
To each their own. I relate more to Ryder probably due to closeness in age. well im the same age as the ryders but i relate to alec more.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Apr 8, 2017 1:59:21 GMT
Guys...do not try to hide what is obvious...when i started playing Me i was after 5 minutes connected to Shepard. I still feel nothing for Ryder character. The best emotive moment on this game was of his father when he save his son life. funny how ryder doesnt emote when his dad died. I mean telltale can do it with Lee using pisspoor graphic art graphics why cant bioware?
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Post by Cassandra on Apr 8, 2017 2:11:57 GMT
I'll preface this by acknowledging I do like Ryder. Nonetheless, Shepard proved a more compelling character even if I disagree she were as fleshed out as that video attempts to argue. With Shepard, expectations and history were firmly established in a believable manner. It made sense why Shepard held the position and skills she did, and the narrative continuously reinforced it. Even omitting the reaper war entirely, Shepard still possessed the experience to go far on merit alone.
Where I feel an argument for relatable can come into play is dialogue choices. Despite Andromeda having seemingly more robust dialogue tree, I felt more than a few instances Ryder were a BioWare character whose story I'm watching whereas Shepard I could better craft their personality. Admittedly, that became somewhat muddy in ME3, what with all the auto-dialogue. But it almost feels this streamlining process rears its ugly head again.
I don't know if I would say Shepard is more relatable, but I would say she became far more interesting. In fairness to Ryder, she'll hopefully have another game to better establish herself.
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mihai2011rom
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Post by mihai2011rom on Apr 8, 2017 2:35:14 GMT
Renegade Shepard was a badass. Ryder is really weak and less confrontational compared to him. I miss Shepard.
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Mihura
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“Major Wulf Khan and the 903rd Catachan ‘Night Shrikes’…”
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Mihura on Apr 8, 2017 2:48:47 GMT
I actually never connect that much with Shepard nor Geralt, to me DA:O is still the best RP game out there because it truly gives you six arcs to built upon. The Inquisitor comes close, since they did something of the same with Josephine questions about your life and you could even choose two different voices. For me an RPG is that, The Witcher and ME are more like a action games with set protagonist with some elements of RP in the mix.
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Post by Addictress on Apr 8, 2017 2:55:15 GMT
Shepard is more relateable to me because, as with Shepard, my life is an uphill battle toward an inevitable demise, with each day growing darker, and little hope on the horizon
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“Major Wulf Khan and the 903rd Catachan ‘Night Shrikes’…”
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Mihura on Apr 8, 2017 3:01:37 GMT
Shepard is more relateable to me because, as with Shepard, my life is an uphill battle toward an inevitable demise, with each day growing darker, and little hope on the horizon Idk maybe a little nihilism could help? man if you are not joking than I am sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 3:30:29 GMT
Shepard was a familiar character (a military officer & hero) in familiar space (the Milky Way) from the very beginning. So, yeah, it was pretty easy to slip one's role-playing feet into Shepard's combat boots.
Ryder is this thing we've never done before - BioWare's definition of a Pathfinder - a stranger in a strange land - and that in itself makes it a bit more challenging to play the character at the outset.
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RageUnderFire
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Origin: Aralakh
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Post by RageUnderFire on Apr 8, 2017 4:43:13 GMT
N7 is a real man.
Ryder is a contemporary guy who tries to please everyone lmao.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 8, 2017 4:55:35 GMT
The beginning of ME:1 was so damn awesome, I was hooked right away. Them talking about you, then you walking through the ship with the music playing, and then going through a relay for the first time. I still get pumped when I play ME:1. But on topic. I don't think that Ryder not being fleshed out has anything to do with it. The Warden was no different than Ryder. I played Human Noble first. You weren't a hero in the beginning, had no expectations. In fact, you weren't even the one the Wardens came to recruit, you just ended going to Ostagar by chance, but people were really attached to their Wardens. I just think Ryder is a scapegoat for the game's issues in general. Also, I didn't think the Paragon/Renegade system was perfect, but it did give the impression that you could play different types of Shepards, whereas with Ryder, all your answers to things are pretty much the same for all options. They don't have anything like charm or intimidate, hidden paragon/renegade responses, or any kind of interrupts, and there were definitely some occasions where I wish I would have had something. But honestly, I still just think Ryder is just the fall guy/girl for peoples' issues with the game, or people didn't like Ryder so they couldn;t get into the story in general. People who liked the game mostly liked Ryder, and people who didn't like the game didn't like Ryder. I haven't seen too many if any people saying yeah the game has a lot of issues but Ryder was an awesome protagonist.
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Post by Adhin on Apr 8, 2017 5:17:54 GMT
I don't know, I always felt connected to Shepard, and I just don't with Ryder. Maybe it has something to do with my perception that I made Shepard the kind of person I wanted to play and even when I played it multiple times and played Shepard totally different he was who I made him. With Ryder all my choices either seem pointless or I don't have the choices I want. With Ryder it seems like I am just along for the ride, like I am watching a movie and that I have no real control over him/her. Seems like I am in the minority here but it is how I feel. Yeah, I think a lot of that has to do with Shepard (and most of there past games) giving you clear differences in options that were ehh, lets say emotionally or morally opposites of each other. DAI and MEA lacked a good bit of that. I mean they definitely give you a few 'choices' that are opposites, or give you the opportunity to play a jerk or no-nonsense 'no, we're destroying this' or 'I don't care about the concequences, my way' like a Renegade Shepard. Issue for me (and I should say I loved the game regardless of this) is that they weren't very morally opposite. There all kinda morally, in general conversation, on the same line. Ryder is a boy/girlscout. You can be a Snarky one, you can be an emotional cry baby one, you can be an intellectual or professional one but holy shit your a damn scout MOST of the time. The only times they're not is when some situation decides they're not. So instead of it being a consistent through out the game represented in conversations it's just in a few moment to moments where you get to not be that super scout doin' their best. It's something BioWare has mentioned time and time again about how having bad choices, having that Renegade, having the angry and intimidating like options available is - regardless of if you choose them - makes the other options have more impact then they otherwise would. If Shepard could only be a 'renegade' in a few prompts, in major choices or a few side scenes but was Paragon ALL the other times it would of landed way, way differently then it did. So yeah that's why I think you may of had that issue, and one I had hoped they where veering away from due to DAI basically being the same thing. DAI had that in goddamn spades, but the 'tone icons' cropped up like 20% of the time. Rest of it was all confusing 'heres 3-4 options for progressing the conversation but they're just kinda all neutral or something I guess?". Felt super, super weird and that I wasn't able to direct the character how I wanted due to that. DA2, I felt, was the best evolution on there system they started with KoTOR they basically used for MET (just with different names for things). It gave you 3 very distinct ways to handle any response opposed to MET's 2 (with sometimes a neutral 3rd that was generally similar alternative to Paragon). I'm all for grey choices, but if all my conversation options are grey then it's all the same. Also, responding isn't a real choice-choice, it's just how your character 'is'. They need to be more distinct. Bring back DA2 style, Snarky hawke best hawke!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 7:06:21 GMT
I don't like the crappy 'life sucked cuz of dad's AI shit and ruined our family name' backstory. Nor do I like that my male Ryder was stuck watching a relay station and felt escaping to Andromeda was his only way to get away from it. It's fucking bullshit victim mindset and makes him a loser right out of the gate. There is no way that MY character that I want to create would have accepted that or needed to travel to andromeda to escape it. So I have to head cannon my way out of that shit. My Ryder went back to earth and served in the military for several years where nobody knew jack about his father contacted him. This also makes it highly logical for him to become a pathfinder because he's pushing 30 and was a Corporal with specialized tech skills. Will be basically the same thing when I roll a female Ryder but she will have served less time in the military, then studied archaeology in college which led to her job in prothean artifacts. I play them mostly logical and professional. I just can't have some sarcastic emotional nitwit being in charge of all this. I also hope to god that the tweak some of the dialogue for the next game so they sound a lot more together. At times, I cringe at stuff my character says.
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Sumerian Physics
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3/26/17: Pathfound something
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Post by Sumerian Physics on Apr 8, 2017 7:31:10 GMT
I'm not a badass space marine veteran who has seen dozens of instances of combat and won numerous commendations for my exploits on the battlefield. I have an easier time relating to a newbie who has done a couple of cool things here and there with space peace corps and has just enough experience to learn on the job without being killed. I liked Commander Shepard more but that doesn't mean they're relatable Btw "relatable" and "compelling" are not the same thing at all It wasn't so much that I couldn't relate to Shepard. Like I've said before, you can relate to someone's emotions and circumstances even if the situation they are in is one only found in fantasy It's hard to quite explain why Shepard didn't click with me the way Ryder did. It has nothing to do with their respective ages, though, that much I do know. I think part of it is that I had a hard time buying at times that Shepard could exist outside of their role and work as a soldier like, say, by having a personal interest unrelated to that field. I think that's part of why I like Ryder more: I can more easily see Ryder as someone who could have a life outside of their job and so exist more as an actual person. it didn't help that the trilogy had some odd writing turns for Shepard that should have been more acknowledged like the Sole Survivor background in Mass Effect. I'm not even going into how the auto-dialogue in Mass Effect 3 created character inconsistencies and how the lack of relationship mechanic retroactively created close relationships where none was before. I supposed I could say that Ryder feels more human than Shepard does and more a person. Like I said, it's a bit hard to explain but there is some of it, I think. Of the two, I found Ryder a more interesting character and that's even though Ryder lacked some of the dialogue options of the meaner variety that Shepard had. I supposed it may be that I found some of the options Ryder had were more meaningful like how you could select Ryder's motivation for coming along on the venture. I can't recall but in the OT, was there ever options to express Shepard's motivation for becoming a part of the Alliance? Actually that's what I think made Shepard more messiah than man (man in the sense of humanity, not literally male). How else could Shepard have become such a legendary soldier other than to be so consumed by their career as to appear as much a part of their ship as the bulkheads or engine core? I don't really buy Shepard existing outside of their work as a soldier and so those moments when you get a glimpse of Shepard's humor, doubt, internal strife you appreciate them as you would appreciate accessories to an outfit: the way they're placed and when they're used add just as much to their particularity as the material that surmises them and so they're that much more compelling and unique to the individual. Hope I'm making any sense. As for the main reason I liked Shepard more: I had more control over who I felt Shepard was. Even if a lot of it was headcannon, the games left a lot for the player to fill in on their own.
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