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Post by colfoley on Apr 30, 2017 1:46:23 GMT
Like a lot of elements in Mass Effect Andromeda, Ryder is being well criticized by segments of the community.
Opinions of Ryder tend to take three main thrusts:
1. Ryder is not Shepard. 2. Ryder is a puppet and weak character and SAMs plaything. 3. Ryder is a strong character in their own right.
I cannot really speak to the first one. If you do not like Ryder because they aren't SHepard then we all have our personal preferences.
Yet its the difference between the other two which I think results in a misunderstanding. Mainly people are misunderstanding the role of SAM in Ryder's life. To those people who make argument 2. they view SAM as more of a parasitic relationship. Someone who is a danger to Ryder and has taken an unhealthy position over Ryder. AKA pretty much the Lexi approach.
I, on the other hand tend to view their relationship not as one of parasite and host, but one of symbiosis. Both of them has a role in creating the overall whole and making sure they are both successful. SAM enhances, he advices, he gives Ryder certain abilities. But he does not act. He says it himself when a reluctant uncertain Ryder asks him in SAM node, "so the human is still the boss right?" And SAM replies in the affirmite. In other words, SAM advices Ryder on his or her options Ryder decides how to do it and does the actual doing itself. A perfect symbisis, there is no creator to rebel against.
This casts the entire game, or at least the main plot, as being 'Ryder's story'. Again proponents of number 2, as I have read, do not think Ryder did any 'growing' as a character throughout the events of the story...essentially because SAM robbed them of the chance. This flies in the face of the facts of the game though. Namely the ending. The Ryder Protagonist loses contact with SAM. Loses the ability to manipulate Remnant technology as effectively as they were before, so much so that it now is causing them physical harm if they do so. Does Ryder wonder where SAM is? Does Ryder shrivel up and fold into a corner somewhere and rock themselves to sleep?
No, they rise to the challenge, in their own way, and forge on. Thus earning the title of Pathfinder given to them at the beginning of the game. They use what they have learned throughout the narrative of the game to come up with solutions to their problems. This is character growth, this is character development, this is what seperates Ryder from Shepard, that Shepard 'erned' the title of Spectre from the beginning because they were a 'bad ass', Ryder had to grow into it, and so they did.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 30, 2017 1:50:30 GMT
I'd vote for 1 and 2 but that would equal 3 so people would assume I like Ryder if I did that. I do a little bit. *Shakes a Salarian by his heels*
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Post by docklenator on Apr 30, 2017 1:51:41 GMT
Ryder's a strong character in their own right, but as much of a puppet as anyone in the initiative. There's some nefarious shenannigans going on behind the scenes.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 30, 2017 1:53:18 GMT
Ryder's a strong character in their own right, but as much of a puppet as anyone in the initiative. There's some nefarious shenannigans going on behind the scenes. Well yeah, I'm not exactly sure what to make of the Benefactor. I am sure we will find out one day...
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 30, 2017 3:58:39 GMT
Ryder's a strong character in their own right, but as much of a puppet as anyone in the initiative. There's some nefarious shenannigans going on behind the scenes. This is pretty much true. The entire thing is about to get blown open in DLC imo. A lot like Destiny Ryder won't become "worth it" till the full story releases. So I hope this DLC isnt too expensive or I'll skip it all like Trespasser and be happy with what I have.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 30, 2017 7:11:31 GMT
Shepard wasn't Shepard 2/3rds of the time, considering that the personality changed every game, so I'm not sure how that's supposed to be a bad thing.
Shepard was pretty much a puppet throughtout as well, a glorified gopher for various agencies and a pawn in their political machinations. Not sure how Ryder is anymore SAM's plaything than Shepard was EDI's, unless we're talking about gameplay prompts to scan.
As a character... as much as the restraint within a mostly good/occasionally humorous shell could go, I can at least say Ryder had a character arc, compared to Shepard. Shepard was an inconsistent character who was mostly static throughout the games, bar parts of 3 and the PTSD stress. Ryder had a narrative arc of growing into the roll of Pathfinder, finding confidence, and gaining the respect of the team.
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Post by toomanyclouds on Apr 30, 2017 8:00:49 GMT
I think I've said this before, but SAM talks too much and that is why players may feel his presence his oppressive. Not as in, he's not an interesting character who shouldn't talk, but as in, he is a constant tutorial voice telling you everything you really don't need to know. Pathfinder, this is the 29754037th terminal without electricity you've encountered, let me explain to you to follow the yellow line to the next terminal, please, because I think you have the memory of a damaged goldfish. Pathfinder, temperatures. Pathfinder, mining zones. Pathfinder, Pathfinder, Pathfinder. I felt like a puppet not because of any interesting relation between SAM and Ryder and the questions their symbiotic relationship raises, but because the game developers didn't seem to trust my intellect very much and unloaded that concern on SAM.
Ryder's story is more coherent than Shepard's, and it's also a pretty standard Coming of Age story. Your mileage on whether you find this interesting will vary, of course. Personally, I liked Shepard's story better because I'm kind of tired of 90% of Fantasy and SF media also being Coming of Age narratives in which The Young Hero Must Learn To Live Up To Their Fate, but that's taste. All in all, Ryder was just boring to me. The story was one I've experienced many times before, the personalities to choose from were not distinct enough to roleplay properly, and generally I found everyone around me more interesting than myself. Again, opinion, but I just wanna point out with my grumbling that it's not impossible to understand the story they were going for with Ryder, and to not just want them to be Shepard, and to still think s/he's not an interesting character. To just say "you just want them to be Shepard", "you don't get what SAM is about" or "Ryder has a coherent storyline, therefore everyone who doesn't like them doesn't understand that or is willfully ignoring it" is wrong. I get it, I do. Be thrust into position you weren't meant to be with the possible mentor lost. Start to live up to fate with help of Plot Device. Lose Plot Device and prove you are still worthy. Hero arc achievement unlocked.
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Post by duskwanderer on Apr 30, 2017 11:26:55 GMT
I don't think SAM did anything more in a sense that EDI did. The problem is that Shepard had a whole game without EDI.
Ryder simply lacks an assertive presence. He's far too accommodating. He apologizes too much, and barely asserts himself. And a lot of the assertive choices are considered wrong, like calling out the krogan.
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Post by abaris on Apr 30, 2017 11:40:57 GMT
My main problem is that I can establish Ryder as being a strong an respected personality. It's a minor issue, but the title of pathfinder reminds me too much of boy scouts. I just can't get behind that. I don't know, but they should have found a title more befitting the role for their main.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 30, 2017 18:21:17 GMT
I don't think SAM did anything more in a sense that EDI did. The problem is that Shepard had a whole game without EDI. Ryder simply lacks an assertive presence. He's far too accommodating. He apologizes too much, and barely asserts himself. And a lot of the assertive choices are considered wrong, like calling out the krogan. ...he apologizes? When?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 22:44:32 GMT
I think the vaults are worse than SAM in making Ryder seem kinda inconsequential. SAM tells Ryder where to go and what button to push, Ryder pushes the button, and then the vaults do all the hard work.
All the planning and all the work was done by the Jardaan. Ryder just happens to be the one that flips the switch and takes credit for it all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 23:17:03 GMT
I like my second Ryder more than the first. The first one was logical/professional good-doer, and I did not feel that this path really measures up to Shepard or even Inquisitor. She was trying to be really nice to everyone, and I just could not believe it all working out - even though, yep, it did. In Shepard's case, she was a gorram juggernaut, that's why if she said it works out, you all bloody well gonna kiss and make up. My second Ryder ino is wilier, more aware that he is not Commander Shepard or Alec Ryder, and SAM is the only asset he trusts, it's as close to blood as it gets atm (later, when Sara is out of it, it will be Sara too). All other factions, no matter how "nice" they seem, he can't really afford to trust. Emo/casual, making "evil" choices and the VA work well with that type of a live by his wits rogue of a young man. I quite like this construct, and don't find him weak, or his relationship with SAM odd. It's not often we get to play rogues, even if not really overt or as heinous as I would have liked.
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Post by duskwanderer on May 1, 2017 0:03:12 GMT
I don't think SAM did anything more in a sense that EDI did. The problem is that Shepard had a whole game without EDI. Ryder simply lacks an assertive presence. He's far too accommodating. He apologizes too much, and barely asserts himself. And a lot of the assertive choices are considered wrong, like calling out the krogan. ...he apologizes? When? If you go to save Raeka while Drack is in the party.
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Post by kenshen19 on May 1, 2017 0:04:47 GMT
I know people didn't like the paragon/renegade system but at least with it my Shep could be a different person on any given PT which my Ryder doesn't get to do. Some games I want to be the angel and do all the right things but sometimes I just want to be an asshole and get shit done my way and if I have to step on you to do it then so be it. There is a good reason I have countless PTs on ME1 and ME2 that I will never have in MEA and it isn't just the bugs.
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Post by zipzap2000 on May 1, 2017 0:14:44 GMT
If you go to save Raeka while Drack is in the party. Im not even in Ryders camp but..... Tali: You can't choose the Geth over my people! Shepard: I'm sorry Tali. Shepard: I'm sorry Mordin. Mordin: Im not, had to be me; someone else might have gotten it wrong. Shepard: Cerberus...we were defeated. I'm sorry councillor. Shepard: Joker... Joker: Thats Flight LT. Shepard: I didnt mean it Jeff. I'm sorry. Shepard: Im so sorry Samara. Samara: I do not need pity, Shepard. etc...
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Post by duskwanderer on May 1, 2017 0:16:06 GMT
Who says I like it from Shepard?
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Post by colfoley on May 1, 2017 0:38:11 GMT
I know people didn't like the paragon/renegade system but at least with it my Shep could be a different person on any given PT which my Ryder doesn't get to do. Some games I want to be the angel and do all the right things but sometimes I just want to be an asshole and get shit done my way and if I have to step on you to do it then so be it. There is a good reason I have countless PTs on ME1 and ME2 that I will never have in MEA and it isn't just the bugs. my second Ryder is an entirely different person then my first. And Ryder is presented numerous opportunities to be an ass, renegade, or downright evil.
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Post by kenshen19 on May 1, 2017 0:47:42 GMT
I know people didn't like the paragon/renegade system but at least with it my Shep could be a different person on any given PT which my Ryder doesn't get to do. Some games I want to be the angel and do all the right things but sometimes I just want to be an asshole and get shit done my way and if I have to step on you to do it then so be it. There is a good reason I have countless PTs on ME1 and ME2 that I will never have in MEA and it isn't just the bugs. my second Ryder is an entirely different person then my first. And Ryder is presented numerous opportunities to be an ass, renegade, or downright evil. Like when? I can not think of even one instance that the dialog options varied to that degree in MEA.
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Post by dreman999 on May 1, 2017 6:28:44 GMT
I don't think SAM did anything more in a sense that EDI did. The problem is that Shepard had a whole game without EDI. Ryder simply lacks an assertive presence. He's far too accommodating. He apologizes too much, and barely asserts himself. And a lot of the assertive choices are considered wrong, like calling out the krogan. ...he apologizes? When? I know right? My ryder keeps making jokes. He only applies when he makes a choice that upset people.
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Post by dreman999 on May 1, 2017 6:31:05 GMT
my second Ryder is an entirely different person then my first. And Ryder is presented numerous opportunities to be an ass, renegade, or downright evil. Like when? I can not think of even one instance that the dialog options varied to that degree in MEA. oh look Calida is hanging on the edge..... Iamma gonna press da prompt and givah' a lava bath.*toll
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on May 1, 2017 6:35:53 GMT
Ryder's a strong character in their own right, but as much of a puppet as anyone in the initiative. There's some nefarious shenannigans going on behind the scenes. This is pretty much true. The entire thing is about to get blown open in DLC imo. A lot like Destiny Ryder won't become "worth it" till the full story releases. So I hope this DLC isnt too expensive or I'll skip it all like Trespasser and be happy with what I have. I'm there with you. I can wait it out. Give time for the patches to take hold and GOD ONLY KNOWS WHAT I'LL BE DOING THEN?!? I'm enjoying the official, I-think-my-OCD-is-pretty-satisfied-and-I'm-not-going-to-be-surprised-anymore run. It's only my second and there is zero chance, I'm re-running it. I have enough do-over saves that I was able to see all the cutscenes and some I don't want to replay. ever. again.
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Post by Element Zero on May 1, 2017 6:48:43 GMT
I think the vaults are worse than SAM in making Ryder seem kinda inconsequential. SAM tells Ryder where to go and what button to push, Ryder pushes the button, and then the vaults do all the hard work. All the planning and all the work was done by the Jardaan. Ryder just happens to be the one that flips the switch and takes credit for it all. I never thought of this, but it's sort of true. Also, dad determined the vaults' purpose, so Ryder can't even take credit for the discovery. I don't really have a problem with the character; but I can see how it might be annoying to others. SAM's incessant nagging is my sole complaint that doesn't involve a bug. I can't imagine what the hell they were thinking with the non-stop, repetitive reminders. This desperately needs a patch, even if it's a lot of work.
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N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: griffonclaw39
Posts: 2,516 Likes: 2,607
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on May 1, 2017 6:58:02 GMT
I think the vaults are worse than SAM in making Ryder seem kinda inconsequential. SAM tells Ryder where to go and what button to push, Ryder pushes the button, and then the vaults do all the hard work. All the planning and all the work was done by the Jardaan. Ryder just happens to be the one that flips the switch and takes credit for it all. I never thought of this, but it's sort of true. Also, dad determined the vaults' purpose, so Ryder can't even take credit for the discovery. I don't really have a problem with the character; but I can see how it might be annoying to others. SAM's incessant nagging is my sole complaint that doesn't involve a bug. I can't imagine what the hell they were thinking with the non-stop, repetitive reminders. This desperately needs a patch, even if it's a lot of work. It's going to be piece-meal polishing at best which is my guess. Every fix is a potential Pandora's box. Though Patch 1.05 fixed a lot, I'm seeing more broken stuff that I didn't see on my rage-quit run.
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Post by Sifr on May 1, 2017 7:04:38 GMT
Ryder simply lacks an assertive presence. He's far too accommodating. He apologizes too much, and barely asserts himself. And a lot of the assertive choices are considered wrong, like calling out the krogan. That's the point though, Ryder was intentionally written as someone still learning how to be a leader. In comparison to their father, Alec Ryder demonstrated good leadership skills, a strong command presence and people didn't hesitate when he gave them a direct order. He had the benefit of being older, more experienced and having N7 training, all of which prepared him and made him the logical choice to lead the Pathfinder team. Ryder is young, inexperienced and doesn't have half of the badass credentials of their father, so has to figure out how they can possibly replace him on the fly. They stumble, make mistakes and don't always project a sense of immediate authority that makes people shut up and listen. Still, Ryder hasn't done half bad for someone who's only 22. If we contrast it to this point in their father or Shepard's careers; Alec was 20 when he went through the Charon Relay and 28 during the First Contact War (where his first kill occurred), while Shepard was 22/23/24 when they went through either the Skyllian Blitz on Elysium, survived a Thresher Maw attack on Akuze or massacred Batarian slavers on Torfan.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by erikson on May 1, 2017 8:46:37 GMT
Like a lot of elements in Mass Effect Andromeda, Ryder is being well criticized by segments of the community. Opinions of Ryder tend to take three main thrusts: 1. Ryder is not Shepard. 2. Ryder is a puppet and weak character and SAMs plaything. 3. Ryder is a strong character in their own right. I cannot really speak to the first one. If you do not like Ryder because they aren't SHepard then we all have our personal preferences. Yet its the difference between the other two which I think results in a misunderstanding. Mainly people are misunderstanding the role of SAM in Ryder's life. To those people who make argument 2. they view SAM as more of a parasitic relationship. Someone who is a danger to Ryder and has taken an unhealthy position over Ryder. AKA pretty much the Lexi approach. I, on the other hand tend to view their relationship not as one of parasite and host, but one of symbiosis. Both of them has a role in creating the overall whole and making sure they are both successful. SAM enhances, he advices, he gives Ryder certain abilities. But he does not act. He says it himself when a reluctant uncertain Ryder asks him in SAM node, "so the human is still the boss right?" And SAM replies in the affirmite. In other words, SAM advices Ryder on his or her options Ryder decides how to do it and does the actual doing itself. A perfect symbisis, there is no creator to rebel against. This casts the entire game, or at least the main plot, as being 'Ryder's story'. Again proponents of number 2, as I have read, do not think Ryder did any 'growing' as a character throughout the events of the story...essentially because SAM robbed them of the chance. This flies in the face of the facts of the game though. Namely the ending. The Ryder Protagonist loses contact with SAM. Loses the ability to manipulate Remnant technology as effectively as they were before, so much so that it now is causing them physical harm if they do so. Does Ryder wonder where SAM is? Does Ryder shrivel up and fold into a corner somewhere and rock themselves to sleep? No, they rise to the challenge, in their own way, and forge on. Thus earning the title of Pathfinder given to them at the beginning of the game. They use what they have learned throughout the narrative of the game to come up with solutions to their problems. This is character growth, this is character development, this is what seperates Ryder from Shepard, that Shepard 'erned' the title of Spectre from the beginning because they were a 'bad ass', Ryder had to grow into it, and so they did. Great job! All I can add to it is "ditto".
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