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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 11, 2017 13:40:06 GMT
Time to start a new thread on this
I went back and played the original again after beating Andromeda, to see how much of my opinion regarding the original is accurate, how much is selective memory.
1. Combat. It holds up surprisingly well. I grant that it is very unbalanced and very unsmooth compared to all of its successor, but it works for me. The thing about the game is that the combat comes in short, high intense burst: each fire fight is incredibly violent and unpredictable, but they don't last very long and don't feel like a grind. The end result is a feeling of intensity that the sequels don't match.
This is what surprised me the most. I thought I will hate the combat parts of the game, but I didn't. I love it. As clumsy as it is, the game is paced well enough that I am not bothered at all. And when firefights do happen, it was just so much excitement.
2. Dialogue. I didn't realize before, but Shepard in the original doesn't say much. Not many auto dialogue in the original, almost everything Shepard says requires player input, and the way the VA delivers the line can feel out of place in the conversation. Shepard says "I should go" a lot, and often inappropriate to the conversation to the point of hilarity. In this respect, I think Ryder ends up coming off better since alot of what he say is auto dialogue, so at least his line are more coherent and aren't a bunch of chopped sentences.
NPCs tho, are way better in the original. NPCs in Andromeda act like they are in the sitcom, most of their character bits are so blatantly advertised as they shout their "character" at the player. NPCs in the original generally behave like normal individuals, and to the extent they have quirkiness are expressed more subtly and organically.
3. On PC at least, the UI didn't get in the way of player. I had somehow remembered how shitty the UI was, but it wasn't that bad. Customization of actually meaningful, I didn't feel like I was encumbered to arm and fit everyone for combat. I didn't really get why the developer thought it was necessary for the squad mate to have "unique" look. Maybe that's a marketing thing, I never have trouble telling my squads apart in ME1.
4. Decryption. I forgot that you needed a skill to open loot. I m mixed on this. On the one hand, it makes sense in lore, and gives tech specialization something to set it apart of the other classes. On the other hand, it forces you to use certain squad member. Still, it's nice to play as an engineer and feel like you are actually an engineer, instead of just a soldier who happen to use tech power. This also makes slapping omnigel on locks make sense in the setting, since its not anyone can defeat the lock with the stuff, you actually need the skill level to do that.
Anyway, these are the things that I completely forgot about original, and had rediscovered only recently. Since so many argument regarding andromeda revolves around how ME1 did things, I though it would be nice to go back and replay the game, and actually confirm my own opinion.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 11, 2017 13:51:08 GMT
The funny thing is I pretty much feel the opposite on all those points you do. I think Andromeda improved on a lot of the areas, I think the menu of Andromeda suffers mostly due to the crafting system that people kept saying "was mandatory for a RPG" since even the first game.
Now, I don't think Andromeda could get away with the shortcuts they did with the dialogue in Mass Effect 1 either since people like searching for flaws and they screaming as loud as they can about "Bioware being lazy" or some other such nonsense. An example would be the times of regardless of what you pick Shepard to say the lines of dialogue were exactly the same just with a different reward for picking that line. The other funny thing is there were complaints again with the dialogue of Mass Effect 1 about how the amount of dialogue you had to pick ruined the flow of conversations.
Its all about personal tastes so there isn't a one-size fits all solution for BioWare to pick and the more they try to find out the more it hurts their game development.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 11, 2017 14:09:31 GMT
I can recall both autodialogue lines in ME1 in my head.
"Normandy, the beacon is secure, the weapon-"
and
"Take us down joker. Lock in on the coordinates!"
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 11, 2017 14:11:09 GMT
The funny thing is I pretty much feel the opposite on all those points you do. I think Andromeda improved on a lot of the areas, I think the menu of Andromeda suffers mostly due to the crafting system that people kept saying "was mandatory for a RPG" since even the first game. Now, I don't think Andromeda could get away with the shortcuts they did with the dialogue in Mass Effect 1 either since people like searching for flaws and they screaming as loud as they can about "Bioware being lazy" or some other such nonsense. An example would be the times of regardless of what you pick Shepard to say the lines of dialogue were exactly the same just with a different reward for picking that line. The other funny thing is there were complaints again with the dialogue of Mass Effect 1 about how the amount of dialogue you had to pick ruined the flow of conversations. Its all about personal tastes so there isn't a one-size fits all solution for BioWare to pick and the more they try to find out the more it hurts their game development. On conversation, the player input in ME1 wasn't bad too me, I just feel Andromeda's way of presenting the player character makes the game more cinematic. I can understand people preferring both type of dialogue mechanics for different reasons. On the UI, I can only speak on the PC version, but even without crafting the andromeda UI is inferior. Most of the things you need to do in ME1 can be done by clicking, while Andromeda makes you use a bunch of different keys to select and confirm things.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 11, 2017 14:15:35 GMT
I can recall both autodialogue lines in ME1 in my head. "Normandy, the beacon is secure, the weapon-" and "Take us down joker. Lock in on the coordinates!" I m not saying they are absent. They are just a lot less common. Most pronounced in conversations. I mean Cutscene is still a cutscene, you less have input in those in any game.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 11, 2017 14:20:39 GMT
No, I wasn't correcting you, just pointing it out.
I think ME2 has the best balance of roleplaying via dialogue of any game. In ME3 they took the whole "interface for choice must be predictable" too literally so every choice became alligned with either paragon or renegade, completely unflexible and face-palm-worthy when you consider how ME3 incorporated Reputation to fix the Paragade issue, but ME2 kept it flexible depending on what the situation needed which MEA does too but the actual allignment for Paragon and Renegade vs neutral choices on the wheel were much more interesting than the tone-wheel in MEA. I don't mean the paragon/renegade system but the choices themselves.
Imagine if there was no rep system in the trilogy. Would people have complained as much about Paragon and Renegade then? I don't think so, because they got your virtuous Paragon decisions and the efficient and no-BS renegade choices and then Neutral for whenever you didn't care. It actually felt like choices as opposed to "I got this" vs "I'm a cocky bastard"
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 11, 2017 14:25:35 GMT
The funny thing is I pretty much feel the opposite on all those points you do. I think Andromeda improved on a lot of the areas, I think the menu of Andromeda suffers mostly due to the crafting system that people kept saying "was mandatory for a RPG" since even the first game. Now, I don't think Andromeda could get away with the shortcuts they did with the dialogue in Mass Effect 1 either since people like searching for flaws and they screaming as loud as they can about "Bioware being lazy" or some other such nonsense. An example would be the times of regardless of what you pick Shepard to say the lines of dialogue were exactly the same just with a different reward for picking that line. The other funny thing is there were complaints again with the dialogue of Mass Effect 1 about how the amount of dialogue you had to pick ruined the flow of conversations. Its all about personal tastes so there isn't a one-size fits all solution for BioWare to pick and the more they try to find out the more it hurts their game development. On conversation, the player input in ME1 wasn't bad too me, I just feel Andromeda's way of presenting the player character makes the game more cinematic. I can understand people preferring both type of dialogue mechanics for different reasons. On the UI, I can only speak on the PC version, but even without crafting the andromeda UI is inferior. Most of the things you need to do in ME1 can be done by clicking, while Andromeda makes you use a bunch of different keys to select and confirm things. I am not exactly sure what you are talking about with the UI then, for outside of trying to do things like inventory management and crafting it seems to be nearly identical as Mass Effect 1 from my perspective. The only difference that I can see with the PC version exclusively is the ability to drag and drop things onto your UI bar instead of having to set them. The using "different keys to select" is what people wanted for there was a lot of dislike of "one button for awesome" in Mass Effect 2 and 3.
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Post by myalzalean on Apr 11, 2017 14:36:28 GMT
I respectfully disagree about the combat holding up in ME1.
As much as people say MEA doesn't "feel" like a Mass Effect game I'd like to see their reaction if they took Charge and Tactical Cloak out of the game.
ME2 reinvented combat in the MET with the addition of the class specific special powers so much that ME1 combat doesn't even belong in the same category anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 14:57:10 GMT
Why... why is it time to start yet another new thread on this. Are the multitude of old threads on this "broken" in some way?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 14:59:02 GMT
The combat holds up? What combat? Run and hold left mouse button?
The combat is one of the reasons i really dislike replaying the first Mass Effect game. I know some people are into it just for the story and that is fair, but to me RPG's is as much about the combat as everything else.
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Post by Subtle on Apr 11, 2017 14:59:32 GMT
The main thing I remember about ME1 combat is that early game it wasn't very enjoyable. After you get to a certain level, the weapons take a gigantic leap in effectiveness and combat suddenly seemed balanced. I played it on both the Xbox360 and PC, I was left with the impression that the console version was somewhat easier than PC, no facts to back that.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 11, 2017 15:03:29 GMT
The main thing I remember about ME1 combat is that early game it wasn't very enjoyable. After you get to a certain level, the weapons take a gigantic leap in effectiveness and combat suddenly seemed balanced. I played it on both the Xbox360 and PC, I was left with the impression that the console version was somewhat easier than PC, no facts to back that. My guess is you might be thinking of the Spectre weapons you could buy starting at level 35 (I think). They were superior in every way compared to the other weapons, the first rank of those weapons were better then any of the Rank X versions of anything else you could use. It might have been easier on the consoles because of auto-aiming to help compensate for a controller, at least that is what I have found over the years when playing games on a console versus PC.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 15:04:07 GMT
I can recall both autodialogue lines in ME1 in my head. "Normandy, the beacon is secure, the weapon-" and "Take us down joker. Lock in on the coordinates!" And a ton of dialogue that might as well have been autodialogue... Like Shepard choosing between "A dream" and "A vision" or "A nightmare" only to say "I saw... I don't know what I saw... nothing's really clear. I saw synthetics, geth maybe, killing people, butchering them..." all in the same tone of voice and without ANY different reward for making one selection over the other and no difference in how the game plays out after that selection is made.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 11, 2017 15:10:07 GMT
I respectfully disagree about the combat holding up in ME1. As much as people say MEA doesn't "feel" like a Mass Effect game I'd like to see their reaction if they took Charge and Tactical Cloak out of the game. ME2 reinvented combat in the MET with the addition of the class specific special powers so much that ME1 combat doesn't even belong in the same category anymore. I specifically avoided comparing Combat system between games except of the end result of how I feel about them after playing. ME1 combat worked good enough for me on the replay, and is better than I remember it having been. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, but you can still conclude whether you like apple or orange, or both. And for the record not having tactical cloak didn't make the game un"masseffect", you just have to play the game differently. Also maybe I never played vanguard except in Multiplayer, so maybe you are right.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 11, 2017 15:14:33 GMT
The combat holds up? What combat? Run and hold left mouse button? The combat is one of the reasons i really dislike replaying the first Mass Effect game. I know some people are into it just for the story and that is fair, but to me RPG's is as much about the combat as everything else. Yep, that combat. I only do "Run and hold left mouse button" after my carefully laid plan blows up in my face, which happens often enough. Usually I try to have the right power combo ready to go before bursting into a room (dampen/overload/singularity). That's kinda of the charm, where 85% of time you OP everything, the rest ends in chaos or disaster. Again, I think its one of those things that are remembered to be bad, but actually wasn't as bad as imagined, as I found out on replay.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2017 15:14:48 GMT
I was playing ME1 recently too -- although since my PCIE slot just failed, looks like I won't be playing much of anything for a while. 1. Combat. It holds up surprisingly well. I grant that it is very unbalanced and very unsmooth compared to all of its successor, but it works for me. The thing about the game is that the combat comes in short, high intense burst: each fire fight is incredibly violent and unpredictable, but they don't last very long and don't feel like a grind. The end result is a feeling of intensity that the sequels don't match. At what difficulty level? I find that once enemies start spamming Immunity things can get quite grindy. I'm also not too happy with the way gameplay is all about stunlocking, or how poorly biotic powers interact with some of the levels -- put an enemy outside the combat area and you've got a problem, and this can happen to Shepard too. Not that the combat is bad, but I definitely feel the annoyances. We were talking about dialogue in another thread. I can see the case for going back to ME1's very restricted use of autodialogue. I was not very happy with ME1 squadmate convos. Too much info dumping. OTOH, I give the designers a pass on this because they had a lot of material to cover. Decryption was probably a vestige of the D&D combined-arms design approach; you need all classes in a party or you'll fail at something. The tech guy is your rogue.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 11, 2017 15:17:30 GMT
Why... why is it time to start yet another new thread on this. Are the multitude of old threads on this "broken" in some way? Why not, I think its more interesting than discussing gender politics stemming from ponouns usage in Asari culture.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 15:19:44 GMT
The main thing I remember about ME1 combat is that early game it wasn't very enjoyable. After you get to a certain level, the weapons take a gigantic leap in effectiveness and combat suddenly seemed balanced. I played it on both the Xbox360 and PC, I was left with the impression that the console version was somewhat easier than PC, no facts to back that. My guess is you might be thinking of the Spectre weapons you could buy starting at level 35 (I think). They were superior in every way compared to the other weapons, the first rank of those weapons were better then any of the Rank X versions of anything else you could use. It might have been easier on the consoles because of auto-aiming to help compensate for a controller, at least that is what I have found over the years when playing games on a console versus PC. The first set of Spectre weapons were not associated with XP Level, but unlocked whenever the PC obtained 1,000,000 credits. By doing Dr. Michel's quest and then selling weapons to her (and buying them back from any other merchant), that 1,000,000 credits could be built up prior to leaving the Citadel. Combat, however, on normal gets ridiculously easy after the first playthrough... because the enemies always spawn in the same patterns and in the same places... making the game easy to "memorize." Even on insanity, ME1 combat is now boring as hell to me... I have to do things like not level up weapons or armor or restrict myself to using only a shotgun or no weapons at all just to up the ante a little.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2017 15:19:47 GMT
I can recall both autodialogue lines in ME1 in my head. "Normandy, the beacon is secure, the weapon-" and "Take us down joker. Lock in on the coordinates!" And a ton of dialogue that might as well have been autodialogue... Like Shepard choosing between "A dream" and "A vision" or "A nightmare" only to say "I saw... I don't know what I saw... nothing's really clear. I saw synthetics, geth maybe, killing people, butchering them..." all in the same tone of voice and without ANY different reward for making one selection over the other and no difference in how the game plays out after that selection is made. I'm not certain this is bad design. The illusion of control is all that a lot of us really need; you're not going to know that there's no real choice there until you replay, and even then you need a good memory or a video. Intellectually, I prefer my designs to be honest, but this might be the value-maximizing approach.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 11, 2017 15:26:00 GMT
I was playing ME1 recently too -- although since my PCIE slot just failed, looks like I won't be playing much of anything for a while. At what difficulty level? I find that once enemies start spamming Immunity things can get quite grindy. I'm also not too happy with the way gameplay is all about stunlocking, or how poorly biotic powers interact with sone of the levels -- put a mandatory enemy outside the combat area and you've got a problem, and this can happen to Shepard too. Not that the combat is bad, but I definitely feel the annoyances. I think the medicine talent tree gives you nerve shock, which neutralize them till their power runs out. Otherwise I find biotic power like lift and throw can do similar things, and lastly but most importantly, Singularity, which probably breaks the game on any difficulty. So at least when I play, I don't feel much of a grind, since either me or the enemy usually die not long into first contact. The biotic stun locking is actually something I really miss, because it one of those things that spice up combat. That's one of the example of how poor balance can be fun, it introduces an element of unpredictability
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 15:29:03 GMT
Why... why is it time to start yet another new thread on this. Are the multitude of old threads on this "broken" in some way? Why not, I think its more interesting than discussing gender politics stemming from ponouns usage in Asari culture. Why not just add on to one of the older threads though?... save junking up the front page with multiple threads on the same topic and burying threads about specific bugs and workarounds and such.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 11, 2017 15:38:16 GMT
Yeah, the combat in the end of ME1 once you get all the good equipment becomes palpable. Trying to use the SR in the beginning before good stability mods is not fun.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 15:43:37 GMT
And a ton of dialogue that might as well have been autodialogue... Like Shepard choosing between "A dream" and "A vision" or "A nightmare" only to say "I saw... I don't know what I saw... nothing's really clear. I saw synthetics, geth maybe, killing people, butchering them..." all in the same tone of voice and without ANY different reward for making one selection over the other and no difference in how the game plays out after that selection is made. I'm not certain this is bad design. The illusion of control is all that a lot of us really need; you're not going to know that there's no real choice there until you replay, and even then you need a good memory or a video. Intellectually, I prefer my designs to be honest, but this might be the value-maximizing approach. Link said in one of his posts in this thread, however, that the choices offered different rewards... which is clearly not the case and it's using misinformation to grind the axe about autodialogue in the later games. The level of actual choice in ME3 was probably on par with ME1; and I would say ME2 had more concrete, character developing choices than either ME1 or ME3... although, I am still triggering a surprising number of differences in ME3. Yeah, we only have a choice of two items on the wheel... but the number of different lines that Shepard can deliver depending on how the player got to that point in the game is quite a bit higher than two. Making the same choice doesn't always deliver the same line. In ME1, it pretty much does - with Renegade vs. paragon Garrus being one of the few exceptions and the other being if you've decided on romancing Kaidan/Ashley or Liara (which changes their dialogue... predictably). Pretty simplistic compared to all the different versions of the dialogue you can have with Mordin over curing or not curing the genophage depending on whether or not Wrex or Wreav is in power, whether or not you saved or destroyed Maelon's data, whether or not you revealed the sabotage to Eve on the first go or the second or not at all... and we have an interrupt thrown in there that can change things around even more. In each case, the tension can build without having to weed through multiple layers of dialogue wheels providing only info dumps about the situation. Ironically, the most hated conversation in ME3 (the one with the Catalyst) is the one that, I think, is set up most like the conversations in ME1. I'm not against choice. They can insert more dialogue wheels... whatever their budget allows. Just please, Bioware, do not go back to the multi-tiered info-dump wheels and pseudo-choice wheels of ME1. They were truly horrible.
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Post by Thalandor on Apr 11, 2017 15:46:23 GMT
I remember from my first playthrough of ME1 that I didn't care that much for the squad mates by the end... that only came with the sequels. I like the squad mate in ME:A a lot more by comparison, after only just 1 game. They're very 1 dimensional, but so are most squad mates in Bioware games.
I do remember the awesome ending though, and how it was a cohesive game all by itself, despite being the first in a trilogy. In ME:A, they don't seem to resolve much of anything, we're left with so many open story lines... I hate that. I like conclusions...
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 11, 2017 16:13:12 GMT
I think the most important thing that Mass Effect Andromeda does, is highlight just how good the original trilogy was.
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