dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 4, 2016 22:00:02 GMT
I just wanted to check something out so I went into ME1 with Jillian Shepard on Noveria. I did the unlit shadows thing so that Shepard/companions/rachni/geth/others weren't all blocky. Anyway, when I get to the point where I have a decision to make regarding the rachni queen I have Kaidan and Ashley with me. Other PTs have always brought along Liara so this was a first. It's literally like having an angel and a devil on your shoulder. One's say "kill 'em all" while the other is like "genocide is a bad thing". It really illustrates how different these two are. To me, it also shows that one is more suited to renegade while the other is best with a paragon. Anyone else notice this?
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Post by straykat on Sept 4, 2016 22:01:37 GMT
I just wanted to check something out so I went into ME1 with Jillian Shepard on Noveria. I did the unlit shadows thing so that Shepard/companions/rachni/geth/others weren't all blocky. Anyway, when I get to the point where I have a decision to make regarding the rachni queen I have Kaidan and Ashley with me. Other PTs have always brought along Liara so this was a first. It's literally like having an angel and a devil on your shoulder. One's say "kill 'em all" while the other is like "genocide is a bad thing". It really illustrates how different these two are. To me, it also shows that one is more suited to renegade while the other is best with a paragon. Anyone else notice this? Oh they're definitely different. The sad thing is, they slowly made each less unique and reused many of the same themes and lines in 2 and 3.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 4, 2016 22:11:12 GMT
It's funny, because people will say Ashley is better because she has her own mind and will challenge Shepard. Yet, when renegade Shepard is talking about killing the rachni queen, it's Kaidan who is challenging Shepard.
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Post by Darth Dennis on Sept 4, 2016 22:12:28 GMT
Unrelated, but about the decision in general:
It would have been a lot better if there was actually a good justification for killing the queen other than 'lolEvil'.
For example, say you were RPing a mostly paragon Shepard, but has issues dealing with trust because of an experience they had, so doesn't really believe the queen's story and wants to kill her.
However, the dialogue is "this time, stay dead", which isn't the right tone for that sort of Shepard, and then the facial animation makes Shepard look like he's thinking "Mwahahahaaa! I love committing genocide!"
As much as I love the Noveria mission, the Matriarch Benezia scenes and final choice are quite irritating.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 5, 2016 0:31:38 GMT
I kind of get it, though. The rachni were going to destroy everyone had not the krogan been uplifted to deal with them. Sure, this queen had nothing to do with it but when Shepard comes to Noveria they have to fight rachni. The queen may say that rachni aren't naturally aggressive (though even Hackett says they're naturally good at working on weapons of mass destructive after the join the Crucible project) but the evidence all points against it. There's no reason to believe her. I saw her as angry and putting the final nail in the coffin of a major threat but not necessarily evil. That said, I felt guilty when I made Jillian Shepard kill the queen. Worse still, I know the negative impact this will have down the line.
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Post by straykat on Sept 5, 2016 0:34:16 GMT
I kind of get it, though. The rachni were going to destroy everyone had not the krogan been uplifted to deal with them. Sure, this queen had nothing to do with it but when Shepard comes to Noveria they have to fight rachni. The queen may say that rachni aren't naturally aggressive (though even Hackett says they're naturally good at working on weapons of mass destructive after the join the Crucible project) but the evidence all points against it. There's no reason to believe her. I saw her as angry and putting the final nail in the coffin of a major threat but not necessarily evil. That said, I felt guilty when I made Jillian Shepard kill the queen. Worse still, I know the negative impact this will have down the line. I can respect that, even though I tend to save them. It's still a leap of faith. Just not the leap of faith that Krogan are to me. If anything, because there's proof that Rachni have evolved on their own as an advanced civilization before. Krogan can't even get to this point yet.
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dmc1001
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Biotic Booty
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 5, 2016 0:44:50 GMT
It's funny, but I'm more forgiving where the krogan are concerned. We know the genophage was put on them. We also know the salarians made sure they were aggressive (according to the dalatrass). It's hard to penalize them for that. Shepard knows these things, too. And while I know that the rachni also had their minds altered by the Reapers, Shepard only had the word of the queen on that one - and she has a vested interest in making others believe that story, true or not.
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Post by straykat on Sept 5, 2016 3:30:34 GMT
It's funny, but I'm more forgiving where the krogan are concerned. We know the genophage was put on them. We also know the salarians made sure they were aggressive (according to the dalatrass). It's hard to penalize them for that. Shepard knows these things, too. And while I know that the rachni also had their minds altered by the Reapers, Shepard only had the word of the queen on that one - and she has a vested interest in making others believe that story, true or not. Yeah, but I also have examples of Rachni potential and how advanced and intelligent they really are. They're like way out there, wacky sci-fi shit. While the Krogan are cavemen with guns and nukes.. who skipped many of the hard lessons a species needs for a galactic existence. Thinking in Star Trek-y terms especially, they bypassed the "prime directive". This is nothing but trouble. It can't be fixed lightly.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 5, 2016 5:00:53 GMT
There is some weight to the Rachni Queen's word. If you watch the video, while Shepard's looking at the Queen and both teammates are away, the Asari she possesses has the chance to push the release button. It takes just two pushes when Shepard releases her, but the Queen deliberately reared up to startle Shep into backing up into the dying Asari. The Queen blew her one chance to escape and tried to communicate with Shep.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 5, 2016 5:54:25 GMT
I guess. I would have just seen a possessed dead asari.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 6, 2016 17:32:05 GMT
It's funny, but I'm more forgiving where the krogan are concerned. We know the genophage was put on them. We also know the salarians made sure they were aggressive (according to the dalatrass). It's hard to penalize them for that. Shepard knows these things, too. And while I know that the rachni also had their minds altered by the Reapers, Shepard only had the word of the queen on that one - and she has a vested interest in making others believe that story, true or not. She could very well be at that point in ME 1, but I believe that her interaction with Shepard in ME 2, blows that theory out of the water. If the Rachni queen truly was just blowing smoke up Shepard's rump just to stay alive, why would she actively seek out him/her again on Illium? Shepard and Co, were't looking for the Rachni, nor did they have any idea that she was working with agents to gather supplies and intel; not only letting Shepard (and by extension Cerberus) know of her existence as well as the use of another asari as an agent, but also seeking him/her out to inform Shepard of her continued plan to support the galaxy in the coming invasion. That's not something that someone would do if they were lying through their mandibles just to avoid death via acid bath. The fact that the queen made an effort to communicate after Noveria shows that she was sincere in her intentions. It's certainly more than Wrex can say about his promise of aid. ME 2 Wrex: "We're with you Shepard, just say the word and the Krogan will be there." ME 3 Wrex: "We're not going to do anything until the Genophage is cured."
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 6, 2016 17:37:26 GMT
There is some weight to the Rachni Queen's word. If you watch the video, while Shepard's looking at the Queen and both teammates are away, the Asari she possesses has the chance to push the release button. It takes just two pushes when Shepard releases her, but the Queen deliberately reared up to startle Shep into backing up into the dying Asari. The Queen blew her one chance to escape and tried to communicate with Shep. This too.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 6, 2016 19:08:01 GMT
I've taken Ashley and Kaidan many times to Noveria. I'm about 50/50 when choosing what to do with the queen. I would've preferred if there was a choice to leave it for the council to deal with it, then in ME3, the player sees what choice the council made.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 6, 2016 19:29:21 GMT
It's funny, but I'm more forgiving where the krogan are concerned. We know the genophage was put on them. We also know the salarians made sure they were aggressive (according to the dalatrass). It's hard to penalize them for that. Shepard knows these things, too. And while I know that the rachni also had their minds altered by the Reapers, Shepard only had the word of the queen on that one - and she has a vested interest in making others believe that story, true or not. She could very well be at that point in ME 1, but I believe that her interaction with Shepard in ME 2, blows that theory out of the water. If the Rachni queen truly was just blowing smoke up Shepard's rump just to stay alive, why would she actively seek out him/her again on Illium? I was strictly referring to how Shepard might perceive things on Noveria when first meeting the rachni. Later evidence wouldn't be helpful. *I* know the rachni queen is ok. Shepard, on Noveria, doesn't.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 6, 2016 19:31:12 GMT
I've taken Ashley and Kaidan many times to Noveria. I'm about 50/50 when choosing what to do with the queen. I would've preferred if there was a choice to leave it for the council to deal with it, then in ME3, the player sees what choice the council made. Agreed. Leaving the queen trapped and then contacting the Council. Of course, they would have said to kill her - unless they decided to study her instead.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 7, 2016 0:31:41 GMT
She could very well be at that point in ME 1, but I believe that her interaction with Shepard in ME 2, blows that theory out of the water. If the Rachni queen truly was just blowing smoke up Shepard's rump just to stay alive, why would she actively seek out him/her again on Illium? I was strictly referring to how Shepard might perceive things on Noveria when first meeting the rachni. Later evidence wouldn't be helpful. *I* know the rachni queen is ok. Shepard, on Noveria, doesn't. Doh! Sorry, my bad. Still, I can see Shepard realizing the Queen is worth not killing when comparing the queen's attempts at communication versus Wrex's flat out pulling of a gun on him/her. Granted, this would require Wrex to be present for the conversation, and the player having done Virmire prior but I could easily see the queen as being far more reasonable than the Krogan. Even when attempting to kill her off, all the queen does is try to escape, not flat out murder Shepard.
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Biotic Booty
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 7, 2016 3:10:50 GMT
But this comes down to a difference between paragon and renegade, at least as I see it. I generally play paragon and the idea of making a species go extinct is off the table. It's not even a question. Reapers make races vanish from the universe; that's bad guy tactics. A renegade, however, would look at them as a potential threat that's better removed before it becomes a problem. The renegade Shepard that I'm haphazardly playing in an ME1 PT decided that rachni are too dangerous to have around. Similarly, she didn't recruit Wrex because krogan are too unstable.
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Post by TopTrog on Sept 10, 2016 5:00:03 GMT
That was a pretty slick way that the writers used to set this up, as we clearly do not have enough data to make an informed decision and yet we are forced into a black/white choice here. There sure are several ways to justify both choices, but in the end it comes down to the way you see the world and gut feeling (which is probably pretty much the same thing sometimes). Me, I´d be all for taking off and nuking the entire site from orbit (it´s the only way to be sure) in certain cases, but this is not one of them. I also perceived this scene as a nod to the novel "Ender´s Game", in which a choice pretty much like this plays a central role. Entirely wiping out an intelligent species was not an option for me (Though I chose the "destroy" ending first, so much for being consistent ), and the choice came basically down to what I personally believe. So this was a pretty good way of forcing me to consider this. Interesting thing about the companions. I played the game 2 or three times and usually took a combination of Wrex/Garrus/Liara to this mission, so I did not know this. Figures that Ashley would take the opinion opposite to my own .
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