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Post by abaris on May 1, 2017 9:50:13 GMT
Still, Ryder hasn't done half bad for someone who's only 22. If we contrast it to this point in their father or Shepard's careers; That's understood. The problem lies in the dialogue choices. Most of the time you can't come back with a snide comment when your abilities are questioned. If I were Ryder, pushed into a role I didn't desire with the added baggage of losing my father, I would have some choice words for the ones questioning my abilities on a regular basis. Ryder's fine in other aspects of the game, but I have to repeat something I said earlier. The word pathfinder sounds like boy scout to me. Even more so since pathfinder is literally the word for their German equivalent. Pfadfinder. And since German ist my first language I can't help seeing a child roaming the woods instead of a respectable leader. |
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Post by duskwanderer on May 1, 2017 10:35:56 GMT
Ryder simply lacks an assertive presence. He's far too accommodating. He apologizes too much, and barely asserts himself. And a lot of the assertive choices are considered wrong, like calling out the krogan. That's the point though, Ryder was intentionally written as someone still learning how to be a leader. In comparison to their father, Alec Ryder demonstrated good leadership skills, a strong command presence and people didn't hesitate when he gave them a direct order. He had the benefit of being older, more experienced and having N7 training, all of which prepared him and made him the logical choice to lead the Pathfinder team. Ryder is young, inexperienced and doesn't have half of the badass credentials of their father, so has to figure out how they can possibly replace him on the fly. They stumble, make mistakes and don't always project a sense of immediate authority that makes people shut up and listen. Still, Ryder hasn't done half bad for someone who's only 22. If we contrast it to this point in their father or Shepard's careers; Alec was 20 when he went through the Charon Relay and 28 during the First Contact War (where his first kill occurred), while Shepard was 22/23/24 when they went through either the Skyllian Blitz on Elysium, survived a Thresher Maw attack on Akuze or massacred Batarian slavers on Torfan. There's a limit, though. I can understand you to an extent, but in the end, Ryder was too much of a pushover. |
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Post by themikefest on May 1, 2017 14:02:24 GMT
Yep. Ryder lacked a backbone
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 14:11:04 GMT
I think it's that Ryder understands that he is mortal, and not a soldier, so he bends and weasels more than Shepard who actually does get killed for his/her troubles... I would love to see Ryder grow a pair of... new convo options in the next PT, along the lines of "How about I f**k your sh** up" he does on Voeld. He has it in him, if they continue with him, he will need to be able to do that more.
Shepard did grow out from his "yes, Sir!" feel in ME1 rather nicely, Ryder certainly can as well. By the end of the game, he has effectively overcame the Nexus-wide nostalgia for his father, so he can start walking way heavier and way more controversial things, and say: I am Ryder, that's why.
TBH, I really liked that SAM was not a sexbot like Scorpio or EDI, but remaind carefully neutral. But with the psychotic, hostile AI, two voices in Ryder's head might actually become real. Of course it was optional, but omg, how awesome would that have been.... well, imo, and stuff.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
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Post by Obadiah on May 1, 2017 17:53:23 GMT
You guys think SAM actually prompts Ryder with the mining and terminal info? You know it probably just recorded those prompts and they auto trip off based on clicks in the Nomad, or scans from the Omni tool.
SAM is probably off with that rogue AI somwhere plotting the downfall or synthesis of organics.
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Post by colfoley on May 1, 2017 20:40:07 GMT
I think the vaults are worse than SAM in making Ryder seem kinda inconsequential. SAM tells Ryder where to go and what button to push, Ryder pushes the button, and then the vaults do all the hard work. All the planning and all the work was done by the Jardaan. Ryder just happens to be the one that flips the switch and takes credit for it all. I never thought of this, but it's sort of true. Also, dad determined the vaults' purpose, so Ryder can't even take credit for the discovery. I don't really have a problem with the character; but I can see how it might be annoying to others. SAM's incessant nagging is my sole complaint that doesn't involve a bug. I can't imagine what the hell they were thinking with the non-stop, repetitive reminders. This desperately needs a patch, even if it's a lot of work. this comes from an interview with Patrick Weekes I read once where he said you always need to make sure the player knows what to do next. And since Montreal is a rookie studio... Besides as annoying as i found SAM he was a breath of fresh air compared to th way Tomb Raider or Uncharted handled such things where you MAY get a hint...if you are lucky...after twenty minutes of staring at a puzzle. |
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Post by kenshen19 on May 1, 2017 20:40:12 GMT
Like when? I can not think of even one instance that the dialog options varied to that degree in MEA. oh look Calida is hanging on the edge..... Iamma gonna press da prompt and givah' a lava bath.*toll That wasn't from dialog which I meant and just for the record I am 2 for 2 on that shot. The first time I took it because I was still so mad at PeeBee for how we reached the surface of that planet. |
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on May 1, 2017 21:35:45 GMT
My only issue with Ryder is the inability to make more aggressive/direct/renegade choices.
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Post by abaris on May 1, 2017 21:46:01 GMT
My only issue with Ryder is the inability to make more aggressive/direct/renegade choices. Doesn't have to be Renegade. More aggressive choices, period. If someone's constantly in my face, like Addison, I want an appropriate comeback. |
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Post by colfoley on May 1, 2017 23:08:10 GMT
It just seems weird and a little sad that people seem to equate 'being aggressive' to only the Shepard brand. IE punching reporters in the face 'I'll cut your testicles off and feed them to a Krogan,' etc. etc. Ryder has plenty of opprotunity to be aggressive. I'll even say the line specifically when dealing with Addison 'don't manipulate me' is inherently aggressive.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on May 1, 2017 23:19:20 GMT
I never thought of this, but it's sort of true. Also, dad determined the vaults' purpose, so Ryder can't even take credit for the discovery. I don't really have a problem with the character; but I can see how it might be annoying to others. SAM's incessant nagging is my sole complaint that doesn't involve a bug. I can't imagine what the hell they were thinking with the non-stop, repetitive reminders. This desperately needs a patch, even if it's a lot of work. this comes from an interview with Patrick Weekes I read once where he said you always need to make sure the player knows what to do next. And since Montreal is a rookie studio... Besides as annoying as i found SAM he was a breath of fresh air compared to th way Tomb Raider or Uncharted handled such things where you MAY get a hint...if you are lucky...after twenty minutes of staring at a puzzle. It's not even a rookie studio thing. It's part of fundamental design philosophy. Nintendo- which is by no means a rookie studio- was/is notorious for hand-holding throughout it's Zelda franchise, which is overwhelmingly linear key-based puzzles. The entire design philosophy for much of the modern history has been 'interlocking keys and locks' where item X solves lock Y and the puzzles are figuring out how to apply the key items tailor-made for them. Part of this was experiene, and part of it- especially with the addition of assistant NPCs- was to avoid players feeling frustrated at being lost. 'No one should ever be lost' was a design philosophy. One of the reasons Breath of the Wild is so exceptional is that it got away from that paradigm entirely. Instead of interlocking keys and locks to control progression, it got rid of the locks and went with interlocking mechanics that effect eachother. They let the player figure out what to do- even if it means sequence breaking most of the game. That works well for something like Breath of the Wild, and wouldn't work for a narrative-centric game like Bioware writes. But it's a demonstration that it's not just a 'rookie studio' thing. The real issue with SAM is that SAM is overused as the narrative device. The rookie mistake is in that. It's understandable- SAM is always present, it's cheaper to use SAM than rely on companion cast and require duplication of companion cues to scan- but there are other ways. Ryder is always present as well, and could prompt the player by thinking aloud. Sometimes a verbal cue could be missed entirely. The proximity sensor mechanic could have been refined and relied upon more. If SAM wasn't the primary cue, it'd be less annoying for some people, even if the same number of cues were given. |
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Post by colfoley on May 1, 2017 23:26:05 GMT
this comes from an interview with Patrick Weekes I read once where he said you always need to make sure the player knows what to do next. And since Montreal is a rookie studio... Besides as annoying as i found SAM he was a breath of fresh air compared to th way Tomb Raider or Uncharted handled such things where you MAY get a hint...if you are lucky...after twenty minutes of staring at a puzzle. It's not even a rookie studio thing. It's part of fundamental design philosophy. Nintendo- which is by no means a rookie studio- was/is notorious for hand-holding throughout it's Zelda franchise, which is overwhelmingly linear key-based puzzles. The entire design philosophy for much of the modern history has been 'interlocking keys and locks' where item X solves lock Y and the puzzles are figuring out how to apply the key items tailor-made for them. Part of this was experiene, and part of it- especially with the addition of assistant NPCs- was to avoid players feeling frustrated at being lost. 'No one should ever be lost' was a design philosophy. One of the reasons Breath of the Wild is so exceptional is that it got away from that paradigm entirely. Instead of interlocking keys and locks to control progression, it got rid of the locks and went with interlocking mechanics that effect eachother. They let the player figure out what to do- even if it means sequence breaking most of the game. That works well for something like Breath of the Wild, and wouldn't work for a narrative-centric game like Bioware writes. But it's a demonstration that it's not just a 'rookie studio' thing. The real issue with SAM is that SAM is overused as the narrative device. The rookie mistake is in that. It's understandable- SAM is always present, it's cheaper to use SAM than rely on companion cast and require duplication of companion cues to scan- but there are other ways. Ryder is always present as well, and could prompt the player by thinking aloud. Sometimes a verbal cue could be missed entirely. The proximity sensor mechanic could have been refined and relied upon more. If SAM wasn't the primary cue, it'd be less annoying for some people, even if the same number of cues were given. Well Zelda is a franchise for kids at the end of the day. So hand holding his expected. As far as it goes though I really agree. The problems would have been mitigated times ten if other characters then just SAM were chiming in. Like Peebee on her loyalty mission or I loved the bits on Elaadan when Ryder was going 'man its sooooo hot.' (maybe the fact I was playing Female Ryder had something to do with that though  ) the point is that if they had more commentary from companions/ Ryder instead of hearing all SAM all the time would have been greatly preffered. Like having Vetra say "ummm Ryder...we can mine for minerals here you know." |
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Mihura
N4
“Major Wulf Khan and the 903rd Catachan ‘Night Shrikes’…”
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Mihura on May 1, 2017 23:28:35 GMT
I think Ryder needed a little of Legend of Korra development, Korra loses her grip too and has to deal with job pressure. If Bioware wanted to do a chosen one again, they could at least make them the true succession to Alec with previews training to boost. The Cora nonsense being second in command would be gone because they did not even use it. The focus should be on their family/institution pressure or some shit like that
I think there is a lack of internal conflict in being the pathfinder. The Inquisitor shows more of this and is a better by change hero.
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 1:12:36 GMT
Still, Ryder hasn't done half bad for someone who's only 22. If we contrast it to this point in their father or Shepard's careers; That's understood. The problem lies in the dialogue choices. Most of the time you can't come back with a snide comment when your abilities are questioned. If I were Ryder, pushed into a role I didn't desire with the added baggage of losing my father, I would have some choice words for the ones questioning my abilities on a regular basis. Ryder's fine in other aspects of the game, but I have to repeat something I said earlier. The word pathfinder sounds like boy scout to me. Even more so since pathfinder is literally the word for their German equivalent. Pfadfinder. And since German ist my first language I can't help seeing a child roaming the woods instead of a respectable leader. Dude. Just pick the ones on the right. And now you hAve a Ryder who says no joke. Fixed. Now all that's left is for you to understand Ryder isn't a renegade. |
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 1:13:29 GMT
It's not even a rookie studio thing. It's part of fundamental design philosophy. Nintendo- which is by no means a rookie studio- was/is notorious for hand-holding throughout it's Zelda franchise, which is overwhelmingly linear key-based puzzles. The entire design philosophy for much of the modern history has been 'interlocking keys and locks' where item X solves lock Y and the puzzles are figuring out how to apply the key items tailor-made for them. Part of this was experiene, and part of it- especially with the addition of assistant NPCs- was to avoid players feeling frustrated at being lost. 'No one should ever be lost' was a design philosophy. One of the reasons Breath of the Wild is so exceptional is that it got away from that paradigm entirely. Instead of interlocking keys and locks to control progression, it got rid of the locks and went with interlocking mechanics that effect eachother. They let the player figure out what to do- even if it means sequence breaking most of the game. That works well for something like Breath of the Wild, and wouldn't work for a narrative-centric game like Bioware writes. But it's a demonstration that it's not just a 'rookie studio' thing. The real issue with SAM is that SAM is overused as the narrative device. The rookie mistake is in that. It's understandable- SAM is always present, it's cheaper to use SAM than rely on companion cast and require duplication of companion cues to scan- but there are other ways. Ryder is always present as well, and could prompt the player by thinking aloud. Sometimes a verbal cue could be missed entirely. The proximity sensor mechanic could have been refined and relied upon more. If SAM wasn't the primary cue, it'd be less annoying for some people, even if the same number of cues were given. Well Zelda is a franchise for kids at the end of the day. ...no... |
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 1:15:28 GMT
It just seems weird and a little sad that people seem to equate 'being aggressive' to only the Shepard brand. IE punching reporters in the face 'I'll cut your testicles off and feed them to a Krogan,' etc. etc. Ryder has plenty of opprotunity to be aggressive. I'll even say the line specifically when dealing with Addison 'don't manipulate me' is inherently aggressive. it's like how people complain about the lack of role playing they have in dai and then when you ask them to explain they go on about the murder spree they went on with their warden. |
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 1:17:25 GMT
oh look Calida is hanging on the edge..... Iamma gonna press da prompt and givah' a lava bath.*toll That wasn't from dialog which I meant and just for the record I am 2 for 2 on that shot. The first time I took it because I was still so mad at PeeBee for how we reached the surface of that planet. and most of the renegade things shepard has done is not from diologue ether...your point? |
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Post by colfoley on May 2, 2017 1:19:31 GMT
It just seems weird and a little sad that people seem to equate 'being aggressive' to only the Shepard brand. IE punching reporters in the face 'I'll cut your testicles off and feed them to a Krogan,' etc. etc. Ryder has plenty of opprotunity to be aggressive. I'll even say the line specifically when dealing with Addison 'don't manipulate me' is inherently aggressive. it's like how people complain about the lack of role playing they have in dai and then when you ask them to explain they go on about the murder spree they went on with their warden. i can even agree to a point but Bioware of late has seemingly gone for nuance in their protags instead of bipolar angels and demons. And while i sympathise with the people who want to indulge their murder rages it does make better protags. |
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Post by dreman999 on May 2, 2017 2:31:22 GMT
it's like how people complain about the lack of role playing they have in dai and then when you ask them to explain they go on about the murder spree they went on with their warden. i can even agree to a point but Bioware of late has seemingly gone for nuance in their protags instead of bipolar angels and demons. And while i sympathise with the people who want to indulge their murder rages it does make better protags. It's not that they don't have a point...it's just so surreal their highlight point of role playing are killing everything. It just point to alot of people with a lot of pent up rage. |
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) the point is that if they had more commentary from companions/ Ryder instead of hearing all SAM all the time would have been greatly preffered. Like having Vetra say "ummm Ryder...we can mine for minerals here you know."