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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 13, 2017 15:26:53 GMT
Well, I imagine a flight path can be plotted to account for the change of position.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 13, 2017 15:30:36 GMT
My understanding of relay corridors is that lightspeed communication is possible through them (it's how comm buoys work, after all) One could extrapolate that the corridor allows for instantaneous travel of information as well as matter. So the information gleaned on Heleus would be close to current. No more than a few years off, depending on where exactly the corridor comes out. The problem comes from how can such a corridor be formed without a relay on the other end? Logically, the Andromeda Initiative could have shaved 600 years off their trip simply by shotgunning themselves to Andromeda using this "telescope" But light isn't all matter. Also, google "How long does it take for light to hit the earth from the sun?" You'll honestly be surprised. I'm not against space magic for the availability of talking to someone. What I'm against is the use space magic because, hey, we can have space magic. And yet from the beginning, comm buoys have been able to transmit data through mass relays to keep Citadel space connected. Time lags stem from information going from relays to their destinations at light speed. Yes it's space magic, but as long as the space magic operates consistently, I don't mind too much. About eight and a half minutes *googles to check answer* Eight minutes. I was close. At any rate, we aren't just evaluating a single star, but an entire cluster of stars, and habitable worlds around said stars. Now it may be that there were close up examinations of these systems and worlds (in which case, why didn't they know about the angarans?) But a more "big picture" look would have had to have been taken at a number of light years away.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 13, 2017 15:37:15 GMT
Future? Is that a joke? If so, I missed it. So. Across the universe is the Andromeda galaxy, right? It's light is traveling at light speed to reach us, because it can't travel any faster than that. Now, if you are proposing that by looking through a Mass Effect relay (or rather, three of them) somehow gives you sight of about 634 years before we reach Andromeda, that leaves only one solution. A telescope that sees into the future. Got it now? What I'm getting is that you are either making up nonsense, pretending to be stupid, or just genuinely confused. I'll assume it's the last -- we've already go one thread today where someone's pretending to be an idiot, and it's getting ugly. The idea behind the relay telescope is that you open up a corridor to Andromeda and bring current photons here at near-infinite velocity. We know that relays can accelerate photons as well as objects with mass, or comm buoys couldn't work. This is arguably a problem with the ME1 lore, but the mass effect is space magic anyway, so we can ignore that.
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Post by sdzald on Apr 13, 2017 15:40:11 GMT
They can also probably use it to see what happened to the Milky way and probably also communicate with them on Earth if we are to believe the magic. There in lies the problem. In Sc-fi it is kind of ok to create 'space magic' after all it is Sci-Fi. Now of course there are hardcore Sci-fi fans that like their 'space magic' to reflect real world physics, we will ignore them, they are no fun anyway The problem is when the creator (Bioware in this instance) builds a world where gadget SNAFU does a certain thing and does it in a certain way, the player has to accept it as canon. What Bioware does over and over, and NOT just in MEA but MET as well, is that after establishing that the SNAFU device can create, say green ice cream, but only if used on Tuesday. They then later in the story tell you that SNAFU is actually creating blue Ice cream on Friday. When you world build you have to keep that world consistent, you can NOT be changing the basic structure of that world without the very fabric of the story falling into total chaos. Bioware does not even care about their own canon. They routinely change the world the story is in and just expect us to accept it. For some people they don't care about this, and ok that is cool, but for me and I think many others, the world a story is based in has to be solid or the story itself just does not work.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 13, 2017 15:46:02 GMT
My understanding of relay corridors is that lightspeed communication is possible through them (it's how comm buoys work, after all) One could extrapolate that the corridor allows for instantaneous travel of information as well as matter. So the information gleaned on Heleus would be close to current. No more than a few years off, depending on where exactly the corridor comes out. The problem comes from how can such a corridor be formed without a relay on the other end? Logically, the Andromeda Initiative could have shaved 600 years off their trip simply by shotgunning themselves to Andromeda using this "telescope" Easy enough to handwave this in some fashion. Say, the reason you need a pair of relays is to keep the corridor stable. Otherwise you have 30% of the particles randomized. Still works for scanning since you can just repeat the scans and sort the signal from the noise, but unacceptable for a ship. The really hard question is why the writers bothered. A couple of million years ago Earth would have looked pretty much the way it does today, except for us. Come to think of it, this really is Lazarus all over again.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 13, 2017 15:53:46 GMT
My understanding of relay corridors is that lightspeed communication is possible through them (it's how comm buoys work, after all) One could extrapolate that the corridor allows for instantaneous travel of information as well as matter. So the information gleaned on Heleus would be close to current. No more than a few years off, depending on where exactly the corridor comes out. The problem comes from how can such a corridor be formed without a relay on the other end? Logically, the Andromeda Initiative could have shaved 600 years off their trip simply by shotgunning themselves to Andromeda using this "telescope" Easy enough to handwave this in some fashion. Say, the reason you need a pair of relays is to keep the corridor stable. Otherwise you have 30% of the particles randomized. Still works for scanning since you can just repeat the scans and sort the signal from the noise, but unacceptable for a ship. The really hard question is why the writers bothered. A couple of million years ago Earth would have looked pretty much the way it does today, except for us. Come to think of it, this really is Lazarus all over again. Maybe, but they didn't even try that. Like I said, this was a potential shortcut that could have seriously saved resources for the trip. No six hundred year journey, no stasis. And this wasn't even considered? And yeah, geologically, Earth is pretty much the same as it was two and a half million years ago. Though were were in the midst our our last major Ice Age, so things weren't quite the same.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 13, 2017 16:01:13 GMT
If they knew about randomizing 30% of the particles (or whatever), there's nothing to try. But yeah, slip a sentence into the Codex about why it's unworkable,
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Post by goishen on Apr 13, 2017 16:01:51 GMT
My understanding of relay corridors is that lightspeed communication is possible through them (it's how comm buoys work, after all) One could extrapolate that the corridor allows for instantaneous travel of information as well as matter. So the information gleaned on Heleus would be close to current. No more than a few years off, depending on where exactly the corridor comes out. The problem comes from how can such a corridor be formed without a relay on the other end? Logically, the Andromeda Initiative could have shaved 600 years off their trip simply by shotgunning themselves to Andromeda using this "telescope" Easy enough to handwave this in some fashion. Say, the reason you need a pair of relays is to keep the corridor stable. Otherwise you have 30% of the particles randomized. Still works for scanning since you can just repeat the scans and sort the signal from the noise, but unacceptable for a ship. The really hard question is why the writers bothered. A couple of million years ago Earth would have looked pretty much the way it does today, except for us. Come to think of it, this really is Lazarus all over again. Maybe it is the Lazarus project all over again, but at the very least they massaged that in. They didn't say, "Hey, I'm a scientist who came up here on a wish and a prayer, hoping that someone else's calculations were correct. And then not even having the dignity to be angry when they weren't."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 16:09:36 GMT
There in lies the problem. In Sc-fi it is kind of ok to create 'space magic' after all it is Sci-Fi. Now of course there are hardcore Sci-fi fans that like their 'space magic' to reflect real world physics, we will ignore them, they are no fun anyway The problem is when the creator (Bioware in this instance) builds a world where gadget SNAFU does a certain thing and does it in a certain way, the player has to accept it as canon. What Bioware does over and over, and NOT just in MEA but MET as well, is that after establishing that the SNAFU device can create, say green ice cream, but only if used on Tuesday. They then later in the story tell you that SNAFU is actually creating blue Ice cream on Friday. When you world build you have to keep that world consistent, you can NOT be changing the basic structure of that world without the very fabric of the story falling into total chaos. Bioware does not even care about their own canon. They routinely change the world the story is in and just expect us to accept it. For some people they don't care about this, and ok that is cool, but for me and I think many others, the world a story is based in has to be solid or the story itself just does not work. I would argue that, to use your example, if this device is said to create green ice-cream on Tuesdays, it doesn't automatically mean the device can't create blue ice-cream on Friday. That isn't technically changing anything, just adding to it. We are only told initially that the device does a thing on a particular day. From that we can theorise and infer what it might do on other days, or assume it doesn't do anything else, but we don't have definite proof until the source says otherwise. To use a Mass Effect example, take the jump-jets. People are complaining that in ME2, we never had jump-jets, and yet in MEA which is set in the same timeframe technologically speaking, we have jump-jets. In the MET we don't use jump-jets, and from that people have inferred that no-one uses jump-jets. But we're never given any information that actually tells us no-one uses jump-jets, it's just an inference from what we know about Shepard. And, actually, we do see other people use jump-jets in ME3, so it's reasonable to expect they were around during the time of ME2/MEA. Same goes for the Andromeda Initiative itself. We don't hear anything about it while we're playing as Shepard, so we assume it doesn't exist. But nothing in the trilogy actually precludes it from existing. A real-world equivalent would be me telling you the capital of the Solomon Islands is Honiara.* I'd guess most people don't know that (unless they're from the Solomon Islands, obviously), but that doesn't mean that when I tell you, I'm "breaking the lore". I'm just adding information. There are a couple things in Andromeda that do directly contradict what was previously said. The asari pronoun thing is the big one for me. But a lot of what I think people are perceiving as breaking the lore is actually just contradicting what they've inferred, not anything explicitly stated anywhere in the games. So as far as I'm concerned, that's not an issue. *Wikipedia is my friend.
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Post by sdzald on Apr 13, 2017 16:14:13 GMT
Easy enough to handwave this in some fashion. Say, the reason you need a pair of relays is to keep the corridor stable. Otherwise you have 30% of the particles randomized. Still works for scanning since you can just repeat the scans and sort the signal from the noise, but unacceptable for a ship. The really hard question is why the writers bothered. A couple of million years ago Earth would have looked pretty much the way it does today, except for us. Come to think of it, this really is Lazarus all over again. Maybe, but they didn't even try that. Like I said, this was a potential shortcut that could have seriously saved resources for the trip. No six hundred year journey, no stasis. And this wasn't even considered? And yeah, geologically, Earth is pretty much the same as it was two and a half million years ago. Though were were in the midst our our last major Ice Age, so things weren't quite the same. Lets be honest, they REALLY wanted to separate themselves as much as they could from MET. They picked a number out of thin air and then came up with a story that fit that need. That is Biowares biggest problem when it comes to story writing. They are either too lazy or too incompetent to create a story that 'fits' with what has come before. They just 'wave their hands' and expect us just to go along.
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Post by sdzald on Apr 13, 2017 16:28:49 GMT
Ok frex98 maybe I should have been more precise. If I tell you that the ONLY thing SNAFU can do is make Green Ice Cream on Tuesday, and then later in the story I tell you it is making blue ice cream on Friday that BREAKS canon. We are told in MET that Mass relays ONLY work in pairs and thier only function is to travel from one place to another instantly. Suddenly they are being used to look 2.4 million years into the future without a second device on the other end. For me that breaks canon.
We have to infer ALL kinds of back ground world information because there is NO way for them to write a complete world. So we are left to infer lots of things based on our life's experience and knowledge. A good writer understands this, a good writer lives in this made up world as much as we do and will doing everything in his power not break his world.
I think a big part of the problem is that in a game world like ME and considering the story spans more then 10 years, Bioware ends up with lots of writers leaving and many more coming. There is no one image of the world they create. When new writers don't take the time to learn the WORLD they are writing in, ignore it or get lazy for the sake of story telling then that story starts to unravel. MEA unraveled it all.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 13, 2017 18:45:16 GMT
Easy enough to handwave this in some fashion. Say, the reason you need a pair of relays is to keep the corridor stable. Otherwise you have 30% of the particles randomized. Still works for scanning since you can just repeat the scans and sort the signal from the noise, but unacceptable for a ship. The really hard question is why the writers bothered. A couple of million years ago Earth would have looked pretty much the way it does today, except for us. Come to think of it, this really is Lazarus all over again. Maybe it is the Lazarus project all over again, but at the very least they massaged that in. They didn't say, "Hey, I'm a scientist who came up here on a wish and a prayer, hoping that someone else's calculations were correct. And then not even having the dignity to be angry when they weren't." I don't see the problem. Did anybody ever say that the AI was a completely safe venture? The probability of multiple inhabitable worlds all going bad in a few centuries is very low; even a couple million years shouldn't be enough for that. But, yeah, there were multiple things that could go wrong with such a plan, and as it happens the game is set in a world where one of them did. Anyone who didn't find such a risk acceptable could simply not volunteer.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 13, 2017 18:52:27 GMT
And yeah, geologically, Earth is pretty much the same as it was two and a half million years ago. Though were were in the midst our our last major Ice Age, so things weren't quite the same. Lets be honest, they REALLY wanted to separate themselves as much as they could from MET. They picked a number out of thin air and then came up with a story that fit that need. That is Biowares biggest problem when it comes to story writing. They are either too lazy or too incompetent to create a story that 'fits' with what has come before. They just 'wave their hands' and expect us just to go along. The number wasn't picked out of thin air; that's how fast you get to Andromeda at standard FTL speed if you can solve the drive discharge and fuel issues. Anyway, the specific problem here is that the FTL telescope thing is an own-goal on their lore for no real advantage. Decreasing the window between data and arrival from 2 million years to 600 years or so reduces the chance that, say, the worlds will be colonized by alien life, or that natural disasters will wipe out several of the planets. But the first doesn't get reduced to zero, and the second was a low-probability event anyway.
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