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Post by Raga on Jun 13, 2017 20:02:24 GMT
"BioWare want to tell "very contemporary stories" with the game"
What's does that even mean? If that *isn't* mindless PR talk, this the closest I've ever seen them come to out and out saying "We intentionally pick controversial topics that are guaranteed to irritate large numbers of people because we can and want to."
Everything I'm seeing about this game is just making my distaste more pronounced.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 13, 2017 20:10:44 GMT
"BioWare want to tell "very contemporary stories" with the game" What's does that even mean? If that *isn't* mindless PR talk, this the closest I've ever seen them come to out and out saying "We intentionally pick controversial topics that are guaranteed to irritate large numbers of people because we can and want to." Everything I'm seeing about this game is just making my distaste more pronounced. Not sure what's the problem? The story can be contemporary no matter of the setting - either in a way of story presentation, or in a sense that the issues presented in it either reflect or could be applied to issues in contemporary world. You know... like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. That doesn't mean that the game's purpose is to be 'controversial' or even 'dated' - just relatable.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 13, 2017 20:27:09 GMT
"BioWare want to tell "very contemporary stories" with the game" What's does that even mean? If that *isn't* mindless PR talk, this the closest I've ever seen them come to out and out saying "We intentionally pick controversial topics that are guaranteed to irritate large numbers of people because we can and want to." Everything I'm seeing about this game is just making my distaste more pronounced. Why would such topics be irritating? Contemporary stories about alienation, corruption and prejudice, oh and mortar-bombing boss creatures with your friends. Yep, that works
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Post by Raga on Jun 13, 2017 20:28:21 GMT
Why do stories have to be "very contemporary" to be relatable? Somebody should hurry up and tell Shakespeare and Mark Twain that (or heck anybody with a story older than say five years to make sure we are getting the "very" part in there). There is arguably no such thing as a "very contemporary" story or theme. Most things worth telling stories about are pretty much timeless. There are definitely "very contemporary" *topics* though and I'm not aware of any instance where they are turned into goalposts in storytelling that don't involve either 1)somebody putting them there because they want to make a moral or political statement about them or 2)putting them there because controversy tends to draw eyes like a dumpster fire.
I'm not saying never bring up contemporary topics. I'm saying having explicit goals of controversy or moralizing usually just makes you look like an opportunistic or pompous ass.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 13, 2017 20:32:45 GMT
I'm saying having explicit goals of controversy or moralizing usually just makes you look like an opportunistic or pompous ass. Nice strawman. And your evidence for such writing issues being in this game is?
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Post by Raga on Jun 13, 2017 20:35:54 GMT
Contemporary stories about alienation, corruption and prejudice, oh and mortar-bombing boss creatures with your friends. Yep, that works These are not "very contemporary" though. See my above post for clarification. People have told stories about those things since forever.
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Post by Raga on Jun 13, 2017 20:38:22 GMT
I'm saying having explicit goals of controversy or moralizing usually just makes you look like an opportunistic or pompous ass. Nice strawman. And your evidence for such writing issues being in this game is? Um, none? Did I ever say there was some? My first post began with "What does this even mean?" to signify I don't in fact know what it means, followed by speculation on what it *could* mean. The rest of this was then me answering why that particular *potential* meaning of "very contemporary" was irritating.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 13, 2017 20:42:36 GMT
Nice strawman. And your evidence for such writing issues being in this game is? Um, none? Did I ever say there was some? My first post began with "What does this even mean?" to signify I don't in fact know what it means, followed by speculation on what it *could* mean. The rest of this was then me answering why that particular *potential* meaning of "very contemporary" was irritating. Got it. As we know so little about this game, what might be *potentially* good or bad could be a mightily long list. Just as well we have 16 months to discuss it in.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 13, 2017 20:50:00 GMT
In hindsight, "very contemporary," appears to have been a red herring. That comment is 3+ years old, after all. while I agree with midnight tea that setting need not dictate contemporaneousness, nor vice versa, I'm pretty sure he was trying to hint at Bioware moving into a new genre. You know, beyond the fantasy and scifi genres of recent years? How they got from there to the squarely scifi of Anthem is anyone's guess, but you know mine: they decided to go after Destiny's market. The timing fits: June 2014: "very contemporary" narration of the E3 video September 2014: Destiny released 2015: EA slide deck showing Bioware contributing to an action game Plenty of time to pivot to scifi and target Destiny.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 13, 2017 21:12:40 GMT
Why do stories have to be "very contemporary" to be relatable? Somebody should hurry up and tell Shakespeare and Mark Twain that (or heck anybody with a story older than say five years to make sure we are getting the "very" part in there). There is arguably no such thing as a "very contemporary" story or theme. Most things worth telling stories about are pretty much timeless. There are definitely "very contemporary" *topics* though and I'm not aware of any instance where they are ncorporated into stories that don't involve either 1)somebody putting them there because they want to make a moral or political statement about them or 2)putting them there because controversy tends to draw eyes like a dumpster fire. I'm not saying never bring up contemporary topics. I'm saying having explicit goals of controversy or moralizing usually just makes you look like an opportunistic or pompous ass. If "contemporary" is a buzzword, so is "timeless". Because even if the message is "timeless", the format or presentation isn't - and if it isn't, the message doesn't necessarily gets across, ergo: it isn't really that relatable. Heck, many people miss a lot of context from older works without in-depth study, even missing the fact that currently-considered-'highbrow' Shakespeare wrote in dick or fart jokes into his work or that his plays in his contemporary times were equivalent of our pop culture (and were also oftentimes controversial AF, even if considering only the fact that theater was banned in London). Times change and so do we with them. And so do our stories or ways we tell them. Video games are the best example of it, being the medium of choice of XXI century. Well then... if you put it that way, it means that pretty much all writers or artists are "opportunistic or pompous asses" Because, as it happens, most have something to say about politics or morals of the world they lived in - if not for 'controversy', then because they've wanted to say something about it. Yes, that includes masters of old. Artists have opinions too, and they use heir craft to express them. That's what art's for, in large part.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 13, 2017 21:35:04 GMT
In hindsight, "very contemporary," appears to have been a red herring. That comment is 3+ years old, after all. while I agree with midnight tea that setting need not dictate contemporaneousness, nor vice versa, I'm pretty sure he was trying to hint at Bioware moving into a new genre. You know, beyond the fantasy and scifi genres of recent years? How they got from there to the squarely scifi of Anthem is anyone's guess, but you know mine: they decided to go after Destiny's market. The timing fits: June 2014: "very contemporary" narration of the E3 video September 2014: Destiny released 2015: EA slide deck showing Bioware contributing to an action game Plenty of time to pivot to scifi and target Destiny. Yeah, I also had a feeling they might have shifted somewhere along the way from a more contemporary setting to what we have now. In the original E3 video from 2014 they showed off a trailer covered in solar panels. It certainly looked like it could belong in a modern-day setting. Not that it would really look out of place in the current game either tbh... but it's enough to make me wonder.
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Post by Raga on Jun 13, 2017 21:36:47 GMT
If "contemporary" is a buzzword, so is "timeless". Not really. Either a narrative structure or a theme has been told over and over since forever or it hasn't. I can't think of a single one that *hasn't* been told over and over since forever in fact. Sure, when something is literally 500 years old, it's translation of nuance starts to break down so severely that it impedes the capacity of non experts to understand it. But how contemporary does the "presentation" have to be in order for this to *not* be the case? Is Star Wars too old? The Lord of the Rings? How about the Wizard of Oz? And besides, I don't think they are talking about "very contemporary" in the context of format. Perhaps they are. But that still begs the question of "what does that even mean?" How does one make a "very contemporary" presentation/format of a story in a game? I think it is either vacuous PR talk or they are talking about "very contemporary" *topics.* Those are the only two things that make any sort of sense. Having something to say (or more importantly asking questions) and making saying that something a tentpole of the whole project are not the same thing. It's the difference between say the TV show Black Mirror and Atlas Shrugged, which I've heard accused of many things but being fine storytelling isn't one of them.
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Post by Raga on Jun 13, 2017 21:42:48 GMT
In hindsight, "very contemporary," appears to have been a red herring. That comment is 3+ years old, after all. while I agree with midnight tea that setting need not dictate contemporaneousness, nor vice versa, I'm pretty sure he was trying to hint at Bioware moving into a new genre. You know, beyond the fantasy and scifi genres of recent years? How they got from there to the squarely scifi of Anthem is anyone's guess, but you know mine: they decided to go after Destiny's market. The timing fits: June 2014: "very contemporary" narration of the E3 video September 2014: Destiny released 2015: EA slide deck showing Bioware contributing to an action game Plenty of time to pivot to scifi and target Destiny. This seems the most likely answer.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 13, 2017 23:37:38 GMT
If "contemporary" is a buzzword, so is "timeless". Not really. Either a narrative structure or a theme has been told over and over since forever or it hasn't. I can't think of a single one that *hasn't* been told over and over since forever in fact. Oy, that's quite a cop out. You're talking about super-vague themes or ill-defined "narrative structures", while ignoring that just because a "theme" has been told over and over doesn't change the fact that it's usually been told differently across times and different audiences (and mediums), both in terms of format or approach to the topic. A theme of love written in an egalitarian society that is open to all kinds of relationships will ultimately be written differently than love as it was understood in times of medieval England, for example.
Even the 'classics' we consider 'timeless' are 'timeless' predominantly because we find something that resonates with us - everything else is just relegated to historical footnote, including "classics" of old that we can't find much to relate to anymore... or why we have artists that were "ahead of their times" that are suddenly catapulted to relevance long after their death. Or why the epitome of medieval pop culture like Shakespeare's works is now considered high-brow. Some things will resonate across humanity for the longest time, sure - but even those things are not immune to change or change of how it's expressed.
There's also no "timeless" toolset or 'structure' that is applicable to all media at all times. We have rules and shorthands that serve us well, but neither they're static, nor something we don't continually update or interpret, especially with art's tendency to continually transgress boundaries. And it's especially noticeable these days, with new ways of telling stories emerging at amazing speeds and old forms and rules not really working for them anymore - hence constant searches for new approaches and experiments with form.
Ultimately, at its base, art is a language and that language - just like normal ones - evolves with use.
Yes, Star Wars is actually getting a little old - why do you think we get NEW Star Wars now, if not to revitalize the brand?
Lord Of The Rings has also been 'updated' through its super-successful movie adaptation. Plus - while I'm sure LOTR will stay a classic, even if for its role of popularizing fantasy genre, I'm fairly confident our generation is now way more wild about "A Song Of Ice And Fire", which is our contemporary fantasy epic.
Wizard of Oz I can't tell much about, because I'm not familiar with it - but I'm fairly sure that "Harry Potter" is way bigger than it now.
I refer you to top paragraph where I point out that "themes" are written differently across different times and audiences.
Topics, themes. Potayto, potahto. Both words are synonyms of one another, so this just seems like an attempt at trivialization of unspecified things you seem not to like... or just trying to find things to complain about.
Why are you suddenly accusing Bioware or Anthem of making a 'tentpole of something' just because they said they want to tell a contemporary story? Not only you're assuming a lot from very little we know for now, I think you're confusing things.
I mean, the whole argument is bogus. "Atlas Shrugged" is accused of many thing but not fine storytelling... because, from what I know, it's not fine storytelling or much of anything else. On the other hand, "Animal Farm" is considered to be fine storytelling, while at the same its scathing political message is "a tentpole of the whole project".
In other words - a difference lays between good and bad art, or good and bad idea or argument - it has nothing to do with how strong or politicized the message in given artwork is. A given message can be vague and subtle or hit like a brick. If it resonates with its intended audience (or any audience across times), then it resonates - if it doesn't, then it falls flat.
I mean... dunno - the whole things appears to be you not liking the possibility that the game will either contain something or tell it the way you don't approve even if its core "theme" (if you strip everything else from it) would be "timeless" either way.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 13, 2017 23:44:26 GMT
Okay, I've edited & cleaned-up the OP and updated the Dev list. If you can think of anyone I've missed, gimme a shout!
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Post by azarhal on Jun 14, 2017 0:04:40 GMT
In hindsight, "very contemporary," appears to have been a red herring. That comment is 3+ years old, after all. while I agree with midnight tea that setting need not dictate contemporaneousness, nor vice versa, I'm pretty sure he was trying to hint at Bioware moving into a new genre. You know, beyond the fantasy and scifi genres of recent years? How they got from there to the squarely scifi of Anthem is anyone's guess, but you know mine: they decided to go after Destiny's market. The timing fits: June 2014: "very contemporary" narration of the E3 video September 2014: Destiny released 2015: EA slide deck showing Bioware contributing to an action game Plenty of time to pivot to scifi and target Destiny. Yeah, I also had a feeling they might have shifted somewhere along the way from a more contemporary setting to what we have now. In the original E3 video from 2014 they showed off a trailer covered in solar panels. It certainly looked like it could belong in a modern-day setting. Not that it would really look out of place in the current game either tbh... but it's enough to make me wonder. Oh, is that one of the "huge pointy rocks" in the distance? Looks like it. Also, I think people haven't really paid attention to the art in the gameplay trailer. Everything is used, dirty, rusty, very mechanical. The big quadripod use green bags instead of containers to transport stuff. Bags! There is copper mugs, potteries, a balance to weight vegetables, carpets, etc in the market, nothing really look "scifi" there outside some of the eyeglass people are wearing. The gate/dock to the outside has two railguns on each side and you can count the bullets (either the unused or the used ones, lol)...and they look like normal bullets. The Colossus and Ranger don't look more high-tech than anything Stark created and Ironman is "contemporary". I think what throws off people is that the place doesn't look like Earth.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 14, 2017 0:17:27 GMT
Yeah, I also had a feeling they might have shifted somewhere along the way from a more contemporary setting to what we have now. In the original E3 video from 2014 they showed off a trailer covered in solar panels. It certainly looked like it could belong in a modern-day setting. Not that it would really look out of place in the current game either tbh... but it's enough to make me wonder. Oh, is that one of the "huge pointy rocks" in the distance? Looks like it. Also, I think people haven't really paid attention to the art in the gameplay trailer. Everything is used, dirty, rusty, very mechanical. The big quadripod use green bags instead of containers to transport stuff. Bags! There is copper mugs, potteries, a balance to weight vegetables, carpets, etc in the market, nothing really look "scifi" there outside some of the eyeglass people are wearing. The gate/dock to the outside has two railguns on each side and you can count the bullets (either the unused or the used ones, lol)...and they look like normal bullets. The Colossus and Ranger don't look more high-tech than anything Stark created and Ironman is "contemporary". I think what throws off people is that the place doesn't look like Earth. Struggling off-world colony maybe? Now having to salvage and scrounge to get by...? It's "futuristic", but hard to say how far. Do we have ftl travel or did we stumble across some other way to get here (wormhole/portal/alien tech)? Is the tech we use ours or have we re-purposed tech that was already here from the older civilization/Scars?
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Post by azarhal on Jun 14, 2017 0:28:42 GMT
Oh, is that one of the "huge pointy rocks" in the distance? Looks like it. Also, I think people haven't really paid attention to the art in the gameplay trailer. Everything is used, dirty, rusty, very mechanical. The big quadripod use green bags instead of containers to transport stuff. Bags! There is copper mugs, potteries, a balance to weight vegetables, carpets, etc in the market, nothing really look "scifi" there outside some of the eyeglass people are wearing. The gate/dock to the outside has two railguns on each side and you can count the bullets (either the unused or the used ones, lol)...and they look like normal bullets. The Colossus and Ranger don't look more high-tech than anything Stark created and Ironman is "contemporary". I think what throws off people is that the place doesn't look like Earth. Struggling off-world colony maybe? Now having to salvage and scrounge to get by...? It's "futuristic", but hard to say how far. Do we have ftl travel or did we stumble across some other way to get here (wormhole/portal/alien tech)? Is the tech we use ours or have we re-purposed tech that was already here from the older civilization/Scars? Or was it aliens that crash landed on Earth and did something to the planet forcing humans behind walls (aka Shaper Storms).
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 14, 2017 0:42:21 GMT
Struggling off-world colony maybe? Now having to salvage and scrounge to get by...? It's "futuristic", but hard to say how far. Do we have ftl travel or did we stumble across some other way to get here (wormhole/portal/alien tech)? Is the tech we use ours or have we re-purposed tech that was already here from the older civilization/Scars? Or was it aliens that crash landed on Earth and did something to the planet forcing humans behind walls (aka Shaper Storms). They did mention at one point though that this isn't Earth.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 14, 2017 1:01:30 GMT
Or was it aliens that crash landed on Earth and did something to the planet forcing humans behind walls (aka Shaper Storms). They did mention at one point though that this isn't Earth. I though that too, but I haven't been able to find the source again. But yeah, the fauna kinda spell "Not Earth!". Maybe aliens displaced humanity, kinda like in Dark City (a movie).
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 14, 2017 1:06:45 GMT
They did mention at one point though that this isn't Earth. I though that too, but I haven't been able to find the source again. But yeah, the fauna kinda spell "Not Earth!". Maybe aliens displaced humanity, kinda like in Dark City (a movie). I'm not sure they said it. Actually in the interview I remember him refusing to say what planet it was.
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 14, 2017 1:15:45 GMT
I though that too, but I haven't been able to find the source again. But yeah, the fauna kinda spell "Not Earth!". Maybe aliens displaced humanity, kinda like in Dark City (a movie). I'm not sure they said it. Actually in the interview I remember him refusing to say what planet it was. They only said something akin to "in the world of Anthem" - though it's hard to say that they meant in terms of place or story. Anyway, if it's Earth, it doesn't look like Earth anymore - I'm fairly sure we don't have rock formations like the ones shown in the gameplay footage. So if it's our little planet, it might as well not be it, it's this different. Suggestion: what if it's a different planet but... alternative Earth? Remember the Shaper storm and the big, glowing 'portal' of sorts (it is likely portal, because the "player" first asks if we should fly into it, and then another said: "see ya on the other side")? Maybe the story spins around the concept of world-melding or portals through time and space?
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Post by themikefest on Jun 14, 2017 1:16:35 GMT
DA the franchise is not at stake. As such. I'm sure the next DA game will do fine. I'm not worried Why would they have to become like the Anthem game? If that were to happen, why would I want to buy DA and ME if I can get it all with the anthem thing? If anything I would want Bioware to continue with the way they been going with DA and ME. Let the anthem be its own thing.
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,705 Likes: 13,029
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 14, 2017 1:45:19 GMT
I'm not sure they said it. Actually in the interview I remember him refusing to say what planet it was. They only said something akin to "in the world of Anthem" - though it's hard to say that they meant in terms of place or story. Anyway, if it's Earth, it doesn't look like Earth anymore - I'm fairly sure we don't have rock formations like the ones shown in the gameplay footage. So if it's our little planet, it might as well not be it, it's this different. Suggestion: what if it's a different planet but... alternative Earth? Remember the Shaper storm and the big, glowing 'portal' of sorts (it is likely portal, because the "player" first asks if we should fly into it, and then another said: "see ya on the other side")? Maybe the story spins around the concept of world-melding or portals through time and space? I'm leaning more towards terraforming technology gone awry. So this is either some sort of alien planet colonized by humans or Earth after humans attacked the terraforming technology brought by alien invaders.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on Jun 14, 2017 1:51:16 GMT
They only said something akin to "in the world of Anthem" - though it's hard to say that they meant in terms of place or story. Anyway, if it's Earth, it doesn't look like Earth anymore - I'm fairly sure we don't have rock formations like the ones shown in the gameplay footage. So if it's our little planet, it might as well not be it, it's this different. Suggestion: what if it's a different planet but... alternative Earth? Remember the Shaper storm and the big, glowing 'portal' of sorts (it is likely portal, because the "player" first asks if we should fly into it, and then another said: "see ya on the other side")? Maybe the story spins around the concept of world-melding or portals through time and space? I'm leaning more towards terraforming technology gone awry. So this is either some sort of alien planet colonized by humans or Earth after humans attacked the terraforming technology brought by alien invaders. We should probably bring this discussion to the Setting, story, lore thread.
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