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Post by jeyl on Apr 11, 2017 4:18:57 GMT
Before I begin, let me just say greetings, thanks for letting me post on this forum and I hope my contributions work out. Now without further ado, Is anyone getting a little tired of the whole "Humanity is Special" trope that BioWare seems to have made the defacto story telling device for Mass Effect? Ever since Mass Effect 3 declared in it's advertising campaign that we should "Take Back Earth", it looked like the franchise was starting to go in the wrong direction. I mean, seriously. They made Earth, the one world we never visited or even cared about in the first two Mass Effect games is going to be the focus of a galaxy wide conflict? And let's not forget the extended ending that made humanity the dominate species in the galaxy by giving Earth THE WHOLE FREAKING CITADEL. Yeah. That one place that no single alien race laid claim in order to function as a galactic government, now belongs to Humanity. So not only was the Illusive Man right about being able to control the Reapers, his plan to make Humanity the dominant species worked after all! Yay...? So now on to Mass Effect: Andromeda. A game that promised a new start, a new slate of characters and a whole new galaxy to explore! The possibilities regarding where this game could go are pretty much limitless given that nothing, and I mean NOTHING you did in the Mass Effect trilogy carries over into this one. So does this mean we can play as a different species like the Asari or Turians ect? Since four species are going to Andromeda on their own separate Arks, it would be a pretty cool "Dragon Age: Origins" situation where you start off in one unique location that eventually branches off into the story that all choices would come to. And what better way to broaden and expand the alien races that make Mass Effect unique than to take advantage of that opportunity? Well, according to Mac Walters from this Polygon.com interview, Asari, Turians, Solarians ect. cannot dream. They are hollowed things that lack everything that makes humanity great. Cripes, even Alec's mission statement on this 'multi-race' initiative seems to confirm this. Now, the omission of the other Arks, which by the way Alec Ryder believes are the last of their species when they arrive, could be looked at as mere oversight. But there are several points that would suggest otherwise. - The Ark Hyperion is more than capable of reaching the Nexus when everyone wakes up, but Alec insists on going to a visibly dangerous planet in order to gain a foot hold.
- One of Alec's motivations for creating an AI is so that Humanity can have an advantage over the other alien races.
- Alec continued to upgrade SAM by himself and never shared these upgrades with any of the other alien Pathfinders.
- Alec doesn't even contemplate about informing Castis about the Initiative that could save him and his family from the Reaper threat.
And that's just Alec. What about Sara and Scott? With the exception of some moments where you can have the characters chastise a whole freaking race for one person's actions, they're actually pretty decent. It's not until the climax of the main quest starts that things start to become very problematic. For some unexplained reason, the Ryder kids are able to interface with the Remnant technology without the aid of Sam. How is this possible? What's worse is that other characters like Peebee, who has a much broader understanding of how the Remnant technology actually works doesn't even know what to do. It's like they set up this character to do something important involving this very technology, and when the moment arrives for the pay off, they give it to the human who doesn't know jack. It's a real character robbing moment all for the sake of that bloody trope. Oh, and remember that bit about ME3's extended ending and how it gave the Citadel to Humanity, effectively making them the dominant species in the galaxy? Good, because Meridian is essentially making Humanity the gods of Andromeda and EVERYONE is a-ok with it. This is not some typical planet we're talking about here. It's a facility that's capable of changing the living conditions of ALL the planets that the Initiative races and Angarans live on. How could any of the alien races, including the Angara allow this? If anything, shouldn't Meridian serve as the new Nexus for all species to inhabit and run things? Meridian is too big of a deal to simply allow one race to lay claim to it simply because their Ark crashed there. It's also the only world that isn't being attacked by the Ket, pirates, exiles ect. Not even the Nexus itself has decent security given how easily the Archon was able to hijack the Hyperion. So, "Humanity is Special". Anyone else have thoughts on this? Is this really what you want Mass Effect to be about in the end? I mean, I like humanity and all, I just don't feel comfortable about saying we're the best when there are other races that should clearly have more say.
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Post by zeowik on Apr 11, 2017 5:00:55 GMT
I don't think it by default makes anything bad to follow this trope but it's nice when it's subverted. Guild Wars 2 turns it on its head: humanity is not the center of the universe. The dominant factions of the Charr, which were primarily primitive shamanistic antagonists in the first game, rebelled and focused on technological advancement rather than magic. It was the Charr, not humans, that invented the printing press in Guild Wars 2, and pretty much all mechanical technology is based on or an inferior implementation of Charr technology. For that matter the Asura, which would fit the Gnome trope, are experts on the arcane but officially their understanding of physical technology is inferior to the Charr (a couple hundred years inferior if NPC banter is to be believed). There are more races/factions than that in the lore but the point is humanity isn't at the center of advancement and has actually declined since the first game, sandwiched between a bunch of different nations. Really they snubbed tropes on purpose making that game, for example the hive mind-like race are rodents rather than insects, etc. That's not to say the lore of that game isn't filled with some clichés too of course.
I wonder how many other examples there are of humans not being the center of the universe in fiction/games. I remember my brother claiming they couldn't make a Babylon 5 prequel because humans weren't in space and supposedly audiences can only relate to humans, a view point which really embraces the worst of sectarian tendencies of humanity in my opinion.
I'm not saying I think they should move in such a direction for Mass Effect (I especially would not want single player development to be axed to focus on an MMORPG), but I agree it can be interesting.
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Post by DayusMakhina on Apr 11, 2017 5:13:54 GMT
Honestly I think a lot of what you've written, although interesting, misses the mark completely.
Key points being:
This isn't true. His mission statement is focused around humanity because he is the human Pathfinder. If by chance we were able to play as an Asari/Turian/Salarian that same scene would play out exactly the same way except they'd be talking about a new home for their race... remember Alec Ryder's job is to find a home for humanity, not other species. Their own Pathfinders do that.
Don't recall the first bit coming up in game but I could be wrong, as for the second: of course he wasn't going to share his SAM upgrades with other Pathfinders. His research was well beyond what was acceptable in the ME universe and thus making it public just how far he went with SAM would have been incredibly dangerous.
Muscle memory. Repeat a task enough times and you'll become accustomed to it. SAM was causing it before but his body still recalls how and thus he's able to do it, to detriment of himself. Sounds quite logical to me. Works the same way as the Angara on Havarl did it using the memory of his ancestor.
Humanity staking claim to Meridian is kinda unavoidable considering the Hyperion crashed there and cannot function anymore. That said, if you talk to Keri after the game she asks you about Meridian being the new home for humanity and you can explicitly state that it's not, it's not just for humanity it's for everyone. It just happens to be that theres only humanity there at the moment because of the Archon.
That said, the fact that the planet is a facility capable of changing the living conditions of all planets is somewhat of a moot point when it appears that only one person is capable of using that facility, and the fact that a human used the facility to make every world more liveable for everybody else would lead to a lot of good grace in that regards.
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Post by qwib on Apr 11, 2017 5:17:18 GMT
Doesn't bother me. The question is why you try to make this an Bioware exclusive problem.
Star Trek has Jean-Luc Picard... is he a human... I can't remember! Star Wars has Luke Skywalker... is he human? I can't remember. This isn't a Bioware problem, this is a Sci-Fi problem.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 11, 2017 5:42:53 GMT
I would say its not actually that humanity is special at all.
In OT it seemed to be that the Protheans were special. Including the Reapers seeing their potential and keeping them around.
It was the Protheans saving us from the Reapers time and time again. From the beacons to the conduit to Prothean knowledge stored in everything from beacons to VI's Mars, intelligent plant life.
Same here with the remnant.
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Post by aimingtolove on Apr 11, 2017 6:11:08 GMT
Oh, and remember that bit about ME3's extended ending and how it gave the Citadel to Humanity, effectively making them the dominant species in the galaxy? Good, because Meridian is essentially making Humanity the gods of Andromeda and EVERYONE is a-ok with it. This is not some typical planet we're talking about here. It's a facility that's capable of changing the living conditions of ALL the planets that the Initiative races and Angarans live on. How could any of the alien races, including the Angara allow this? If anything, shouldn't Meridian serve as the new Nexus for all species to inhabit and run things? Meridian is too big of a deal to simply allow one race to lay claim to it simply because their Ark crashed there. It's also the only world that isn't being attacked by the Ket, pirates, exiles ect. Not even the Nexus itself has decent security given how easily the Archon was able to hijack the Hyperion. So, "Humanity is Special". Anyone else have thoughts on this? Is this really what you want Mass Effect to be about in the end? I mean, I like humanity and all, I just don't feel comfortable about saying we're the best when there are other races that should clearly have more say. In addition to talking to Keri about this very issue, you get to choose the interim ambassador. If you choose an ambassador such as the Moshae, the Nexus leaders comment on giving up certain influence and power. This in addition to Keri's interview work to distance the game (though maybe not enough) from its "humanity is special" trope.
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Post by zarrokhai on Apr 11, 2017 6:18:31 GMT
Tbh seeing as it was a human who ended the Reaper threat and a human who ended the archon threat, it's not surprising that humanity has more say than the other species. Not saying no other race helped, but it was a human at the front and center. Besides, back in the OT I always got the feeling that the Asari were treated as the special ones. They were the most advanced race, treated specially even by the protheans, Liara was the only companion from the first game who couldnt die until the end of the third game. Humans were like the new kid in the block. They were out to prove themselves to every othet race.
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 11, 2017 7:10:12 GMT
Eh, from my perspective it's one of a few things MEA did better than OT. For the most part it was pretty tame.
It's more of "Plot demands me to die as soon as possible" on his part.
He's an old xenophobic man. Age and xenophobia often go along for some reason.
He did it out of selfish reasons, for Ellen to be specific.
Some people say there is one dialogue line about Sam making some permanent changes to Ryder's brain which allow that, but I've missed it myself, so I leave it as it is. Anyway it's not human specific, but rather human version of Sam specific. Vorcha wouldn't do any worse with Ryder's Sam.
Ah, that troubled me too. Suddenly on last mission the game went rampant on "humanity's home", made me question what happened with remaining 75% of Initiative. Still it sorta redeems itself if you talk with people afterwards. All species are pretty much invited there, even angara, and Port Meridian belongs to Nexus, not just humans.
So I'll hold my judgment for now, MEA's story isn't even complete at the moment
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Post by iTz JoNeSy on Apr 11, 2017 7:24:12 GMT
Interesting read.. However, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a soft looking alien running the show. I'm a human you know? Therefore, I want humans to run the show. The citadel will still serve as the galactic government. It's above earth because it can't be moved back to where the reapers dragged it from. It can't travel or use the relays. Nobody knows how it was moved in the first place. 🤔
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 11, 2017 7:43:36 GMT
I don't mind the trope happening.
But its gotten to the point where I have quick eye rolls. And increasing desire for the idea of playing other games which have same priority, except for other species in the MEU.
The level of human centric storytelling is indeed throughout scifi. But personally I appreciate and enjoy when the focus can shift around - humanity and its story always a part of things (sometimes in creative ways like events after their extinction), but more acknowledgement of the world beyond humanity than Mass Effect gives.
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Post by bizantura on Apr 11, 2017 10:56:14 GMT
Humanity = special, so no trope. I have problems with factions within humanity that think they are more special with more rights and wants until death than it is nirvana nihilism.
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Post by vyndral on Apr 11, 2017 11:01:23 GMT
Just a small point I guess that isn't very clear. Isnt the Ark stuck in the scourge when they go down to Habitat 7? I know Alec and Dunn disagree on what needs to happen. They do say something about being stopped in their tracks and Alec gives his marooned speech, but I don't recall if they specifically say they are stuck. But when Ryder wakes up after and is pushed for a plan on what to do next, the first thing she ask is Hyperion still stuck in the scourge. And she is told no. Whatever her dad did freed the ark.
So while I guess they could shuttle to the Nexus, the Ark wasn't getting there.
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Post by Ianamus on Apr 11, 2017 11:08:53 GMT
Mass Effect 2 was the biggest offender in this regard, it's not something that started in ME3.
Andromeda not only toned it down but also retroactively fixed some of the issues presented in 2, so I think it handled the issue fine.
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Post by cheeseandonion on Apr 11, 2017 11:26:00 GMT
Well yea, we're the best. He's an old xenophobic man. Age and xenophobia often go along for some reason. His first experience with alien filth is them attacking humanity for no reason, invading their colonies - also for no reason - then refusing to pay the interest on the reparation for all the people they killed (for no reason). Why his plan wasn't to secretly arm the human ark to the teeth to shit fury all over non-human sub-humans is beyond me.
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Post by CTPhipps on Apr 11, 2017 11:48:16 GMT
There's a LOT to unpack at this.
The first thing is where this whole alien-centrism stuff is coming from. The idea we're supposed to magically look out for all alien races equally is kind of awful because they aren't looking out for their races. You aren't a Specter this time, ostensibly employed by the Council for all races, you are SPECIFICALLY EMPLOYED as the human Pathfinder.
Also, the Asari, Turians, and other races are all working for their benefit.
Where's the idea this is WRONG coming from?
Yeah, humanity first but that doesn't mean it's bad or you can't work for everyone else too.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 11, 2017 12:25:40 GMT
Humanity is special. We're the greatest species in the universe. No other species comes close.
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Post by jeyl on Apr 11, 2017 12:49:55 GMT
Doesn't bother me. The question is why you try to make this an Bioware exclusive problem. Star Trek has Jean-Luc Picard... is he a human... I can't remember! Beleive me, Star Trek has a boat load of problems when it deals with that Trope and Picard is strangely the one who emphasizes it. Ever watch the episode "Hide and Q" from The Next Generation's first season? This is an actual quote from Picard when he's arguing with Q. Always wondered if Picard would openly say that to his non-human crew. That said, if you talk to Keri after the game she asks you about Meridian being the new home for humanity and you can explicitly state that it's not, it's not just for humanity it's for everyone. It just happens to be that theres only humanity there at the moment because of the Archon. I believe this was the actual exchange between Ryder and Keri. Both options clearly indicate that Maridian is the new home world to Humanity while the other option simply says that other species can come by and visit. Even the ship's description says it's pretty much humanity's home. ANALYSIS:A hollow sphere protecting a controlled and malleable environment, Meridian is a technological marvel. Hub for the vault network, and home to the growing center of human settlement in Heleus. The only safe world in Andromeda, all the technology to reshape worlds and Humanity is the only one who gets it all. But it's not all bad for other alien races. They can come and visit if they want to. I for one hope they take the time to visit the original Pathfinders quarters during their stay where they can see the arsenal that Alec used to kill other aliens with.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 11, 2017 13:56:21 GMT
Well, according to Mac Walters from this Polygon.com interview, I don't even... I always knew Mac was... I... agh
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Post by vyndral on Apr 11, 2017 14:13:23 GMT
Well, according to Mac Walters from this Polygon.com interview, I don't even... I always knew Mac was... I... agh I always thought it was strange the music in the launch trailer. People were going on about how perfect a choice it was, and just listen to the lyrics... Unless I'm missing something the chorus is basically, I'm only human, don't put the blame on me. Im only human don't put your blame on me... Well through the mass effect universe the humans are the driving force for change and big decisions. I dont mind since It is me making the choices, but as such, the song is way off the mark. The song basically says I'm only human. So don't expect much from me. And it isn't my fault, since I'm only human. I certainly don't want to play the character the song is singing about. They have no power, aren't important and are afraid to take responsibility for their actions. I am THE Commander Shepard. Ill make the tough call and deal with what happens. I am THE Human Pathfinder. The only Pathfinder not curled up in a ball hiding somewhere! (Don't tell Sarissa I said that) Im doing what needs to be done. Making the calls and living with them. I dont need some song making excuses for me. Telling me if I screw up it is ok, I'm only human after all. Hell no! I got shit to do! Ummm Paths to find? I think I may have gone a bit off track... what were we talking about again?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 11, 2017 14:24:59 GMT
Plenty of people made fun of it but who were we to say this wasn't a story about humanity before it came out?
In general Mac keeps saying shit that made me think this should be good before launch that simply don't ring true either because he's lying or because he's delusional. There's the thing with Mass Effect always being a human story. Wild, wild misconceptions there. He points out that ME1 was about humanity; true! then he points out that ME2 and 3 were also about humans because... err, because it's from a human POV so that's always been the DNA of the series? It sounds more like "It's about humanity because I say so" like the type of nonsense you'd hear the Catalyst say (because Mac talks, argues and writes like the Catalyst all the time... or Damon Lindelof). Then he also said that they made it more lighthearted and youthful so Ryder is a younger character than Shepard which means he grows over the course of the story and I'm sure he meant this story that we've already played now... where was that? Has he confused growth with leveling up? Shepard did that too. What's the difference?
Mac is just an idiot. Seriously, enough of him. He needs to quit.
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Post by vyndral on Apr 11, 2017 14:33:22 GMT
Plenty of people made fun of it but who were we to say this wasn't a story about humanity before it came out? In general Mac keeps saying shit that made me think this should be good before launch that simply don't ring true either because he's lying or because he's delusional. There's the thing with Mass Effect always being a human story. Wild, wild misconceptions there. He points out that ME1 was about humanity; true! then he points out that ME2 and 3 were also about humans because... err, because it's from a human POV so that's always been the DNA of the series? It sounds more like "It's about humanity because I say so" like the type of nonsense you'd hear the Catalyst say (because Mac talks, argues and writes like the Catalyst all the time... or Damon Lindelof). Then he also said that they made it more lighthearted and youthful so Ryder is a younger character than Shepard which means he grows over the course of the story and I'm sure he meant this story that we've already played now... where was that? Has he confused growth with leveling up? Shepard did that too. What's the difference? Mac is just an idiot. Seriously, enough of him. He needs to quit. They did show a some growth. Sort of. it is really right at the start. II have a bad meeting with the crew, and tell everyone I see I have no experience. Then I'm ordering people around and telling them they better listen because I'm the human Pathfinder. Not much of an arc I suppose. I dont really mind the human centric stuff since a lot of it is because your main character is human. And they end up being the badest of badasses. I would like to be an alien, but being human isn't so bad.
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Post by SpymasterZero on Apr 11, 2017 15:02:33 GMT
I, for one, welcome our new human overlords.
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Post by jeyl on Apr 11, 2017 15:06:31 GMT
Humanity is special. We're the greatest species in the universe. No other species comes close. .... I don't like where this is going. *checks your I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite playthrough in ME link* MY GOD mikefest, what have you done? You killed them all! You probably blew up the whole dang galaxy! If you want to make it more interesting kill her while wearing Cerberus armor. You cold blooded racist genocidal...
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Post by Rochrok on Apr 11, 2017 17:36:51 GMT
Mass effect has never had a "Humanity is special" trope. Mordin talks about human diversity but that's about it. It's the Asari who are the super special beings in the ME verse. Immortal, beautiful forever, smart, clever, powerful biotics, beautiful planet, ont he council, everyone falls in love with them and want them. Even the Protheans were grooming them.
So I don't mind the humanity first elements of the story. Why not? The PC is human. And I wouldn't want to play the game grovelling to a bunch of aliens.
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XBL Gamertag: DayusMakhina
PSN: DayusMakhina
Posts: 262 Likes: 371
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May 26, 2021 19:28:59 GMT
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DayusMakhina
It's phonetic.
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Jan 22, 2017 11:07:46 GMT
January 2017
dayusmakhina
Mass Effect Trilogy
DayusMakhina
DayusMakhina
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Post by DayusMakhina on Apr 11, 2017 17:47:53 GMT
That said, if you talk to Keri after the game she asks you about Meridian being the new home for humanity and you can explicitly state that it's not, it's not just for humanity it's for everyone. It just happens to be that theres only humanity there at the moment because of the Archon. I believe this was the actual exchange between Ryder and Keri. Both options clearly indicate that Maridian is the new home world to Humanity while the other option simply says that other species can come by and visit. Even the ship's description says it's pretty much humanity's home. ANALYSIS: A hollow sphere protecting a controlled and malleable environment, Meridian is a technological marvel. Hub for the vault network, and home to the growing center of human settlement in Heleus. The only safe world in Andromeda, all the technology to reshape worlds and Humanity is the only one who gets it all. But it's not all bad for other alien races. They can come and visit if they want to. I for one hope they take the time to visit the original Pathfinders quarters during their stay where they can see the arsenal that Alec used to kill other aliens with. You're skewing that statement to suit your agenda. Saying 'our allies will always be welcome' doesn't mean 'can come by and visit', considering the conversation is with regards to populating a planet/station it's not remotely unreasonable to perceive that the statement implies that allies would be welcome to settle on the planet too. It's only 'technically' humanity's planet because they are already there. Also, the fact that the analysis states that it's the home of a growing human settlement is also a moot point, because at the time of the game ending that is exactly what it is, just a human settlement.
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