caridounette
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by caridounette on Apr 30, 2017 21:58:23 GMT
I can agree with that. At least some redundancy is needed to give players context and give them threads to pull on if they want to know a character more. That's where writing becomes important. But I feel convo mechanisms are often overlooked as a way to improve the experience and let you build your story. The game got bigger (wider environments, more quests, more recorded lines) but not much has been done to help the player navigate it in a meaningful manner.
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caridounette
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Post by caridounette on Apr 30, 2017 22:48:31 GMT
MEA varried between two and four dialogue options per wheel for the same reason that ME2 inconsistently ranged between two to five options per dialogue wheel- because you don't want to use all possible options on the dialogue wheel for all conversation points, because word count makes quantity and 'quality' a zero-sum trade off. The word budget is fixed- there must be a decision of when to spread words out for length (providing a general arc) or duplication of resources (providing for role-playing). Which, again, comes down to 'what will you remove to offer more dialogue options.' That's not something you can wave off by saying Bioware is afraid- you have to make a judgement/recommendation of what, specifically, will be cut. You've raised a specific issue- the number of dialogue options. There's a specific way to improve that when faced with a zero-sum context of a word budget. What, specifically, gets cut that matches and allows those redundant narrative paths? Im not sure why youre so intent in cutting dialogue, where as im talking about how the dialogue is woven together. Like how you get to access the dialogue with the character so you get the experience you feel fits your Ryder's relation with a sqadmate. In ME1, most of it was just info dump on alien races. Nothing too personal, but useful in itself. And the word count was low. Then it grew more personal in ME2, with loyalty missions, and then bonding personal moments in ME3. MEA frontloads all of it with little mechanisms to let you anticipate what youre getting into with a sqadmate. There's a lack of INFORMED player agency. So if I wanted to stay only professional with Cora, I shouldnt acess the 'lets plant flowers together' moment but could listen to how Asari tactics are important to her. Again, nothing should keep the player from going back to the unused dialogue threads later if it then fits the relationship. So there: make the actual dialogue (the set word count, not even rewritting, jsut how its distributed) into 4 small character arcs that you can visit in the order you want or stop following if you decide to (idk lets say Ryder is pissed at Liam for his big mistake and decides not to continue bonding-emotional dialogue with him). Dont like Asari commando blah blah? You dont have to hear it outside of the asari ark mission. Dont persue this dialogue arc if its not for you / for your Ryder. same amount of recorded words, more meaningful development.
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smellycatbutts
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Post by smellycatbutts on May 1, 2017 8:49:27 GMT
Asari are a joke. Shepard killed thousands of asari. One little human could easily wipe out the tentacle heads.
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Post by zipzap2000 on May 1, 2017 12:54:34 GMT
Have we seen an Asari commando unit doing anything other than getting completely obliterated yet? When was the last time you saw a ninja, Frank? Exactly. *Sips Ryncol*
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Post by Sifr on May 1, 2017 13:08:56 GMT
Are we certain that "Asari Commando" isn't simply code for "Stripper"... I mean, it kinda fits?
(And would make Cora's backstory far more interesting)
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 17:11:56 GMT
"Weather here is crap. We used to have much better weather on Thesia...I was on Thesia because I was serving as an asari commando at the time." "My day was great. It reminded me of this one time in Asari band camp..." In the MEA universe, the movie series is called Asari Pie. And the pie is - wait for it - blueberry.
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Post by SofNascimento on May 1, 2017 17:13:07 GMT
Are we certain that "Asari Commando" isn't simply code for "Stripper"... I mean, it kinda fits? (And would make Cora's backstory far more interesting) Strippers in Andromeda seem to be using armor so you might be into something there.
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Post by Sifr on May 1, 2017 20:49:49 GMT
In the MEA universe, the movie series is called Asari Pie. And the pie is - wait for it - blueberry. Nadia is a human exchange student, Oz is a sensitive Krogan, Michelle is a Quarian who's experimented with an "emergency induction port" one time on her Pilgrimage, the "MILF Guys" are two Matrons with a fetish for Matriarchs and Aethyta plays the main character's embarrassing dad. Yeah, I'd totally watch the Asari remake of this movie.
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Post by Eterna on May 1, 2017 21:09:34 GMT
It's almost as bad as Miranda mentioning how she is perfect and has daddy issues in every conversation.
Or how Thane mentions in every convo that he is dying and has a son.
Oh right, the companions from the past trilogy are exempt from criticism. Boo andromeda!
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Post by Steelcan on May 1, 2017 21:40:12 GMT
It's almost as bad as Miranda mentioning how she is perfect and has daddy issues in every conversation. Or how Thane mentions in every convo that he is dying and has a son. Oh right, the companions from the past trilogy are exempt from criticism. Boo andromeda! Fine what about Legion or Mordin then? Sure certain aspects of their character are bound to be repeated, Cora seems to be getting particular flak for it because there's such little effort expended on expanding her character beyond that. With Mordin you have his humorous observations on the Normandy, his "sex" talk, his outlook on the role of philosophy and art among the Collectors, "I am the very model of a scientist salarian", all in addition to his content on the genophage modification project. With Cora you get a half-assed explanation of why the chain of command is less a chain and more a loose collection of circles and one conversation about gardening, the rest is asari. Now admittedly I am comparing the best of BioWare companions against one of the mid to worst ones, but I think the point still stands.
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Eterna
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Post by Eterna on May 2, 2017 0:39:53 GMT
It's almost as bad as Miranda mentioning how she is perfect and has daddy issues in every conversation. Or how Thane mentions in every convo that he is dying and has a son. Oh right, the companions from the past trilogy are exempt from criticism. Boo andromeda! Fine what about Legion or Mordin then? Sure certain aspects of their character are bound to be repeated, Cora seems to be getting particular flak for it because there's such little effort expended on expanding her character beyond that. With Mordin you have his humorous observations on the Normandy, his "sex" talk, his outlook on the role of philosophy and art among the Collectors, "I am the very model of a scientist salarian", all in addition to his content on the genophage modification project. With Cora you get a half-assed explanation of why the chain of command is less a chain and more a loose collection of circles and one conversation about gardening, the rest is asari. Now admittedly I am comparing the best of BioWare companions against one of the mid to worst ones, but I think the point still stands. Cora has her entire arc of coming to terms with the fact that she was not made pathfinder. She also has issues with hero worship and figuring out that she is not a leader. She also has plenty of banter with other characters and situations that reveal more anout her.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on May 2, 2017 1:12:50 GMT
Fine what about Legion or Mordin then? Sure certain aspects of their character are bound to be repeated, Cora seems to be getting particular flak for it because there's such little effort expended on expanding her character beyond that. With Mordin you have his humorous observations on the Normandy, his "sex" talk, his outlook on the role of philosophy and art among the Collectors, "I am the very model of a scientist salarian", all in addition to his content on the genophage modification project. With Cora you get a half-assed explanation of why the chain of command is less a chain and more a loose collection of circles and one conversation about gardening, the rest is asari. Now admittedly I am comparing the best of BioWare companions against one of the mid to worst ones, but I think the point still stands. Cora has her entire arc of coming to terms with the fact that she was not made pathfinder. She also has issues with hero worship and figuring out that she is not a leader. She also has plenty of banter with other characters and situations that reveal more anout her. SHUSH before the "cora needs to be made pathfinder" brigade hears
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Post by Steelcan on May 2, 2017 1:44:36 GMT
Fine what about Legion or Mordin then? Sure certain aspects of their character are bound to be repeated, Cora seems to be getting particular flak for it because there's such little effort expended on expanding her character beyond that. With Mordin you have his humorous observations on the Normandy, his "sex" talk, his outlook on the role of philosophy and art among the Collectors, "I am the very model of a scientist salarian", all in addition to his content on the genophage modification project. With Cora you get a half-assed explanation of why the chain of command is less a chain and more a loose collection of circles and one conversation about gardening, the rest is asari. Now admittedly I am comparing the best of BioWare companions against one of the mid to worst ones, but I think the point still stands. Cora has her entire arc of coming to terms with the fact that she was not made pathfinder. She also has issues with hero worship and figuring out that she is not a leader. She also has plenty of banter with other characters and situations that reveal more anout her. Hero worship...of asari banter ...about asari
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 4:55:16 GMT
Cora's character would have worked better if she was an actual asari. Sometimes I wonder if that was the case early in development but that seems unlikely. I don't get this comment? Why would it work better It would completely miss the point of her character. Cora taking about the asari is no different then tommy lee jones taking about that Japanese. It's not hare to understand that culture of being when they inter act mix together. Comment like these are no different then kids say they can't eat their food because their pea's touched there mashed potatoes.
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 5:00:51 GMT
Asari are a joke. Shepard killed thousands of asari. One little human could easily wipe out the tentacle heads. After what I saw at 3:20 the last thing I would call Asari are a joke.
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 5:03:45 GMT
Cora has her entire arc of coming to terms with the fact that she was not made pathfinder. She also has issues with hero worship and figuring out that she is not a leader. She also has plenty of banter with other characters and situations that reveal more anout her. Hero worship...of asari banter ...about asari More like her get out of hero worship and her learning to think on her own and not be so self conscious of her biotics. The reason why she even like is the Asari is because they were the first group to accept her as who she is as a human biotic.
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 5:08:33 GMT
It's almost as bad as Miranda mentioning how she is perfect and has daddy issues in every conversation. Or how Thane mentions in every convo that he is dying and has a son. Oh right, the companions from the past trilogy are exempt from criticism. Boo andromeda! Fine what about Legion or Mordin then? Sure certain aspects of their character are bound to be repeated, Cora seems to be getting particular flak for it because there's such little effort expended on expanding her character beyond that. With Mordin you have his humorous observations on the Normandy, his "sex" talk, his outlook on the role of philosophy and art among the Collectors, "I am the very model of a scientist salarian", all in addition to his content on the genophage modification project. With Cora you get a half-assed explanation of why the chain of command is less a chain and more a loose collection of circles and one conversation about gardening, the rest is asari. Now admittedly I am comparing the best of BioWare companions against one of the mid to worst ones, but I think the point still stands. The chain of command thing is a Alec issue not a Cora issue. She complain about it because it unusual and make no sense...which it does not . Alec does not need to make Ryder a pather finder to save him, he just need to give him a helmet. As we see with the other path finders they don't need to be alive to be passed over and only who is picked can do it at the SAM node. People who complain about this miss the fact that this all happen because Alec was covering his ass. And the plant complaint...really, is that something to complain about?
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Post by Element Zero on May 2, 2017 5:17:35 GMT
Cora gets a lot of backlash for the amount of time she mentions serving with the Asari, and it indeed can be annoying, but most other squadmates do this as well. I mean, how many times Liam mentioned HUS-T1? Or Vetra her sister and her smuggling carrear? Or PeeBee saying she needs to move and wants to explore? Or Jaal with "Angarians are open with their feelings", and so on. That's doesn't have to be a problem, but it can get annoying sometimes. What you point out goes beyond a writing problem, its also a conversation mecanisms problem to me. its like they didnt figure out meaningful conversation trees and dumped all info together. Makes it highly repetitive and kills the feeling of a 'bonding arc' with the characters. How about using the actual system (professional/casual/emotional/thinker) to get to know specific sides of characters? Thhat would have helped. Like if you go casual with Cora, she'd chew you about not being the leader she would have wanted and eventually would put her guard down and enjoy herself in the adventure. If you go proessionnal with her, she's ok with you much quicker but you never get her sending you poems and talking about growing a garden comes way later or only if you switch to emotional with her. Emotional for the poetry and flowers but also having her be a 'big sister' to Ryder (like the side she shows when helping the younger asari on the Asari Ark). If you go with the thinker/scientific approach, then you get to talk shop and discuss her biotics and Huntresses. I could figure out something for Liam just as well: professionnel: chew him about being too casual about the job.. he doesnt like you too much at first but after he makes his big mistakes, he comes around and realizes why youre a stickler sometimes. casual: you 2 get along from the get go and bro it up, and you get that drink on the citadel on the dirty coach much earlier then professionnal Ryder (before his LM as it is right now) emotional: mistakes are made for learning, Ryder is understanding of the hotheadness, the team is a family thinker/scientifc approach: Lets hear about HUSTL and tactical teamwork I could go on... But honestly, I fear Bioware is just to afraid to make choices right now and offer strong narrative threads because it would 'force the player' out of being able to access everything at ounce. So they kinda put your soup, meal and dessert all in the same plate and be like 'you get everything right now! thats freedom for you!'. Suprise, it doesnt taste so great. This would be great, but that turns into a lot of dialogue/VA work in a game of this size. We'd have likely had to sacrifice all of those believable NPCs living in the cluster to balance the "VA word-count". Then, we'd have complaints about how lifeless the setting was. It's a tough situation. As much as I'd like the conversations you describe, I think the game really need those interactive NPCs everywhere. I still got to know my crew, even if they were a bit one-track in their conversations. EDIT: I see that the VA budget and line count has already been discussed. I don't think the idea of letting people encounter only the scenes they trigger is efficient. You don't spend time and money developing tons of content that many will ever see. ME2 did a bit of this, but the circumstance was completely different, necessitating it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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eterna
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Post by Eterna on May 2, 2017 5:21:01 GMT
Cora has her entire arc of coming to terms with the fact that she was not made pathfinder. She also has issues with hero worship and figuring out that she is not a leader. She also has plenty of banter with other characters and situations that reveal more anout her. Hero worship...of asari banter ...about asari Nope. As someone who took Cora on almost every mission you are wrong.
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smellycatbutts
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by smellycatbutts on May 2, 2017 7:23:51 GMT
Asari are a joke. Shepard killed thousands of asari. One little human could easily wipe out the tentacle heads. After what I saw at 3:20 the last thing I would call Asari are a joke. Nope. Still a fucking joke. The blue tentacle head has to use all that power when all Shep has to do is run and gun it to complete any mission in game. BW goes to all this trouble to try and prove that Asari are some master race, but they all die like dogs just like the rest before the mighty Shepard. Fuck'em.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Light on May 2, 2017 7:50:23 GMT
Asari are a joke. Shepard killed thousands of asari. One little human could easily wipe out the tentacle heads. After what I saw at 3:20 the last thing I would call Asari are a joke. And at 4:10 - 4:22 she turns back into the joke. She is 'all-powerful' but not smart enough to avoid the trap and not powerful enough to break out.
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 8:00:14 GMT
After what I saw at 3:20 the last thing I would call Asari are a joke. And at 4:10 - 4:22 she turns back into the joke. She is 'all-powerful' but not smart enough to avoid the trap and not powerful enough to break out. just because you fell into a trap does not mean she not dangerously powerful. Hell, she was still killing dudes while she was in the trap. Aria is the one person my Shepard knew they could not take out in a fair fight.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Light on May 2, 2017 8:02:37 GMT
A 'fair fight' is for people planning to lose. Fight to win.
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 8:04:59 GMT
After what I saw at 3:20 the last thing I would call Asari are a joke. Nope. Still a fucking joke. The blue tentacle head has to use all that power when all Shep has to do is run and gun it to complete any mission in game. BW goes to all this trouble to try and prove that Asari are some master race, but they all die like dogs just like the rest before the mighty Shepard. Fuck'em. wait what? Nothing you just said made sense. You just said aria is a joke because she used more power to take out solders while shepard does not need to if he's a solder. That doesn't make them a joke if they use dark matter from their bodies in such a force even commander shepard is stunned by it as they stand at a distance. Please use a better excuse.
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 8:07:01 GMT
A 'fair fight' is for people planning to lose. Fight to win. that's a fine way to think when you're facing some who can pull you across the way with a lash and nuke you with her biotic blast.
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