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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 11, 2017 20:39:03 GMT
A vid recently uploaded by Extra Credits where game animator Daniel Boyd explains what a conversation system is and what could've gone wrong with Mass Effect: Andromeda. The video clarified a few things for me so I decided to share it. His explanation on what a conversation system is is pretty easy to understand and he makes comparisons with Uncharted 4 and The Witcher 3.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 11, 2017 20:46:31 GMT
A vid recently uploaded by Extra Credits where game animator Daniel Boyd explains what a dialogue system is and what could've gone wrong with Mass Effect: Andromeda. The video clarified a few things for me so I decided to share it. His explanation on what a dialogue system is is pretty easy to understand and he makes comparisons with Uncharted 4 and The Witcher 3. Seriously how many threads on this?
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OdanUrr
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 11, 2017 20:47:17 GMT
Seriously how many threads on this? There was one already? I must've missed it. Let me search. EDIT: Yup, found it. Sorry, maybe a mod can delete it?
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 11, 2017 22:19:46 GMT
Interesting vid and very informative. Bottom line though, as he pointed out, is whatever the reason its bad, its just bad. Pointing fingers doesn't really change all that. Having it all fixed up nice and tidy 6 months from now doesn't really change that. Sadly all of us, Bioware included, will just have to live with My Face Is Tired and Ugly Sara memes forever now.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 11, 2017 23:33:37 GMT
Interesting vid and very informative. Bottom line though, as he pointed out, is whatever the reason its bad, its just bad. Pointing fingers doesn't really change all that. Having it all fixed up nice and tidy 6 months from now doesn't really change that. Sadly all of us, Bioware included, will just have to live with My Face Is Tired and Ugly Sara memes forever now. If anything, it will serve to encourage people not to buy on release and wait a few months in order to get a better, cheaper, experience.
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Post by armass81 on Apr 11, 2017 23:37:34 GMT
It may also remind Bioware not to push these things up again, unfinished.
Sadly it may not be up to them, as their EA overlords are pushing.
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OdanUrr
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 11, 2017 23:47:20 GMT
It may also remind Bioware not to push these things up again, unfinished. Sadly it may not be up to them, as their EA overlords are pushing. Agreed, but they started work on this pretty early, didn't they? As early as 2012 I think.
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 11, 2017 23:49:09 GMT
It may also remind Bioware not to push these things up again, unfinished. Sadly it may not be up to them, as their EA overlords are pushing. Agreed, but they started work on this pretty early, didn't they? As early as 2012 I think. Yeah, 5 year dev cycle with at least one extension or delay in there.
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OdanUrr
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 11, 2017 23:53:30 GMT
I'm curious as to why Edmonton didn't shoulder a much larger development burden seeing as they already had experience working with the Frostbite engine for DA:I.
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Post by armass81 on Apr 11, 2017 23:53:54 GMT
It may also remind Bioware not to push these things up again, unfinished. Sadly it may not be up to them, as their EA overlords are pushing. Agreed, but they started work on this pretty early, didn't they? As early as 2012 I think. Time is meaningless if the production or management is messy, they can waste a lot of time. Id say this game was made in 3 years max, maybe 2 when they had a somewhat coherent path for it. I think a lot of things changed or were changed, somethign was outsourced. I dont know the part of EAs messing into it, but theres gotta be some. They clearly ran out of time, or the development team was not on par with the tasks and expectations, or management just didnt care. I think somewhere it was said, it wasted them a year trying to make the planets more like in No Mans Sky. Then you had other problems, like staff and lead writer changing. Hence the story, that seems like all over the place.
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OdanUrr
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 11, 2017 23:55:03 GMT
Agreed, but they started work on this pretty early, didn't they? As early as 2012 I think. Time is meaningless if the production or management is messy, they can waste a lot of time. Id say this game was made in 3 years max, maybe 2 when they had a somewhat coherent path for it. I think a lot of things changed or were changed. I think somewhere it was said, it wasted them a year trying to make the planets more like in No Mans Sky. Then you had other problems, like staff and lead writer changing. I think you're probably right.
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Post by parnashwind on Apr 12, 2017 0:41:39 GMT
It is not the tools. Do you know that CDPR actually go through the procedural generated conversation scenes and change them if they feel that it is not good enough? That right there is quality control and polish. ME:A simply lacks that. It is like nobody actually check those scenes or they hired a blind person to check them.
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Post by timebean on Apr 12, 2017 2:05:15 GMT
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 2:55:39 GMT
Supposedly they spent a year trying to make parts of the game like No Man's Sky, before figuring out it wasn't going to work. I wonder whether that contributed to parts of the game feeling unpolished at release?
I'd also love to know whether that bad idea originated with management at Bioware or was forced on them by the publisher.
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Post by panzerwzh on Apr 12, 2017 6:23:48 GMT
Great video, thanks for sharing!
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Post by jf8350143 on Apr 12, 2017 6:40:11 GMT
They don't really have enough budget for a game this big. You can see they are trying to make a great game but couldn't.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Deana on Apr 12, 2017 7:13:55 GMT
I hope Bioware will never again outsource humans again. I don't know what they were thinking, the PC is human, why weren't the resources spent on them instead of environments and armor.
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Post by Pearl on Apr 12, 2017 8:57:24 GMT
I liked the work that BW Montreal put in on ME3 (entirety of multiplayer and the Omega DLC, for those who don't know), but I think it's patently obvious that they were not ready to take on an entire game from the ground up, considering that - to my knowledge - they have no prior experience with the Frostbite engine. I really can't understand why the torch was passed to them considering that Mass Effect is Bioware's most well-known IP; whether it was forced on them by EA, or whether Edmonton decided that their new IP needed 100% of their attention because it's going to be God's gift to video juegos, or something else entirely.
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Post by panzerwzh on Apr 12, 2017 11:29:30 GMT
It is not the tools. Do you know that CDPR actually go through the procedural generated conversation scenes and change them if they feel that it is not good enough? That right there is quality control and polish. ME:A simply lacks that. It is like nobody actually check those scenes or they hired a blind person to check them. In the modern gaming industry, in-house engine/tool is crucial. CDPR spent a lot of resources not only on dialogue animation but also RED ENGINE 2.0 itself. Bioware gave u the in-house engine development after NWN. So it gets back and haunt them ever since.
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Post by parnashwind on Apr 12, 2017 11:41:42 GMT
It is not the tools. Do you know that CDPR actually go through the procedural generated conversation scenes and change them if they feel that it is not good enough? That right there is quality control and polish. ME:A simply lacks that. It is like nobody actually check those scenes or they hired a blind person to check them. In the modern gaming industry, in-house engine/tool is crucial. CDPR spent a lot of resources not only on dialogue animation but also RED ENGINE 2.0 itself. Bioware gave u the in-house engine development after NWN. So it gets back and haunt them ever since. Actually Bioware is using Frostbite from DICE. A really good looking engine and a darn optimized one.... just that it is not designed for RPG. Yes, CDPR put a lot into the REDEngine and the procedural tools -but- they still check all the procedural generated conversation scenes and if they are not happy with the results, they spent time adjusting them. Tools are important yes but polish and quality control is more important for best product and user experience. You can have the best tools but if you dont have time or dont have people who gives a damn... no tool will save you.
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Post by NRieh on Apr 12, 2017 11:43:38 GMT
Yes. Right. Let's compare a CC-based PC (2 genders and several racial presets) game that has semi-openworld and fucking load of dialogues with a preset-PC streamlined rollercoaster-avdenture and a single male preset-PC 'open world' (which is not that big as some W3 fans make it sound)...not to mention that their Geralt looks like shit compared to the 'original' (which is Michał Żebrowski, The One and Only True Witcher, same true for the most of the CDPR cast).
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Post by panzerwzh on Apr 12, 2017 11:48:03 GMT
In the modern gaming industry, in-house engine/tool is crucial. CDPR spent a lot of resources not only on dialogue animation but also RED ENGINE 2.0 itself. Bioware gave u the in-house engine development after NWN. So it gets back and haunt them ever since. Actually Bioware is using Frostbite from DICE. A really good looking engine and a darn optimized one.... just that it is not designed for RPG. Yes, CDPR put a lot into the REDEngine and the procedural tools -but- they still check all the procedural generated conversation scenes and if they are not happy with the results, they spent time adjusting them. Tools are important yes but polish and quality control is more important for best product and user experience. You can have the best tools but if you dont have time or dont have people who gives a damn... no tool will save you. I agree, tools are crucial but not the only answer for product quality. The attitude of the developer is another key factor. Unfortunately, Bioware fails miserably in both regards. Frostbite is a very capable engine but only DICE could push it to the maximum, so I would not blame MEA's presentation to the engine is not for RPG really.
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OdanUrr
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 12, 2017 15:03:34 GMT
Yes. Right. Let's compare a CC-based PC (2 genders and several racial presets) game that has semi-openworld and fucking load of dialogues with a preset-PC streamlined rollercoaster-avdenture and a single male preset-PC 'open world' (which is not that big as some W3 fans make it sound)...not to mention that their Geralt looks like shit compared to the 'original' (which is Michał Żebrowski, The One and Only True Witcher, same true for the most of the CDPR cast). Um, have you watched the vid? 'cause that's kinda the point he makes about Uncharted 4.
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