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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 25, 2017 10:36:25 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda has a huge hole that its leaving for other games that follow it to fall in.
Theres not enough people.
The arrival has been a disaster, too many people are dead or isolated, the milky way for all anyone knows is gone. We are barely holding on as individual species save for the Asari who could rebuild their race from a single individual. But even they take a century to reach near adulthood.
We need clones.
I know what you're thinking "You can't clone everything."
I put it to you that Shepard was wrong and that you can.
Cloning in Mass Effect is easy and we know clone data survived from Okeer. Okeer wasnt just cloning Krogan.
Okeer was creating dozens of fully grown fully educated Krogan each more refined than the last. It is possible to make the leap to programming clones to follow your commands.
With Okeers data we could be able to understand the secrets of Khi Tasira the Angaran cloning facility.
What do we do? We have barely enough genetic material between us to sustain our populations aboard the Arks and the Nexus.
We're splintered, fighting everything from Kett to Remnant bots to Roekaar and our own people are forcing us to blast them in random hotzones over radio transmitters.
Drastic measures are needed.
We need clones, an army of them and we need them now. We know Okeers data survived and according to random sand-krogan number 1, that data will make the Krogan great again.
Time is limited.
Because of the 2nd human Pathfinders stupidity our people need to risk war with the Krogan to retreive that data and possibly the drive core while we're at it.
In order to create an army of clones. Using Khi Tasira. We know that the Initiative stole the Normandy blue prints. Its possible to say they have stolen Shepards DNA or even stole another ones of his clones.
From here we could create thousands of super soldiers making our survival in Andromeda finally believable.
The "Shepards" would be responsible for leading the cloned Krogan, their "commanders". Being soldiers the Krogan "Grunts" would be under their control and face down our enemies for their Shepard.
The Kett would be Annihilated.
The Roekaar eaten.
And the Remnant would be fed to a smart Alec Angara for being a big mouth.
Imagine it for a moment, if you would.
This is ZipZap Zip, signing off.
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 25, 2017 10:41:38 GMT
"Master ZipZap, your clone army is ready"
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 25, 2017 11:11:40 GMT
"Master ZipZap, your clone army is ready" Asari are stupid.
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Post by passacaglia on Apr 25, 2017 13:44:36 GMT
Minimum breeding population, for humans at least, is pretty small; estimates are as low as a few hundred. That's a pure genetic variability measure, without accounting for the aid of fertility treatments, automated childcare, and other technology. The MEA writers handwaved the whole question by making the ark populations huge. Cultural changes will be interesting to explore, though, since the asari will be basically "raiding" the other arks for mates unless the other races allow for some kind of "donor" program that doesn't invalidate existing marriage/mating traditions.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 25, 2017 14:19:07 GMT
Minimum breeding population, for humans at least, is pretty small; estimates are as low as a few hundred. That's a pure genetic variability measure, without accounting for the aid of fertility treatments, automated childcare, and other technology. The MEA writers handwaved the whole question by making the ark populations huge. Cultural changes will be interesting to explore, though, since the asari will be basically "raiding" the other arks for mates unless the other races allow for some kind of "donor" program that doesn't invalidate existing marriage/mating traditions. "Its not cheating hunny I'm just ensuring the genetic viability of their species." *Sips Ryncol* *Marches in like a champ*
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Post by fizzypop on Apr 26, 2017 0:05:12 GMT
You don't need a huge population actually for genetic diversity. Around 10,000 to 40,000 is going to have success. You can have success with lower numbers than that, but this number is ideal for full colonization with less risk of issues of inbreeding or accidents. MEA I'm almost sure mentioned taking along frozen embryos as well which means that you would really only need enough women to be implanted with eggs created using a larger population on earth. It is much easier to take along 50-100k embryos from different parents than it is to take along that same amount of live people. Less room and less requirements. Honestly, any sort of generational ship should be equipped with embryos as it is the smartest and easiest solution. It will make some things a little awkward imagine your wife being born from the same birth mother as you, but your DNA being completely different- however it would be the best and easiest solution to genetic diversity.
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Post by timebean on Apr 26, 2017 1:48:12 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda has a huge hole that its leaving for other games that follow it to fall in. Theres not enough people. The arrival has been a disaster, too many people are dead or isolated, the milky way for all anyone knows is gone. We are barely holding on as individual species save for the Asari who could rebuild their race from a single individual. But even they take a century to reach near adulthood. We need clones. etc... This is ZipZap Zip, signing off. I like it. A Shepard army!! Woohoo!! A step further...say that is exactly what is going to happen...almost. The Shep cloning is only successfully achievable by genetic alterations that require...errr......mixing up a bunch of genetic material from Krogan, Human, Asari ,etc. We create the super soldiers that wipe out the Kett and all the enemies of the cluster, and after many generations of strife and reorganization, we rise to be a great cluster of happy folk! 5000 years later...uh...poof! There is some time travel paradox and one of our battleships get sucked into a wormhole (or something). This stranded crew rebuild an empire in this new, strange time. Built on military principles, it becomes a great empire. Sorta...like the Romans.... Abracadabra...errr...basically, it turns out that the Kett that the pathfinder is fighting are our great-great-great x25 grandchildren! Exhalation is their goal, but they have no idea they are exhalting their own ancestors! And all of it...all the misery and death and destruction... the endless Starchild-esque cycle...it's all because of Shep's DNA. I am too tired to think it through...but...ya know...I worked very hard today and overtaxed the bean
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Post by klijpope on Apr 26, 2017 2:25:27 GMT
The Angara are basically a ready-made society of foster parents. Pretty much any anagram family group could handle a couple of Milky Way kids on top of all the others (maybe not Krogan).
They're gonna need kid npcs in the sequel.... Now I want Krogan toddlers!
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 26, 2017 21:46:56 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda has a huge hole that its leaving for other games that follow it to fall in. Theres not enough people. The arrival has been a disaster, too many people are dead or isolated, the milky way for all anyone knows is gone. We are barely holding on as individual species save for the Asari who could rebuild their race from a single individual. But even they take a century to reach near adulthood. We need clones. No, we don't need clones. We need to get everyone out of cryo. Most people are still in there. We've also still got another Ark that hasn't arrived. Finally, the Jill solution: people will be having babies. As viability increases, there will likely be incentives for people to have children, at least to a point but not so many that the Angarans have no room to grow themselves.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 27, 2017 10:20:45 GMT
"Master ZipZap, your clone army is ready" Goddamn it Bioware. You had one job!
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Post by bryanky5 on Apr 27, 2017 11:04:58 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda has a huge hole that its leaving for other games that follow it to fall in. Theres not enough people. The arrival has been a disaster, too many people are dead or isolated, the milky way for all anyone knows is gone. We are barely holding on as individual species save for the Asari who could rebuild their race from a single individual. But even they take a century to reach near adulthood. We need clones. No, we don't need clones. We need to get everyone out of cryo. Most people are still in there. We've also still got another Ark that hasn't arrived. Finally, the Jill solution: people will be having babies. As viability increases, there will likely be incentives for people to have children, at least to a point but not so many that the Angarans have no room to grow themselves. Even with everyone out of Cryo it will take generations to get a population at a respectable level through natural means. 100,000 is barely a city on Earth and they expect to colonise a bunch of different planets.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 27, 2017 14:43:30 GMT
No, we don't need clones. We need to get everyone out of cryo. Most people are still in there. We've also still got another Ark that hasn't arrived. Finally, the Jill solution: people will be having babies. As viability increases, there will likely be incentives for people to have children, at least to a point but not so many that the Angarans have no room to grow themselves. Even with everyone out of Cryo it will take generations to get a population at a respectable level through natural means. 100,000 is barely a city on Earth and they expect to colonise a bunch of different planets. So what? Why do they need to have massive cities instantly? Even with the Vaults fixing environments it will still take time to grow and mine resources necessary to survive. It makes more sense to have a sustainable population the grows only when there is housing and food for them.
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 27, 2017 16:46:52 GMT
Even with everyone out of Cryo it will take generations to get a population at a respectable level through natural means. 100,000 is barely a city on Earth and they expect to colonise a bunch of different planets. So what? Why do they need to have massive cities instantly? To compete with billions of Kett out there. With ME level of technology and automatization this period will be relatively short. 100k of people would easily feed millions and still have free hands for other routines.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 27, 2017 20:44:03 GMT
So what? Why do they need to have massive cities instantly? To compete with billions of Kett out there. Eh. The Kett would likely arrive long before a significant population could be established, even with cloning.
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 27, 2017 21:44:59 GMT
To compete with billions of Kett out there. Eh. The Kett would likely arrive long before a significant population could be established, even with cloning. Well, if anyone takes their time that's Kett. How would you suggest to deal with them though?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 28, 2017 2:18:30 GMT
Eh. The Kett would likely arrive long before a significant population could be established, even with cloning. Well, if anyone takes their time that's Kett. How would you suggest to deal with them though? RemTech. We've got access to a lot of it thanks to Meridian. Use the Remnant that we can likely now control against the Kett.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 28, 2017 2:29:01 GMT
Well, if anyone takes their time that's Kett. How would you suggest to deal with them though? RemTech. We've got access to a lot of it thanks to Meridian. Use the Remnant that we can likely now control against the Kett. Tried that. The remnant fleets nearly got smashed by the Kett.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 28, 2017 2:35:46 GMT
RemTech. We've got access to a lot of it thanks to Meridian. Use the Remnant that we can likely now control against the Kett. Tried that. The remnant fleets nearly got smashed by the Kett. Maybe I'll run into it when I finish the current PT but I don't remember this happening. The Archon was definitely in control of Meridian for a bit, so there was no full force of the Remnant against the Kett. Once the Ryder Twins + SAM wrested control, the Kett lost.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 28, 2017 2:55:34 GMT
Tried that. The remnant fleets nearly got smashed by the Kett. Maybe I'll run into it when I finish the current PT but I don't remember this happening. The Archon was definitely in control of Meridian for a bit, so there was no full force of the Remnant against the Kett. Once the Ryder Twins + SAM wrested control, the Kett lost. Ryder had to use the Scourge agaibst the Kett because they were destroying the Remnant ships.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 28, 2017 3:09:20 GMT
I think part of the limited population stuff is to be part of Ryder's particular story reason for why they can never have an (intelligent spacefaring sapient, that isn't native to familiar lands) army.
That no matter how much they have to fight, that this isn't the same story. There's less stumbling upon people as ME1, or gathering the 'best of the best' as ME2, or 'gathering an army' as ME3. You have to 'make do', and then, hopefully, eventually (as I damn well don't think MEA itself delivered the peak), form yourselves to be an elite group of the cosmos. Key word: form. Like Liara's trilogy progression in some sense - naive and idealistic to begin, but eventually ready to wage war and acquire the secrets necessary to win.
Having a limited population can increase incentive to figure out not just how to beat the enemy, but how to get things correct so you can even make it through the fallout.
I think we'll continue to have MW companions and MP character 'stories', and colonies that grow that we may selectively revisit in some form, but then it'll be about taking this elite section of the species (that are made from the start, not preexisting elite as much) into more and more unknown lands and meeting and fighting and joining with more and more unknown peoples.
A bit annoyed with this as I might have preferred having city exploration of MW capital planets, heh.
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Dean The Not-so Young
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 30, 2017 7:55:42 GMT
The OP was half-joking, but I think cloning is a legitimately good way for the series to move forward to justify a significant/expanded presence for the Andromeda Initiative in the future. The game's never really cared for population statistics, but it would only help. It's not a matter of breeding population, but the industrial/scientific base to create industry enough to be a Big Deal far away, and the population base to be anything but a footnote.
When it comes down to it, the numbers the Arks carried is... not that much. All the humans in Andromeda are less than a major modern city, which itself can hardly claim/colonize entire planets. The Milkywayians might eventually settle the galaxy... but by the time they can, other species really already should have. The numbers just don't support it.
The Andromeda Initiative as-is is probably good enough for Helius. We're almost certainly outnumbered by the Angaara, but they've been dealing with the Kett, and it's obviously a good team effort all-around. We were decisive, mostly because the Kett Empire's expeditionary force didn't care about us, and that's alright.
But that won't be plausible in, say, the Kett's own home cluster. Or in the cluter right next to us- which instead of having tens of thousands of colonists to tap into, will probably only have a few hundred. Or tens. Etc.
So what I could see is... the Hidden Hand of the Benefactor, or Cerberus if they're one and the same, having smuggled in some cloning labs and fabricators aboard the Nexus and having plans to break them out in secret. Create a new population base- hide the clone facilities- and you can more or less ensure extinction doesn't reach Andromeda, even as the Benefactor expects the Reapers to hit the Milky Way.
Imagine if Andromeda 2 works like this. It's a few years later. Everyone in Andromeda is woken up, settled in. Colonies are started, there's plenty of Helius left to settle, but the fear/concern of the greater Kett empire. So we go abroad to deal with them before they come to us, or at least to explore the neighborhood a bit more.
So we go in Andromeda Initiative mk 2, to the next cluster. Maybe in one of the Arks, which serves as the colony ship to the next cluster. We make friends. We find enemies. We get in a lot of trouble... and then bam, at the right moment, Cavalry comes. Friendlies- with guns- save us.
And then we find they're human... which should be impossible, since we should be the first humans in the sector.
In begins the hunt/mystery chase, as the humans-who-shouldn't-be-there either can't or won't give us the answers we need, even as we need their numbers to help the initiative. Implications are... staggering. Unsettling. Dangerous, even- mass-cloning of a species threatens to shift the balance of power in the Initiative. Colonies of clones threaten the borders of would-be allies. Maybe the Kett are at risk of capturing a cloning facility, and all the exaltations they could ever want.
And so we hunt, investigate, and explore, and eventually discover the source of the clones... and have a Big Decision to make. Do we turn it off/destroy it, ending the flood of allies and human clones but giving us better/more stable ties with coalition partners and aliens afraid of being out-populated? Or do we keep it for our own advantage/use, even if it threatens our alliances and risks playing into someone else's plans?
I think that'd be good.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 30, 2017 10:13:54 GMT
^^^ he was more than "half" joking.
Cloning is bad, mmmkay? Especially when you are talking about programming life to be used in an unnatural way.
The entire idea is without conscience. As a joke it is fine, as a real idea it is ethically abominable.
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 30, 2017 12:33:24 GMT
Mmmm, no. Try again with actual reasoning.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 30, 2017 19:40:58 GMT
^^^ he was more than "half" joking. Cloning is bad, mmmkay? Especially when you are talking about programming life to be used in an unnatural way. The entire idea is without conscience. As a joke it is fine, as a real idea it is ethically abominable. Your stated moral opposition to this only makes me want it more.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 30, 2017 21:58:22 GMT
I have no moral opposition to cloning per se. However, these clones should still be allowed to grow up normally. In any case, I think it would be better to take a bunch of "donations" from people and use them to create a bunch of random combinations. That way, though it still leaves us with a lot of related people, at least they're still individuals. I mean, we've got enough clones with the asari. Don't really need more reasons for BioWare to not bother with diverse looks.
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