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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 18:24:23 GMT
Sure, but inasmuch as Tranquil can still concentrate and pursue a course of study (which is what I care about mostly), they are not brain activities I would rather die than give up. Especially when you consider that Tranquil are incapable of caring that it was done to them. The only way to really *know* it sucks is to be Tranquil and then to be cured. If I'm never cured, I would never know the difference. But the motivation is emotion. This is why so hard to imagine a tranquil... Without emotions, what's would the reason to live? To do things? If I can't feel satisfaction, happyness about a success, why I would get out of bed? Pointless. Everything's senseless, if I don't have motivation, satisfaction, happiness. I don't know how they work, but they do clearly work in game. They don't just stand in a corner and die, failing to eat or move or speak. Probably because motivation is a more complicated process than just emotion. Or for that matter so are "urges." I mean is hunger an emotion? Most would say not and yet we frequently call it an urge along with the "urge" to laugh or cry or whatever. In all likelihood "emotion" is a sort of arbitrary definition we have put on how we classify sensations and brain activities, and there is no clear, easy to define underlying thing that corresponds neatly to "emotion." At most you can say, "when you feel happy, the brain looks like X," but as to what the evolutionary function of happiness is, what parts of it are result of unconscious versus conscious processes, whether it's a necessary element of the activity that prompted it or merely a byproduct of it, who knows? My guess is that Tranquility basically neuters the fight or flight response (which is why Tranquil will just keep cleaning a store room in a tower overrun by abominations) and kills the processes necessary to form emotional attachments with people (so anger, sadness, affection, etc.). It doesn't actually seem to mess with rudimentary motivation (to eat, sleep, get out of bed, etc.) or screw with the ability to concentrate or analyze or probably even with a sense of contentment and satisfaction.
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Post by warden on Feb 23, 2018 18:24:31 GMT
the question is we should put all mages through the rite of tranquility?
I agree you have my support, do it.
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Raga
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 18:35:19 GMT
the question is we should put all mages through the rite of tranquility? I agree you have my support, do it. Well, if Cassandra is right and Seekers are immune to possession (at least minus being hogtied and force fed red lyrium or whatever nonsense was going in in DAI), it does raise the question if it's worthwhile for mages undergo it and then cure them by having a spirit touch them.
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Post by warden on Feb 23, 2018 18:36:44 GMT
the question is we should put all mages through the rite of tranquility? I agree you have my support, do it. Well, if Cassandra is right and Seekers are immune to possession (at least minus being hogtied and force fed red lyrium or whatever nonsense was going in in DAI), it does raise the question if it's worthwhile for mages undergo it and then cure them by having a spirit touch them. but a cure won't be fun, let them tranquil for the rest of their lives.
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Raga
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 18:50:48 GMT
Well, if Cassandra is right and Seekers are immune to possession (at least minus being hogtied and force fed red lyrium or whatever nonsense was going in in DAI), it does raise the question if it's worthwhile for mages undergo it and then cure them by having a spirit touch them. What happens with the mage who has undergone the rite then cured with a spirit . Does he lose his magic or does he retain his magic and gain immunity to possession? I don't know if he becomes immune to possession. I also don't know if they get their abilities back. I can't remember if Pharamond in Asunder did or not. I do remember he was unduly emotional and weepy when he was cured, but as Cassandra has no such problems it's unclear if that's because he was a mage or if it's because he was Tranquil for so long as she was not. We'd need to know more about how the process works, basically, to know for sure.
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Post by davkar on Feb 23, 2018 19:23:49 GMT
the question is we should put all mages through the rite of tranquility? I agree you have my support, do it. Well, if Cassandra is right and Seekers are immune to possession (at least minus being hogtied and force fed red lyrium or whatever nonsense was going in in DAI), it does raise the question if it's worthwhile for mages undergo it and then cure them by having a spirit touch them. warden's bait-y post aside this was my first thought as well. Cassie said it's impossible. If I recall (+ameridan's comments) the tranquilty was discovered by trying this and the conclusion was that, nope, doesn't work on mages. Tranquility would be better than harrowing. Summoning a specific spirit for a specific mage would be a better graduation. For a Bethany, Wynne or other believer mages obviously a spirit of faith. Someone wants to be a healer? Spirit of compassion. Historian, researcher? Spirit of wisdom. Etc. And this would be a foolproof solution because the spirit would only help the 'worthy' (something about this in a Cassie-Cole banter, the spirit came to her because she had faith). Once they are 'brought back' they are protected from demons, yay. Of course mages would be still dangerous because fireball>swords but if a graduated mage goes on a killing spree it would be a result of them being an ahole, not because "demons made them do it".
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 19:36:38 GMT
Leliana. Is. CRAAAAAAAZY.didn't know this was an opinion. thought it was fact.
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 19:38:11 GMT
I'm with her on the whole magic is dangerous, As I read this, I was like, oh no. No no. Catilina don't-- *looks at next post. It's Catilina*
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 23, 2018 19:40:41 GMT
Summoning a specific spirit for a specific mage would be a better graduation. For a Bethany, Wynne or other believer mages obviously a spirit of faith. Someone wants to be a healer? Spirit of compassion. Historian, researcher? Spirit of wisdom. Etc. And this would be a foolproof solution because the spirit would only help the 'worthy' (something about this in a Cassie-Cole banter, the spirit came to her because she had faith). Once they are 'brought back' they are protected from demons, yay. Of course mages would be still dangerous because fireball>swords but if a graduated mage goes on a killing spree it would be a result of them being an ahole, not because "demons made them do it". This is essentially what the Avvar do, no? Bind themselves to spirits and become abominations and then "release" the spirit later? I do wonder what becomes of the spirits in those cases, though? For someone like Solas, at least, would that process just be seen as another form of slavery, the act of binding even under those circumstances be seen as infringing on the spirit's rights?
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 19:46:46 GMT
*frowns confused* *understanding dawns* We've never encountered similar creatures (sylvans, werewolves, We run into an ex werewolf in DA2. The true werewolves were taken care of by the Cousland family hundreds of years ago(WoT 1 I believe). The thing happening in the Brecillain forest was a heavily localized blood magic curse. Blood magic wasn't used for anything other than the obvious "bring forth more goons to blast" in DA2. Only interesting use of it was the mind control the prostitute did. Only Blood Magic in DAI was the Demon Binding Mind Control thing as well. than using PC's power of suicidal therapy. I think Mass Effect Shepard has at least one of these moments as well. I think the "boarding school + graduation" idea is the safest for all people, I think I've yet to see a Dalish Abomination, or heard of a Rivaini version. We only saw one? in the Avaar DLC? I think making a mage think they've sinned by birth, locking them up all together in places that inevitably have thinner veils, and then abusing them is what causes abominations primarily.
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Post by davkar on Feb 23, 2018 19:53:01 GMT
Summoning a specific spirit for a specific mage would be a better graduation. For a Bethany, Wynne or other believer mages obviously a spirit of faith. Someone wants to be a healer? Spirit of compassion. Historian, researcher? Spirit of wisdom. Etc. And this would be a foolproof solution because the spirit would only help the 'worthy' (something about this in a Cassie-Cole banter, the spirit came to her because she had faith). Once they are 'brought back' they are protected from demons, yay. Of course mages would be still dangerous because fireball>swords but if a graduated mage goes on a killing spree it would be a result of them being an ahole, not because "demons made them do it". This is essentially what the Avvar do, no? Bind themselves to spirits and become abominations and then "release" the spirit later? I do wonder what becomes of the spirits in those cases, though? For someone like Solas, at least, would that process just be seen as another form of slavery, the act of binding even under those circumstances be seen as infringing on the spirit's rights? Maybe? It felt like more of a private tutor thing with the avvar not a direct possession. They treat them as gods after all so 'living together' for a few years isn't a big deal for them. Hmm, now that I think more about JoH I seem to recall (someone who knows every line from the game could help me out here) Ameridan mentioning something about his spirit companion. Since he was a seeker then maybe the tranquility+spirit treatment does work on mages too.
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Post by copper on Feb 23, 2018 20:00:58 GMT
I think the "boarding school + graduation" idea is the safest for all people, I think I've yet to see a Dalish Abomination, or heard of a Rivaini version. We only saw one? in the Avaar DLC? I guess there was Marethari in DA2? That was a silly situation to begin with though. It bugs me to no end that she didn't at least warn the rest of the clan that she was planning to let the demon possess her. But yeah, based on what the series has shown us so far it appears that the fear caused by the abuses in the circle system is the biggest trigger for abominations to form.
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Post by davesin on Feb 23, 2018 20:07:46 GMT
We've never encountered similar creatures (sylvans, werewolves, We run into an ex werewolf in DA2. The true werewolves were taken care of by the Cousland family hundreds of years ago(WoT 1 I believe). The thing happening in the Brecillain forest was a heavily localized blood magic curse. Blood magic wasn't used for anything other than the obvious "bring forth more goons to blast" in DA2. Only interesting use of it was the mind control the prostitute did. Only Blood Magic in DAI was the Demon Binding Mind Control thing as well. than using PC's power of suicidal therapy. I think Mass Effect Shepard has at least one of these moments as well. That might be the source of problem I have with the quest. Blood magic is either used as indoctrination/mind control or as "more dakka explosions spell" in most cases, that's why it seems quite weird. Creative use of magic is pretty rare since Origins (the only innovative non-explosive thing I can think of are those magic telephones from Calpernia quest and gift from Dorian) and I hope we'll get something new in DA4. And yes, Shepard gets at least two of these moments (TIM and Saren).
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Post by Raga on Feb 23, 2018 20:08:41 GMT
We run into an ex werewolf in DA2. The true werewolves were taken care of by the Cousland family hundreds of years ago(WoT 1 I believe). The thing happening in the Brecillain forest was a heavily localized blood magic curse. Blood magic wasn't used for anything other than the obvious "bring forth more goons to blast" in DA2. Only interesting use of it was the mind control the prostitute did. Only Blood Magic in DAI was the Demon Binding Mind Control thing as well. Blood magic basically just uses blood for fuel rather than lyrium, which is why it's so frequently used by mages who do want to summon demons. Lyrium access is so tightly controlled and calling a demon across the Veil takes so much energy, that they basically have no recourse but to use blood. It's also just generally tempting in a way that lyrium can never be because there are all these people full of blood just walking around all the time. So it's not dangerous inherently, but rather because it's easy and available so the desperate, the ambitious, the impatient, etc. are likely to use it. If random piles of lyrium were sitting everywhere that would be just as dangerous.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 23, 2018 20:10:23 GMT
I think I've yet to see a Dalish Abomination, It is worth noting that Dalish only tend to have 2 mages with them at a time, and being a Keeper/Keepers First is functionally the equivalent of getting a masters degree/doctorate in every school of magic.
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 20:17:19 GMT
I think I've yet to see a Dalish Abomination, It is worth noting that Dalish only tend to have 2 mages with them at a time, and being a Keeper/Keepers First is functionally the equivalent of getting a masters degree/doctorate in every school of magic. So it seems to be a localized concentrated boarding school is actually the opposite of safety. Sounds like it should be an apprentice thing. Something like what Tevinter does. <-A place I've also heard little of abominations regarding. Whereas Viv tells stories of Demons trying to tempt her and her becoming rigidly self controlled in an icy fashion that makes me think she's more afraid than anything, Dorian shares grapes and a laugh with a Desire Demon before saying "tata". Which group has the healthier approach to magic, it's pretty clear. That healthiness just doesn't seem to extend to their feelings about General Person Worth.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 23, 2018 20:17:41 GMT
But the motivation is emotion. This is why so hard to imagine a tranquil... Without emotions, what's would the reason to live? To do things? If I can't feel satisfaction, happyness about a success, why I would get out of bed? Pointless. Everything's senseless, if I don't have motivation, satisfaction, happiness. I don't know how they work, but they do clearly work in game. They don't just stand in a corner and die, failing to eat or move or speak. Probably because motivation is a more complicated process than just emotion. Or for that matter so are "urges." I mean is hunger an emotion? Most would say not and yet we frequently call it an urge along with the "urge" to laugh or cry or whatever. In all likelihood "emotion" is a sort of arbitrary definition we have put on how we classify sensations and brain activities, and there is no clear, easy to define underlying thing that corresponds neatly to "emotion." At most you can say, "when you feel happy, the brain looks like X," but as to what the evolutionary function of happiness is, what parts of it are result of unconscious versus conscious processes, whether it's a necessary element of the activity that prompted it or merely a byproduct of it, who knows? My guess is that Tranquility basically neuters the fight or flight response (which is why Tranquil will just keep cleaning a store room in a tower overrun by abominations) and kills the processes necessary to form emotional attachments with people (so anger, sadness, affection, etc.). It doesn't actually seem to mess with rudimentary motivation (to eat, sleep, get out of bed, etc.) or screw with the ability to concentrate or analyze or probably even with a sense of contentment and satisfaction. I suppose there some inconsistency in the writing. And I don't know, how it works, but there some pieces of information. The DA-wiki say: the emotional-centre (whatever is this...) utterly removed by the side-effect of the Tranquility. The Tranquils prefer the lives over the death. To eat over the starvation. So: the Tranquils work. They remember their life, so: they identify their friends, lover etc (Karl), but this only an information, that doesn't mean anything anymore. Maddox worked for Samson willingly, because he knew, Samson was benevolent with him and wanted to pay that back. He wanted, because Samson was the life to Maddox, when Samson took him with him. We know, Maddox, the Tranquil, was able to help Samson in his "work" but if he would be been Maddox, the Mage, would able to follow him without a question? And what about Karl? We know, Karl loved Anders (why would we question this?), why he "betrayed" him? Because as Tranquil, the Circle was the life, the calm life. He remembered Anders was dissatisfied, just as himself, but now, Karl is calm. He has food and bed. He's not dissatisfied anymore. Not that bad, at all. But when he got himself back, he wanted to die rather lose his emotions again. (Just as Pharamond.) Karl, the Tranquil "betrayed" his friend (lover), and prefers the life over the death, but Karl the Mage, probably never would able to do such a thing, and just want to die. We know two Mage, who was Tranquil and got back his emotions: Karl and Pharamond. Both wanted to die instead of being Tranquil again. Pharamond in Asunder: " I find it ironic the Rite of Tranquility cuts one off from the land of dreams, because a dream is exactly what it feels like. Everything in a dream is as it should be, nothing is out of place... yet part of you knows something is not right. This isn't your home, this isn't your life... it isn't you. Yet one cannot act other than the dream allows. It follows its course, and you follow it believing nothing is real. You will turn the corner and awaken, safe and sound. Yet you never do. Instead you are slowly smothered in a crystal-clear silence that has no meaning"
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 20:18:50 GMT
As I read this, I was like, oh no. No no. Catilina don't-- *looks at next post. It's Catilina* Every time I have ever said something vaguely anti-mage freedom Catilina has personally flown to the U.S., kicked down my door, and read his mage manifesto with a megaphone to me and everyone in my neighborhood. True story, I was there. Catilina IS ANDERS! As possible side effect, now everyone in your neighborhood knows about Dragon Age.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 23, 2018 20:22:32 GMT
So it seems to be a localized concentrated boarding school is actually the opposite of safety. Sounds like it should be an apprentice thing. Something like what Tevinter does. <-A place I've also heard little of abominations regarding. Whereas Viv tells stories of Demons trying to tempt her and her becoming rigidly self controlled in an icy fashion that makes me think she's more afraid than anything, Dorian shares grapes and a laugh with a Desire Demon before saying "tata". Which group has the healthier approach to magic, it's pretty clear. That healthiness just doesn't seem to extend to their feelings about General Person Worth. I think there's probably a balance of respect. The more scared of a demon or spirit you are, the more dangerous it becomes. But if you dont fear it at all, you can, indeed, find yourself possessed.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 23, 2018 20:23:17 GMT
I think I've yet to see a Dalish Abomination, or heard of a Rivaini version. We only saw one? in the Avaar DLC? The Avvar Shaman guy mentions slitting the throat of mages that go too far with their spirits when they are sleeping, so it's not like they are completely at a great solution. It wouldn't surprise me if the Dalish and Rivaini do something similar, just like it didn't surprise me that the Dalish abandoned a child (who they seemed to leave suspiciously near a human settlememt) if they had too many mages - it's not something they'd advertise. It may explain why Marethari seemed so desparate about Merril, and made many stupid choices in dealing with her, as she knew her what she was perhaps meant to do was too hard for her. Easiar to take the demon herself and be killed then for her to have to kill Merril.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 23, 2018 20:25:24 GMT
I think I've yet to see a Dalish Abomination, It is worth noting that Dalish only tend to have 2 mages with them at a time, and being a Keeper/Keepers First is functionally the equivalent of getting a masters degree/doctorate in every school of magic. This simply not true. In Origins and DA2 every mage children were a gift. The clans send the mage children to another clan, what doesn't have ENOUGH mage children... In the Inquisition, from nowhere, appeared this illogical "three-mage"-bullshit...
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 20:25:47 GMT
For a Bethany, Wynne or other believer mages obviously a spirit of faith. Someone wants to be a healer? Spirit of compassion. Historian, researcher? Spirit of wisdom *thinks of Jowan* Umm... love the guy, but he doesn't really grow up until he escapes the Circle. In that way, he finds that courage within,defending peasants in the countryside from Darkspawn! or giving himself over to certain tranquility and death to right his own wrong. but it would never have happened in the circle
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Post by davesin on Feb 23, 2018 20:27:12 GMT
Every time I have ever said something vaguely anti-mage freedom Catilina has personally flown to the U.S., kicked down my door, and read his mage manifesto with a megaphone to me and everyone in my neighborhood. True story, I was there. Catilina IS ANDERS! Wait, wait, wait, does it mean he's romancing Hawke in DA2, or is he romancing himself?! Unless Hawke romances someone else, of course.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 23, 2018 20:29:25 GMT
Wait, wait, wait, does it mean he's romancing Hawke in DA2, or is he romancing himself?! Unless Hawke romances someone else, of course.Shhh... I'm Justice.
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Post by phoray on Feb 23, 2018 20:29:29 GMT
Easiar to take the demon herself and be killed then for her to have to kill Merril. There is nothing other than confused forced drama Mom-crazy to explain what Marethari did. She was probably a stronger mage than Merril and put her whole clan at risk in so many ways. She tried to kill Merril herself once posessed anyway. She is just super dumb, her intelligence so clouded by emotional based illogical decisions. And Merril wasn't even her own blood child, the whole thing was weird.
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