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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 18, 2017 19:32:27 GMT
I definitely liked that the Healing Classes were removed in DAI. The problem for me is, when you have a Healer Class in a game, they often become all-but-mandatory to have around as game balance will be built around their inclusion. And personally I find healers to be the most boring of all classes. I greatly prefer healing to be handled by consumables, regen, etc.. Something other than class abilities.
This was one of the reasons we did this in DAI though it didn't quite pan out as intended (there are a number of subtle reasons for that that I won't get in to). One of the other 'issues' it causes is that as soon as healing becomes 'all-but-mandatory' as you said you also run in to problems with the follower that has the heals. In DAO it was Wynne and in DA2 Anders - if you didn't want to take either of those people with you, your healing output suffered. With both Wynne and Anders the problem was that they were the only ones with group heal, which was insanely useful on some fights, so I did feel obligated to bring them on mages who didn't spec into spirit healer, or non-mage characters. Another problem -- and I realize this might only apply to me -- is that I greatly prefer to choose a spec for roleplay reasons, and not because I need to have it or whatever. Both spirit healer and blood mage have heavy roleplay implications with how those abilities manifest and for what they mean on a story level. I prefer to have the option of not taking those and not having it gimp my character too terribly if I decide to go with something else altogether.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 18, 2017 19:35:30 GMT
I definitely liked that the Healing Classes were removed in DAI. The problem for me is, when you have a Healer Class in a game, they often become all-but-mandatory to have around as game balance will be built around their inclusion. And personally I find healers to be the most boring of all classes. I greatly prefer healing to be handled by consumables, regen, etc.. Something other than class abilities.
This was one of the reasons we did this in DAI though it didn't quite pan out as intended (there are a number of subtle reasons for that that I won't get in to). One of the other 'issues' it causes is that as soon as healing becomes 'all-but-mandatory' as you said you also run in to problems with the follower that has the heals. In DAO it was Wynne and in DA2 Anders - if you didn't want to take either of those people with you, your healing output suffered. Yes, I recall a lot of people complaining that they HAD to bring along the healer. People moan over the lack of healing, but I personally thank the Maker I didn't have to bring, say, Solas everywhere. I don't particularly love any of the specializations enough to say, "Please bring X back!" But I'd love it if there was a Virtuoso specialization similar to ZITHER! in a future DA4 title. That might actually convince me to play a mage.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 18, 2017 19:55:18 GMT
Normally I'm not a healer type (for example I avoid healing classes like plague in MMOs), but I enjoyed being a healer a lot in both DAO and DA2. I realized that after we didn't have class like that in DAI. Even if I wasn't healer myself, I liked to have teammate dedicated to healing, either with reaaaaaally specified tactics or just so I could jump in to control them and heal however I want. Being able to do that made huge difference. For me at least. *cought* My two cents on that matter.And just to offer a contrasting view... I definitely liked that the Healing Classes were removed in DAI. The problem for me is, when you have a Healer Class in a game, they often become all-but-mandatory to have around as game balance will be built around their inclusion. And personally I find healers to be the most boring of all classes. I greatly prefer healing to be handled by consumables, regen, etc.. Something other than class abilities. And that's my 2 cp on the matter.
All that changed was you needed a mage for Barrier rather than for healing. And I found "health on kill effects even more important.
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Post by Wulfram on Apr 18, 2017 20:09:26 GMT
I like Champion, Duelist and Force Mage.
Its important to me that there be specialisations available that aren't too "dark" in tone. Also, I like Mage specialisations that basically just let me still be a regular Mage.
I like the concept of Shapeshifter but it'd need a totally different implementation. Generally I'm not keen on trying to turn a mage into a tank - if they have to "multi-class" I'd rather go for an Arcane Trickster type.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 18, 2017 20:50:33 GMT
I definitely liked that the Healing Classes were removed in DAI. The problem for me is, when you have a Healer Class in a game, they often become all-but-mandatory to have around as game balance will be built around their inclusion. And personally I find healers to be the most boring of all classes. I greatly prefer healing to be handled by consumables, regen, etc.. Something other than class abilities.
This was one of the reasons we did this in DAI though it didn't quite pan out as intended (there are a number of subtle reasons for that that I won't get in to). One of the other 'issues' it causes is that as soon as healing becomes 'all-but-mandatory' as you said you also run in to problems with the follower that has the heals. In DAO it was Wynne and in DA2 Anders - if you didn't want to take either of those people with you, your healing output suffered. For me, DA2 was the opposite. I thought I needed Anders. But when I unexpectedly kicked him out of Kirkwall in Act 2 (I'd played before, so I wasn't expecting him to actually... leave), combat suddenly got easier. I was forced to fill his slot with someone more useful. That still points to the fundamental issue with healers, though. Either they're necessary (due to unavoidable damage) or they're deadweight. If the healer isn't required, why would I take them instead of someone who has better killing/buffing/debuffing skills? Healing just prolongs the fight; killing, buffing, or debuffing brings me closer to winning it. So the healer is either a required party member, or a permanently benched one.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 18, 2017 21:02:05 GMT
That still points to the fundamental issue with healers, though. Either they're necessary (due to unavoidable damage) or they're deadweight. If the healer isn't required, why would I take them instead of someone who has better killing/buffing/debuffing skills? Healing just prolongs the fight; killing, buffing, or debuffing brings me closer to winning it. So the healer is either a required party member, or a permanently benched one. They were always deadweight outside of MMO raids from my experience. They exist because some people like to playing them, which isn't a bad reason to have something in a game... in DAI these people were stuck casting barriers...which isn't that entertaining.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 18, 2017 21:17:39 GMT
That still points to the fundamental issue with healers, though. Either they're necessary (due to unavoidable damage) or they're deadweight. If the healer isn't required, why would I take them instead of someone who has better killing/buffing/debuffing skills? Healing just prolongs the fight; killing, buffing, or debuffing brings me closer to winning it. So the healer is either a required party member, or a permanently benched one. They were always deadweight outside of MMO raids from my experience. They exist because some people like to playing them, which isn't a bad reason to have something in a game... in DAI these people were stuck casting barriers...which isn't that entertaining. I don't really see the distinction. Instead of restoring Hit Points, you're giving them temporary Hit Points. It's just managing the resource slightly differently.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 18, 2017 22:35:12 GMT
That still points to the fundamental issue with healers, though. Either they're necessary (due to unavoidable damage) or they're deadweight. If the healer isn't required, why would I take them instead of someone who has better killing/buffing/debuffing skills? Healing just prolongs the fight; killing, buffing, or debuffing brings me closer to winning it. So the healer is either a required party member, or a permanently benched one. They were always deadweight outside of MMO raids from my experience. They exist because some people like to playing them, which isn't a bad reason to have something in a game... in DAI these people were stuck casting barriers...which isn't that entertaining. Depends which MMO I guess. I love playing a healer or, to be more exact, a proper support role (with heals, buffs/debuffs, resource generation, crowd control and synergies/combos) and nobody in Elder Scrolls Online goes anywhere where the content is half-challenging without heals, even if they can risk it without a tank. Since the class system in ESO is flexible though, I can just change abilities, equip different gear, switch up points and attributes and my heals becomes perfectly viable DPS or tank (or can just go hybrid). I think it'd be nice if any class or companion had abilities/access to weapons that would change them into healer/support without necessarily sticking to a few select characters, and either make it so everyone in the party can throw a heal or a buff and keep each other healed, or just assign a healer/support spec to character we select.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 18, 2017 23:51:47 GMT
I definitely liked that the Healing Classes were removed in DAI. The problem for me is, when you have a Healer Class in a game, they often become all-but-mandatory to have around as game balance will be built around their inclusion. And personally I find healers to be the most boring of all classes. I greatly prefer healing to be handled by consumables, regen, etc.. Something other than class abilities.
This was one of the reasons we did this in DAI though it didn't quite pan out as intended (there are a number of subtle reasons for that that I won't get in to). One of the other 'issues' it causes is that as soon as healing becomes 'all-but-mandatory' as you said you also run in to problems with the follower that has the heals. In DAO it was Wynne and in DA2 Anders - if you didn't want to take either of those people with you, your healing output suffered. I actually played a healer sometimes for expressly this reason.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 18, 2017 23:59:42 GMT
Normally I'm not a healer type (for example I avoid healing classes like plague in MMOs), but I enjoyed being a healer a lot in both DAO and DA2. I realized that after we didn't have class like that in DAI. Even if I wasn't healer myself, I liked to have teammate dedicated to healing, either with reaaaaaally specified tactics or just so I could jump in to control them and heal however I want. Being able to do that made huge difference. For me at least. *cought* My two cents on that matter.And just to offer a contrasting view... I definitely liked that the Healing Classes were removed in DAI. The problem for me is, when you have a Healer Class in a game, they often become all-but-mandatory to have around as game balance will be built around their inclusion. And personally I find healers to be the most boring of all classes. I greatly prefer healing to be handled by consumables, regen, etc.. Something other than class abilities. And that's my 2 cp on the matter.
I support the contrasting view. In Dragon Age: Origins we hear from an alienage elf that magical healing is 'expensive' and they wouldn't waste it on an elf. But then we have healing potions everywhere and - I think - 3 or 4 abilities that instantly restores health to an individual or the entire team. I am all for mage classes that can buff team-mates and protect them from harm (barrier etc), but actually instantly recovering already lost health should be limited (in my view, anyway) to potions (and I liked the limitations placed on those in DA:I, despite thinking I wouldn't ahead of playing it).
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 19, 2017 0:47:13 GMT
They were always deadweight outside of MMO raids from my experience. They exist because some people like to playing them, which isn't a bad reason to have something in a game... in DAI these people were stuck casting barriers...which isn't that entertaining. I don't really see the distinction. Instead of restoring Hit Points, you're giving them temporary Hit Points. It's just managing the resource slightly differently. I agree, but I can see the POV where that slight difference is a big psychological one. Barrier puts more emphasis on anticipating damage rather than reacting to it, due to the decay (guard, meanwhile, might as well be real hp, but the ability to supply guard for someone else is more restricted than for barrier). Now, technically healing real hp is about anticipating damage too, because you might want to prioritize other things rather than healing lost health right away. So you only heal when you believe a foe will soon knock out that health. But there can be an emotional difference between avoiding damage and mending the same amount. While I personally don't see the value in healers because I tore out my heart and stuffed it with pocket calculators, I can see the value people might get from them. Besides, there are plenty of non-healer classes that I don't bring with me because of various combat annoyances. As long as a certain class is weaker than the baseline, rather than stronger to the point of being mandatory, it's no different than the other specs that I bring only to do their personal quests.
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Post by Soulforge on Apr 19, 2017 1:26:08 GMT
I want to see Reaver back closer to its DA2 incarnation, one of my favorite RPG class implementations next to Mass Effect's Vanguard. I hated Dragon Rage for its animation and button mashing nature. When I play a damage inclined warrior class, I want to use my weapon, not sheathe it in favor of magical claws.
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Post by Rascoth on Apr 19, 2017 8:19:55 GMT
I am all for mage classes that can buff team-mates and protect them from harm (barrier etc), but actually instantly recovering already lost health should be limited (in my view, anyway) to potions (and I liked the limitations placed on those in DA:I, despite thinking I wouldn't ahead of playing it). If we get properly build specialization/skill tree for it, I'm all for not getting heals, but what you proposed here. DAI lacked a lot when it came to building proper support character. I admit, while DAO overdid support/healer role a bit, it had some cool spell choices, that could easily belong in spec focusing on support only, without any healing. I would happily welcome elemental weapon spells back as an alternative for those, that forget to swap weapons for the ones with right runes... I'm not among them of course... I... who am I kidding...
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 19, 2017 12:48:27 GMT
Shapeshifter is something I would like to see back, but it's a hard thing to do right.
In DAO, the forms just ended up being worse at everything than what companions could already do and weren't worth losing the versatility of the mage's spell casting in a battle.
Of course, make them too effective and it's hard to see how the shapeshifter won't become an obviously superior spec if they're the best at everything.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 19, 2017 13:16:20 GMT
Still waiting for the templar spec to actually counter magic. Dispelling buffs isn't good enough.
Eh, to each their own. Dragon claws are freaking badass.
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 19, 2017 14:48:12 GMT
Still waiting for the templar spec to actually counter magic. Dispelling buffs isn't good enough. Eh, to each their own. Dragon claws are freaking badass. While I can understand why some people may not like having to put away their cool toys to use this power, I also loved the Dragon Rage attacks. Tamar was one of my favs in MP.
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Post by Rascoth on Apr 19, 2017 14:51:51 GMT
Still waiting for the templar spec to actually counter magic. Dispelling buffs isn't good enough. Eh, to each their own. Dragon claws are freaking badass. While I can understand why some people may not like having to put away their cool toys to use this power, I also loved the Dragon Rage attacks. Tamar was one of my favs in MP. Playing her and Luka was so much fun!
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 19, 2017 15:06:01 GMT
While I can understand why some people may not like having to put away their cool toys to use this power, I also loved the Dragon Rage attacks. Tamar was one of my favs in MP. Playing her and Luka was so much fun! I kinda have a love/hate relationship with Luka. Firstly... happy splody death gems for everyone! But get two or more in your run... h-a-p-p-y 1-f-p-s f-o-r e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e! :sob:
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Post by Rascoth on Apr 19, 2017 15:19:40 GMT
Playing her and Luka was so much fun! I kinda have a love/hate relationship with Luka. Firstly... happy splody death gems for everyone! But get two or more in your run... h-a-p-p-y 1-f-p-s f-o-r e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e! :sob: I love Luka despite Elemental Mines being bugged as hell in later patches. Though I'm certain it's my love for anything/anyone that can cause things to shatter speaking through me
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 19, 2017 20:12:17 GMT
I want warriors to be able to use ranged weapons (Sten made a great archer). Alternatively, I want warriors to be optional.
You didn't ever need a warrior in DAO, and that's one of the strengths of the game. Then DA2 prioritized tanking by changing how the combat worked (Dex-tanks stopped being a thing, and large-scale crowd control options disappeared), and DAI's level design basically forced us to have one of each class with us all the time.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 19, 2017 21:10:35 GMT
I want warriors to be able to use ranged weapons (Sten made a great archer). Alternatively, I want warriors to be optional. You didn't ever need a warrior in DAO, and that's one of the strengths of the game. Then DA2 prioritized tanking by changing how the combat worked (Dex-tanks stopped being a thing, and large-scale crowd control options disappeared), and DAI's level design basically forced us to have one of each class with us all the time. I played DA2 "all the way" with 4 rogues on normal (3 rogue + 1 warrior until Sebastian was acquired asap in act 2) and they shredded everything faster and didn't die more often than any "balanced party" I played in that game. Force Mage has plenty of large scale crowd control and Warrior has Tremor (upgraded for more CC) too. Although, I don't say no at a ranged Warrior tree...
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 19, 2017 23:08:22 GMT
I played DA2 "all the way" with 4 rogues on normal (3 rogue + 1 warrior until Sebastian was acquired asap in act 2) and they shredded everything faster and didn't die more often than any "balanced party" I played in that game. Force Mage has plenty of large scale crowd control and Warrior has Tremor (upgraded for more CC) too. Although, I don't say no at a ranged Warrior tree... Didn't die? I played DAO on Hard with 3 Mages and a Rogue and routinely didn't even take damage. Sure, Blood Wound made that easy, but that was late game. You could also do it with Paralysis Explosion (which was available by the time you faced the Ogre in the Tower of Ishal) or even just a Glyph of Repulsion at a bottleneck with an AoE DoT behind it. That said, I didn't spend much time experimenting with DA2 because I just didn't enjoy the design. The way they eliminated missing and replaced it with glancing blows (that did less damage at higher difficulties) really broke friendly fire. I did like how warrior AoE abilities had friendly fire, but I would have liked that more if I had had better control of my warriors' facing.
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Post by phoray on Apr 19, 2017 23:21:17 GMT
Staff with blades as a weapon- both for non mages and mages during cool downs. The constant pew pew is lame.
Blood mage with reactivity Keeper for Elves. Arcane Warrior type. Healing mage
I honestly disliked all of the mage specs in DAI but that may be related to a couple of things. the same attack animations over and over. Also a spec that depends on Rifts doesn't make sense in a rift free world? Maybe just te lore about each one was pretty sparse- KE, which was just a renamed Arcane Warrior with none of the benefits,was the only one with an interesting story. I thought Necromancer would be like Diablo (ha) and was disappointed.
Bring back magical buffs like Electric/frost weapons.
Loved DA2 rogue attack animations way more than DAI. maybe it's camera angle but I just find watching my characters battle in DAI are boring. Perhaps more jumping rolling dancing- graceful duelist acrobatics rogues.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 0:19:54 GMT
Staff with blades as a weapon- both for non mages and mages during cool downs. The constant pew pew is lame. Blood mage with reactivity Keeper for Elves. Arcane Warrior type. Healing mage I honestly disliked all of the mage specs in DAI but that may be related to a couple of things. the same attack animations over and over. Also a spec that depends on Rifts doesn't make sense in a rift free world? Maybe just te lore about each one was pretty sparse- KE, which was just a renamed Arcane Warrior with none of the benefits,was the only one with an interesting story. I thought Necromancer would be like Diablo (ha) and was disappointed. Bring back magical buffs like Electric/frost weapons. Loved DA2 rogue attack animations way more than DAI. maybe it's camera angle but I just find watching my characters battle in DAI are boring. Perhaps more jumping rolling dancing- graceful duelist acrobatics rogues. How I forget Keeper spec! I liked it. And would be nice druid-kind elven spec with shapeshifter (with better and more useful development) and spirit healer, for example.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 20, 2017 1:58:27 GMT
I want warriors to be able to use ranged weapons (Sten made a great archer). Alternatively, I want warriors to be optional. You didn't ever need a warrior in DAO, and that's one of the strengths of the game. Then DA2 prioritized tanking by changing how the combat worked (Dex-tanks stopped being a thing, and large-scale crowd control options disappeared), and DAI's level design basically forced us to have one of each class with us all the time. I don't know that I necessarily agree with the bolded part. Maybe early game this is true, but once you get masterwork crafting available (for guard on hit) and a rift mage with Stone fist (for breaking physical barriers) you could quite happily play on nightmare with 2 rogues and 2 mages. Or at least, that is what I've found. Alternatively, two warriors and two rogues (ranged) if you've (again) got guard on hit crafted materials for the rogues (or I forget - is it war horn or horn of valor that gives guard?) About the only class where you miss something by not having one there is rogue and all that you miss is not being able to open locks. Edit - but yes, warriors should be able to use ranged weapons.
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