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Post by derrame on Apr 25, 2017 13:37:09 GMT
yes! i thought the same, there are too few i'd like to see new mechs from all species
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Post by klijpope on Apr 25, 2017 14:03:57 GMT
Story wise you kill at most 50-100 Exiles. Most of your stats come from respawns and overly packed areas for the sake of gameplay. Perhaps, but on my second play through, where I avoided combat with outlaws as much as possible, never tackling the respawns at all, and my total was still 750 (obviously, including Roekaar) from just story missions.
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Post by klijpope on Apr 25, 2017 14:31:21 GMT
This whole uprising stuff... poor writing, badly designed. The uprising is fine, and if you read the book, reasonably well written (does a very good job of getting into the head-space of Sloane Kelly and Tann and some others, and the uprising makes perfect sense). The problem is relying on an external source for a significant part of your backstory. As the game expects a lot of players to have read the book, it doesn't provide a satisfactory explanation in-game.
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Post by joglee on Apr 25, 2017 15:25:40 GMT
Story wise you kill at most 50-100 Exiles. Most of your stats come from respawns and overly packed areas for the sake of gameplay. Perhaps, but on my second play through, where I avoided combat with outlaws as much as possible, never tackling the respawns at all, and my total was still 750 (obviously, including Roekaar) from just story missions. Yes, again that comes from overcrowded areas for gameplay reasons. It's why buildings will have 5+ guys in them, then more will spawn in rooms and come fight you. You can't take the actual amount of kills as lore. Theres a balance between that and gameplay where gameplay wins out in some instances. If they made enemy count realistic the game would be boring.
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Post by joglee on Apr 25, 2017 15:26:21 GMT
This whole uprising stuff... poor writing, badly designed. The uprising is fine, and if you read the book, reasonably well written (does a very good job of getting into the head-space of Sloane Kelly and Tann and some others, and the uprising makes perfect sense). The problem is relying on an external source for a significant part of your backstory. As the game expects a lot of players to have read the book, it doesn't provide a satisfactory explanation in-game. Could be worse, we could be like destiny.......
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Post by dm04 on Apr 25, 2017 15:45:44 GMT
This whole uprising stuff... poor writing, badly designed. The uprising is fine, and if you read the book, reasonably well written (does a very good job of getting into the head-space of Sloane Kelly and Tann and some others, and the uprising makes perfect sense). The problem is relying on an external source for a significant part of your backstory. As the game expects a lot of players to have read the book, it doesn't provide a satisfactory explanation in-game. When I accept the uprising happened, the aftermath is good enough. And yes, when an external source is (pretty much) "required" to understand a significant part of the story, that is bad, realy realy realy bad (maybe if they, or any review, said: to understand a large part of the game you need to read the novel first. But it is still bad.) But as to why the uprising happened in the first place, will remain lost to me forever. And nothing is ever going to make me buy it (the story). I may read the book, and it could even be realy good, but I am still not going to believe why the uprising happened (you are free to tell me via message or spoilers here). I can think of dozen of reasons why an uprising/mutiny would happen and none is believable.
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Post by lexxxich on Apr 25, 2017 15:51:10 GMT
Like Masked Empire for DAI, somewhat.
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Post by dm04 on Apr 25, 2017 15:53:30 GMT
If they made enemy count realistic the game would be boring. Not neccesary. We do not realy know how many Kett are in Heleus, it could be hundreds of thousands aboard a lot of ships. The Angara... we do not see much, but they are like all over the place and on each planet, so I gues we got some million. Ramnant seem to have an easy time rebuilding themselves, so an unlimited supply of "troops". There we go, 3 different enemy factions and on top of that we have wildlife. As far as I am concerned, Kadara Port could be an Angara pirate outpost.
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Post by klijpope on Apr 25, 2017 16:51:32 GMT
I can think of dozen of reasons why an uprising/mutiny would happen and none is believable. OK, spoilery summary of the book Scourge hits Nexus just as the senior crew were waking up. The Nexus is crippled and Addison is the only survivor from the senior staff. She has a severe head injury. With Sloane Kelly’s help, they manage to get enough control of the situation to look at the chain of command. The protocols nominate Tann, an accountant, as next in line (8th), who is then woken up. So an uneasy triumvirate is formed. right
First order of business is survival; namely, life support. Tann reluctantly authorises for LS tech Calix to be awoken, and only him. He demands his team is awoken to fix the mess, which Kelly authorises without consulting Tann. This sets the tone.
Tann is a utilitarian. He makes decisions for the greater good, but is totally inept when it comes to dealing with people’s emotions. Sloane Kelly is passionate; she gets people’s emotional state. She has authoritarian tendencies, and feels they are in a ‘martial law’ situation. Foster Addison has a severe concussion and falls into a deep depression. She ends up indecisive.
Kesh has the best outlook, but Tann is prejudiced against Krogan, so rarely defers to her ideas.
Tann and Sloane Kelly end up distrusting each other. Both of them have to make decisions when the other is out of communication. This comes to a head when Tann sends Kandros (Kelly’s trusted second) out on a scouting mission while she is helping Kesh clear some wreckage. Kelly feels Tann deliberately sent her right hand away to undermine her authority, and her mood darkens when Kandros does not come back. The leadership becomes paranoid, and this starts to infect everyone else.
Calix, the life support tech, has a very, very loyal crew, and he looks out for them. Because of his expertise he can see what is happening, and witnesses a lot of the management arguments. The management also take him for granted; that he is “one of theirs”.
Because of the damage to the Nexus, there are few options. They do not have the life support/food capacity to support all those who are already awake, and do not have the right people awake to effectively repair the Nexus. Tann asks, ineptly, for volunteers to go back into cryo, and wait for a Pathfinder to show up. No one does, but now everyone knows the stakes. Whatever legitimacy the leaders had is now gone, and everyone starts to look to themselves. Hoarding starts, and people sneakily start to wake up their buddies and loved ones.
Meanwhile, Spender is working his corrupt incompetence. He’s wormed his way to Addison’s side because she is so depressed, he licks Tann’s cloaca every chance he gets. He lies and makes promises to all factions that he has no intention of keeping, and so lubricates the paranoia and distrust.
So for a while Calix has been planning to save his crew, and now he makes his move. Spender helps him get to the armoury, security people are killed, and everything kicks off. Desperate people, living on reduced rations, for months, and some without jobs to keep them occupied because the were awoken too soon, basically riot. Therefore: uprising.
Calix and his crew and other disaffected folk end up holding up in one part of the Nexus. Sloane Kelly can see how bad everything has got. She blames Tann. She goes down to the mutineers, surrenders to them, and tries to talk it out with Calix. She makes excellent progress, and is about to end the mutiny…
Meanwhile, Tann, out of communication with Kelly, authorises for all the krogan to be awoken to put down the uprising. This is when Spender promises Morda a place on the Council. The krogan assault the mutineers.
Sloane Kelly had basically negotiated an end when the krogan attack. She knows that standing by means the mutineers will be slaughtered; she ends up in the heat of the moment siding with them. On of her security team snipes Calix to death, so Kelly becomes the mutineers de facto leader. She calls a retreat, everyone flees. Its going to be a massacre, and then Kesh steps in. She’s the only one who both Sloane Kelly and Morda will listen too. The mutiny ends.
So, in the end, exile is the only option. The Andromeda Initiative cannot kill the mutineers (self defeating); Tann offers a return to cryo, but no one wants to risk that. When Tann rejects Morda on the Council (and Spender denies making the promise), they choose exile too.
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Post by dm04 on Apr 25, 2017 18:05:41 GMT
I can think of dozen of reasons why an uprising/mutiny would happen and none is believable. OK, spoilery summary of the book Scourge hits Nexus just as the senior crew were waking up. The Nexus is crippled and Addison is the only survivor from the senior staff. She has a severe head injury. With Sloane Kelly’s help, they manage to get enough control of the situation to look at the chain of command. The protocols nominate Tann, an accountant, as next in line (8th), who is then woken up. So an uneasy triumvirate is formed. right
First order of business is survival; namely, life support. Tann reluctantly authorises for LS tech Calix to be awoken, and only him. He demands his team is awoken to fix the mess, which Kelly authorises without consulting Tann. This sets the tone.
Tann is a utilitarian. He makes decisions for the greater good, but is totally inept when it comes to dealing with people’s emotions. Sloane Kelly is passionate; she gets people’s emotional state. She has authoritarian tendencies, and feels they are in a ‘martial law’ situation. Foster Addison has a severe concussion and falls into a deep depression. She ends up indecisive.
Kesh has the best outlook, but Tann is prejudiced against Krogan, so rarely defers to her ideas.
Tann and Sloane Kelly end up distrusting each other. Both of them have to make decisions when the other is out of communication. This comes to a head when Tann sends Kandros (Kelly’s trusted second) out on a scouting mission while she is helping Kesh clear some wreckage. Kelly feels Tann deliberately sent her right hand away to undermine her authority, and her mood darkens when Kandros does not come back. The leadership becomes paranoid, and this starts to infect everyone else.
Calix, the life support tech, has a very, very loyal crew, and he looks out for them. Because of his expertise he can see what is happening, and witnesses a lot of the management arguments. The management also take him for granted; that he is “one of theirs”.
Because of the damage to the Nexus, there are few options. They do not have the life support/food capacity to support all those who are already awake, and do not have the right people awake to effectively repair the Nexus. Tann asks, ineptly, for volunteers to go back into cryo, and wait for a Pathfinder to show up. No one does, but now everyone knows the stakes. Whatever legitimacy the leaders had is now gone, and everyone starts to look to themselves. Hoarding starts, and people sneakily start to wake up their buddies and loved ones.
Meanwhile, Spender is working his corrupt incompetence. He’s wormed his way to Addison’s side because she is so depressed, he licks Tann’s cloaca every chance he gets. He lies and makes promises to all factions that he has no intention of keeping, and so lubricates the paranoia and distrust.
So for a while Calix has been planning to save his crew, and now he makes his move. Spender helps him get to the armoury, security people are killed, and everything kicks off. Desperate people, living on reduced rations, for months, and some without jobs to keep them occupied because the were awoken too soon, basically riot. Therefore: uprising.
Calix and his crew and other disaffected folk end up holding up in one part of the Nexus. Sloane Kelly can see how bad everything has got. She blames Tann. She goes down to the mutineers, surrenders to them, and tries to talk it out with Calix. She makes excellent progress, and is about to end the mutiny…
Meanwhile, Tann, out of communication with Kelly, authorises for all the krogan to be awoken to put down the uprising. This is when Spender promises Morda a place on the Council. The krogan assault the mutineers.
Sloane Kelly had basically negotiated an end when the krogan attack. She knows that standing by means the mutineers will be slaughtered; she ends up in the heat of the moment siding with them. On of her security team snipes Calix to death, so Kelly becomes the mutineers de facto leader. She calls a retreat, everyone flees. Its going to be a massacre, and then Kesh steps in. She’s the only one who both Sloane Kelly and Morda will listen too. The mutiny ends.
So, in the end, exile is the only option. The Andromeda Initiative cannot kill the mutineers (self defeating); Tann offers a return to cryo, but no one wants to risk that. When Tann rejects Morda on the Council (and Spender denies making the promise), they choose exile too. Thanks for sharing this. Reading it, I am still not conviced. While the overall story is ok, the damage, the distrust, the premise as to why the riot hapens in the end is just wrong. It actualy would work IF, and only if, most people aboard the Nexus are some low life stupid idiots. The Nexus is sent 1 year ahead of the arks to build up a forward operation basis for the whole undertaking. This mean... people aboard the Nexus are invited and not just hired, they are all psychical evaluated over and over and over again, they are briefed over and over and over again. In the end, going 600years away with no chance going back, or any hope for rescue/help,EVERYONE knows what is at stakes, everyone knows what lies ahead is pure unknown, everyone knows things do not work out as planned, almost never. So, refusing going back to cryo so more critical pesonel can be awakened? Not going to happen. Kennedy neglecting Addison so she can have a baby in this very unstable situation? Not going to happen. This Calix and the disaffected folk (heck sorry, they seem to be angry because no job, awoken too soon, but refuse going back to cryo? there is a big plot hole right in the middle of its own story.) ... not going to happen. Unless... they are all darn stupid idiots because, where is the motivation, where is the reasoning? Hunker down, barricade somewhere on the Nexus till their supplies are gone and then die? Replace the leadership and then do what the old leaders wanted and this "usurpers" refused, because if they dont do it, they die? They all wait for the holy pathfinder, their grad messiah, to help them. And thats what we see.... the pathfinder shows up and now everyone cooperates, eh wait, there are just the loyalist back on the Nexus. Ok. Long story short, in its own narrative the story is coherent and makes sense, but the premises ramains unbelievable to me. Again, thanks for sharing. At least I know now reading the novel is not going to help me in any way making it more believable .
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Post by klijpope on Apr 25, 2017 18:26:43 GMT
They won't go back to cryo because there's no guarantee they'd ever awake again. They had already faced that once with the 600 year journey, and were not willing to face it again on the say so of a low-level technocrat no one could ever learn to trust. They're also dealing with internalised grief because (non-asari) everyone they ever knew has been dead for 6 centuries. There's a difference between knowing that intellectually and coping with it when they wake up. And just having gone through a prolonged period of grief because it got bound up in workplace issues, I know for a fact people don't make the best, most rational decisions in that situation.
Why would people follow the directions and orders of leaders who they did not choose or expect, and have also do not trust or respect. That's the crux. Lots of very intelligent and motivated and slightly crazy (all prerequisites for the Ai) people, many dealing with crippling grief, and many also with mild brain damage from cryo (see Paradise on Elaaden), losing faith and trust in their obviously incompetent leadership. I will point out that Calix (Corvannus is his first name, or is it last name?) was probably the most respected character in the novel, and it all hinges on his need to protect his crew. He also knows how bad the situation is, and feels striking out has at least as much chance of success as following Tann's direction.
What the book does particularly well is showing how everyone's actions (apart from Spender) are reasonable, given their PoV and personal prejudices and situation, and the information they have at hand.
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Post by klijpope on Apr 25, 2017 18:32:18 GMT
It was because I read Nexus: Uprising I saved Sloane Kelly from the sniper, despite my Sara having got frisky with Reyes after the party.
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dm04
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by dm04 on Apr 25, 2017 19:55:10 GMT
They won't go back to cryo because there's no guarantee they'd ever awake again. They had already faced that once with the 600 year journey, and were not willing to face it again on the say so of a low-level technocrat no one could ever learn to trust. They're also dealing with internalised grief because (non-asari) everyone they ever knew has been dead for 6 centuries. There's a difference between knowing that intellectually and coping with it when they wake up. And just having gone through a prolonged period of grief because it got bound up in workplace issues, I know for a fact people don't make the best, most rational decisions in that situation. Why would people follow the directions and orders of leaders who they did not choose or expect, and have also do not trust or respect. That's the crux. Lots of very intelligent and motivated and slightly crazy (all prerequisites for the Ai) people, many dealing with crippling grief, and many also with mild brain damage from cryo (see Paradise on Elaaden), losing faith and trust in their obviously incompetent leadership. I will point out that Calix (Corvannus is his first name, or is it last name?) was probably the most respected character in the novel, and it all hinges on his need to protect his crew. He also knows how bad the situation is, and feels striking out has at least as much chance of success as following Tann's direction. What the book does particularly well is showing how everyone's actions (apart from Spender) are reasonable, given their PoV and personal prejudices and situation, and the information they have at hand. Remember that movie "2012"? The general premise is: when things go south, people become even more selfish. And that guy wrote a book where he is stating "when things go south, people stick together". I think you would be surprises how true this actualy is. I think some random guy most certainly think this way, better be alive for 6 months and then die a horrible death. But the people aboard the Nexus are not some random guys. Wwill try to explain it with some imaginary numbers. There are 1000 people awake on the Nexus, everything is crippled/defunct and supplies last for only 1000 days. So, unless they fix the tech, everyone is going to die in 1000 days (most likely a horrible dead, as starvation is pretty bad). Obviously, they are incapable of fixing the tech. Now they are confronted with the option: you go back to cryo, so we can wake up 1000 technicians who can fix the problems in 1000 days. Then we can wake you up again. Even when the chance to fix the tech is very small, you are going to do it, because the alternative is "death in 1000 days" (btw knowing when you die is not realy funny). Also, there is this slim chance an Ark shows up, finds the Nexus, fix the problems and they wake up again as well. You say, they already woke up after 600 years, they are not going to cryo again. Why not? They certainly knew what they are doing and got closure before going into cryo. As I said earlier, there are going to be psych evaluations over and over and over again so you get people who are not "emotionaly" distracted this way, becausae if you have people like this, you bring a very unstable element into a very delicate situation, you wont do that and most certainly, the AI leadeship back in the milky way didn't want it either. Next you say, they do not trust a low level technocrat. That is actualy a good point. But then again, there are just two options: go to cryo, wakeup tech personel and eventualy stuff gets fixed, or die. Maybe they rely on themselves to fix stuff... but why are most of them sitting idle in their quarters? Maybe they do not trust the techs that replace them? well, do you remember? They are handpicked, so pretty much experts and profesionals. I know what I can do, if I can not do it, I call someone who can and not going to try to fix it myself... alas, I am an expert and profesional too... not like my brother in law, who thinks he is capable of everything and knows everything, but he can not and do not and makes an idiot out of himself all the time, unless he meets someone who knows even less. But people like that are not going to be aboard the Nexus, and if they are, in this case I say "hell yeah, this uprising is possible" then it is an unbelievable fail at the end of the guys who recruited the people and put them on the Nexus... Back to a previous topic, you speak about "internalised grief" while on some level true, I know a lot of people who would not deal with it, they just would not care (one of the reasons why I do not have a problem with the Ryders showing low emotions becaus dad is dead). And there is this other stuff: all the psych tests and briefings are there to prepare you for exactly this, when you wake up, everyone you knew is long gone. The problem is, it would all make (more) sense if there would be, mostly, random guys aboard the Nexus. But there are not. When you have 100.000 people for the AI, you are going to put your best aboard the Nexus, as the Nexus is the spearhead and most likely under the highest pressure to make things work. Like my brother-in-law, he is a mechanic, but NOONE who is sane would put him aboard an oil-rig, doing so is playing with fire (and lives). If BW want to tell us "but there are such people aboard the Nexus"... then THAT is unbelievable. Such people may be among the regular colonists on the Arks, but certainly not essential personel. Btw people follow leaders, inadept, incompetent leaders, they did not elect all the time. Why would this be any different? There is that one question: what the hell are they trying to accomplish? Do they think anarchy is a solution to the problem? Do they realy thing "disobbeying" (even a stupid leader) is going to fix anything? What if they won? They would replace the hated Tann (or someone else, it does not matter) and then what? They would actualy have to do the very same shit Tann wanted to do and they opposed. Yah great. Idiots do that, actualy that is an insult to common idiots... people without brain act that way. Not even my brother-in-law is that stupid. I gues we should call it off. I am never going to believe it. And I gues I am never going to convice you . So lets agree to disagree and be on our way.
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Post by wellsoul2 on Apr 25, 2017 20:11:04 GMT
I agree that it seems weird to be killing all the human outlaws when there is not that many humans in Andromeda.
Mechs? Do you mean the robot suits that people are in?
I think the human outlaw population problem can be solved with a surprise Cerberus ark in the next MEA.
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