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Post by cobalt72 on Apr 30, 2017 21:28:17 GMT
And if so, would a squad mate's opinion change based on who the other squad mayer is?
For example, I had Drack and Vetra with me. Drack opposed the deal and Vetra supported the idea. I have no idea who else opposes the deal. But if I were to bring him/her along with Drank, would one of their opinions change so there would be opposing opinions?
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Apr 30, 2017 21:43:29 GMT
And if so, would a squad mate's opinion change based on who the other squad mayer is? For example, I had Drack and Vetra with me. Drack opposed the deal and Vetra supported the idea. I have no idea who else opposes the deal. But if I were to bring him/her along with Drank, would one of their opinions change so there would be opposing opinions? that is how it worked in the previous games In 3 playthroughs there has always been a pro and a con in these situations regardless of whom you bring.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 30, 2017 21:48:13 GMT
Don't remember who I had with me since I'm usually very random about who I bring with me unless there's some special RP reason for it - or if they're a required squadmate. Personally, I just listened to the offer and made my decision based on what the Primus said. Opinions from squadmates are welcome but they don't necessarily influence me. They only deal I'd ever cut with a Kett is this: you surrender and I won't kill you.
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Post by lightdrago3 on Apr 30, 2017 22:38:58 GMT
And if so, would a squad mate's opinion change based on who the other squad mayer is? For example, I had Drack and Vetra with me. Drack opposed the deal and Vetra supported the idea. I have no idea who else opposes the deal. But if I were to bring him/her along with Drank, would one of their opinions change so there would be opposing opinions? that is how it worked in the previous games In 3 playthroughs there has always been a pro and a con in these situations regardless of whom you bring. Not necessarily true for this game, however.. When I was deciding what the outpost on Eos should be, I had Vetra and PeeBee out, and they both said science.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Apr 30, 2017 23:25:19 GMT
that is how it worked in the previous games In 3 playthroughs there has always been a pro and a con in these situations regardless of whom you bring. Not necessarily true for this game, however.. When I was deciding what the outpost on Eos should be, I had Vetra and PeeBee out, and they both said science. damn it must be my choice of companions
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Post by Element Zero on May 1, 2017 6:54:59 GMT
that is how it worked in the previous games In 3 playthroughs there has always been a pro and a con in these situations regardless of whom you bring. Not necessarily true for this game, however.. When I was deciding what the outpost on Eos should be, I had Vetra and PeeBee out, and they both said science. This is exactly what I'd hoped to read. They might've constructed these scenes to match the characters' personalities, this time, instead of ying-and-yang opinions.
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Post by Fogg on May 1, 2017 8:46:59 GMT
On a slightly different note: is it me, or does the 'speak to old Angara on Aya who remember the arrival of the Kett'-quest tie in into this one, as a warning?
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on May 1, 2017 10:26:28 GMT
that is how it worked in the previous games In 3 playthroughs there has always been a pro and a con in these situations regardless of whom you bring. Not necessarily true for this game, however.. When I was deciding what the outpost on Eos should be, I had Vetra and PeeBee out, and they both said science. I think Draak's the only one to push for a military outpost, actually. I did it a couple times, and everyone else I can recall said science. Might be a bug, though. In ME1, for example, the companions were on a spectrum of Paragon to Renegade, with the person closer to the extremes taking that side. It could make for an amusing sequence in which (Paragon) Ashley was the one to support saving the Council, while that ruthless renegade Liara said to leave them to die.
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Post by lightdrago3 on May 1, 2017 10:33:50 GMT
Not necessarily true for this game, however.. When I was deciding what the outpost on Eos should be, I had Vetra and PeeBee out, and they both said science. I think Draak's the only one to push for a military outpost, actually. I did it a couple times, and everyone else I can recall said science. Might be a bug, though. In ME1, for example, the companions were on a spectrum of Paragon to Renegade, with the person closer to the extremes taking that side. It could make for an amusing sequence in which (Paragon) Ashley was the one to support saving the Council, while that ruthless renegade Liara said to leave them to die. Cora and Drack push for military. Liam, PeeBee, and Vetra push for scientific. It is impossible to have Jaal at the time, so he has no opinion.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on May 1, 2017 11:01:16 GMT
I think Draak's the only one to push for a military outpost, actually. I did it a couple times, and everyone else I can recall said science. Might be a bug, though. In ME1, for example, the companions were on a spectrum of Paragon to Renegade, with the person closer to the extremes taking that side. It could make for an amusing sequence in which (Paragon) Ashley was the one to support saving the Council, while that ruthless renegade Liara said to leave them to die. Cora and Drack push for military. Liam, PeeBee, and Vetra push for scientific. It is impossible to have Jaal at the time, so he has no opinion. Ah, that's right, thank you. All things considered, I think it's kind of a shame that the outpost itself didn't seem to change that much. I wasn't expecting big changes, but after a whole game on the science route of never having to deal with a shortage of soldiers like it was a real issue I was kind of hoping for something... Well, I think I would have been happy if the prefabs had been changed to look like a military base, rather than the same setup as a science lab just with a few more nameless soldier NPCs. Don't get me wrong- I liked that people expressed unease over the military base. And the cavalry to the rescue was nice. But it never seemed to be a boon in-game, per see, and the science route never had a point that had me wishing 'hey, I might have made a mistake, some soldiers would be nice right now.' Ultimately the game seemed to be pushing the civilian/science route as the 'good' one... just more subtly than usual.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on May 1, 2017 11:14:02 GMT
Actually, trying to think- are there any other decisions in the game that let both companions take a stance? I think Andromeda usually avoided having companions advocate for Big Decisions.
During the critical arc...
On Voeld when rescuing the Moshae, it's not companion vs companion but Moshae vs. Jaal.
On Kadara, the plot happens mostly in-port and without a companion escorts. No one is there when you choose to save the prisoner or not. Same with Reyes.
On the Archon's ship, there's one really strong opinion about the fate of the Krogan scouts, but I can recall anyone not named Draak having a strong opinion/preference.
There's no Big Decision on the Remnant city.
The Meredian Big Decision about the ambassador is done without companions present.
Even the world plots usually avoid it. Reyes vs. Sloane doesn't involve companion input. Havarl lacks a real choice, same with Voeld. Aya is a hub world, so like the Nexus there's no constant companions (or Big Choices). No one's really involved in the Remnant drive core decision on Elaaden.
...huh. Bioware may have largely moved from that premise of using companions to frame choices.
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Post by Steelcan on May 1, 2017 21:45:49 GMT
Actually, trying to think- are there any other decisions in the game that let both companions take a stance? I think Andromeda usually avoided having companions advocate for Big Decisions. During the critical arc... On Voeld when rescuing the Moshae, it's not companion vs companion but Moshae vs. Jaal. On Kadara, the plot happens mostly in-port and without a companion escorts. No one is there when you choose to save the prisoner or not. Same with Reyes. On the Archon's ship, there's one really strong opinion about the fate of the Krogan scouts, but I can recall anyone not named Draak having a strong opinion/preference. There's no Big Decision on the Remnant city. The Meredian Big Decision about the ambassador is done without companions present. Even the world plots usually avoid it. Reyes vs. Sloane doesn't involve companion input. Havarl lacks a real choice, same with Voeld. Aya is a hub world, so like the Nexus there's no constant companions (or Big Choices). No one's really involved in the Remnant drive core decision on Elaaden. ...huh. Bioware may have largely moved from that premise of using companions to frame choices. I wonder if that's because they also seem to be moving away from emphasizing choices in their narratives overall. None of the choices in MEA seemed really impactful, certainly not on par with the more infamous ones from the OT, but the game also wasn't advertised in such a way to emphasize the choices that players could make.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on May 1, 2017 23:09:55 GMT
Hm. I'd agree on the key word of 'emphasizing,' but I also think that's a good, not a bad, thing for roleplaying franchises.
The original trilogy advertising did make a Big Deal about 'galaxy-shaping choices' that would have impact... but the choices we got were consistently badly designed choices, with almost no impact whatsoever. The bigger the choice, the less feasible it was for their divergences to actually be incorporated into the plot, and so you had a lot of choices that were too big to show, and were routinely invalidated as a gameplay impact going forward. Each of the three game's final choices ended up amounting to pretty much nothing for sequential events- the Council didn't matter, the Collector Base didn't matter, and the Crucible choice was so big they went to another galaxy to avoid having to answer it.
The best arc in the trilogy for capturing consequences was the Krogan/Genophage arc, and that worked by relying on choices that weren't set up as galaxy-shaping from the get-go. Killing Wrex or not wasn't an immediate impact on the Krogan. Maleon's data wasn't a genophage cure. By taking small choices, the narrative was able to have a big narrative shift in tone by substituting people- much bigger shifting than was seen in other contexts.
Consider the Geth-Quarian arc, for example. The ME1 Geth data quest was completely irrelevant. The supposedly Big Impact of Tali's loyallty mission, of splitting up the Migrant Fleet if you revealed the truth of treasonous crimes, barely even showed as a war asset modifier. There Heretic virus choice was only an asset modifier.
The only previous choice in the trilogy that significantly altered the narrative tone of Rannoch was whether Legion survived or not- and that's a far smaller 'choice' than the Big Decisions of ME2, like of rewriting all Heretic Geth or the Migrant Fleet politics.
One of the paradoxes of RPGs is that less is often more. A less ambitious scope in choice design- smaller scale, not Huge Societal hanges- are both easier to reflect, and easier to build divergent narrative tones off of. I'd say that MEA has a better ground for that- because its seems a lot of their decisions are designed for rhetorical difference rather than uncapturable Big Changes in the first place.
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Post by lightdrago3 on May 1, 2017 23:25:32 GMT
Hm. I'd agree on the key word of 'emphasizing,' but I also think that's a good, not a bad, thing for roleplaying franchises. The original trilogy advertising did make a Big Deal about 'galaxy-shaping choices' that would have impact... but the choices we got were consistently badly designed choices, with almost no impact whatsoever. The bigger the choice, the less feasible it was for their divergences to actually be incorporated into the plot, and so you had a lot of choices that were too big to show, and were routinely invalidated as a gameplay impact going forward. Each of the three game's final choices ended up amounting to pretty much nothing for sequential events- the Council didn't matter, the Collector Base didn't matter, and the Crucible choice was so big they went to another galaxy to avoid having to answer it. The best arc in the trilogy for capturing consequences was the Krogan/Genophage arc, and that worked by relying on choices that weren't set up as galaxy-shaping from the get-go. Killing Wrex or not wasn't an immediate impact on the Krogan. Maleon's data wasn't a genophage cure. By taking small choices, the narrative was able to have a big narrative shift in tone by substituting people- much bigger shifting than was seen in other contexts. Consider the Geth-Quarian arc, for example. The ME1 Geth data quest was completely irrelevant. The supposedly Big Impact of Tali's loyallty mission, of splitting up the Migrant Fleet if you revealed the truth of treasonous crimes, barely even showed as a war asset modifier. There Heretic virus choice was only an asset modifier.
The only previous choice in the trilogy that significantly altered the narrative tone of Rannoch was whether Legion survived or not- and that's a far smaller 'choice' than the Big Decisions of ME2, like of rewriting all Heretic Geth or the Migrant Fleet politics. One of the paradoxes of RPGs is that less is often more. A less ambitious scope in choice design- smaller scale, not Huge Societal hanges- are both easier to reflect, and easier to build divergent narrative tones off of. I'd say that MEA has a better ground for that- because its seems a lot of their decisions are designed for rhetorical difference rather than uncapturable Big Changes in the first place. Actually not true. These choices impacted if you could broker peace between the Geth and Quarians on Rannoch. There was a hidden point system implemented to keep track of this, as the Migrant Fleet choice to reveal the treason or not and whether to rewrite or destroy the heretics affected that choice. And I also disagree with your points about Wrex and Legion living or dying being "small" choices. Sure, they aren't as huge as if the Council lives or dies, or what to do with the Collector Base, but the death or survival of a major character still is a big choice. The dynamic between Wrex and Wreave is different, and their reactions to your choice during the Genophage Arc is different, especially if you chose not to cure it. Not to mention that it impacts the survival of Mordin (or the other Salarian, I forget his name), though Mordin's survival is just worth some War Assets. If Legion is dead, it is impossible to broker peace during the Rannoch arc, same goes for Tali if she is dead by the time of ME3. In my opinion, I would consider the rewriting or destroying the Heretics and the choice to reveal the treason as small choices with big impacts, as they seem mostly self contained within the loyalty mission until ME3. Same with Maelon's data, though I think we agree on that. I agree that many of their big choices had little impact, I think the survival of certain characters weren't small choices with big impacts. but big choices that Bioware did a good job in utilizing.
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Post by n7ltrobbiesann7 on May 3, 2017 18:03:09 GMT
Hm. I'd agree on the key word of 'emphasizing,' but I also think that's a good, not a bad, thing for roleplaying franchises. The original trilogy advertising did make a Big Deal about 'galaxy-shaping choices' that would have impact... but the choices we got were consistently badly designed choices, with almost no impact whatsoever. The bigger the choice, the less feasible it was for their divergences to actually be incorporated into the plot, and so you had a lot of choices that were too big to show, and were routinely invalidated as a gameplay impact going forward. Each of the three game's final choices ended up amounting to pretty much nothing for sequential events- the Council didn't matter, the Collector Base didn't matter, and the Crucible choice was so big they went to another galaxy to avoid having to answer it. The best arc in the trilogy for capturing consequences was the Krogan/Genophage arc, and that worked by relying on choices that weren't set up as galaxy-shaping from the get-go. Killing Wrex or not wasn't an immediate impact on the Krogan. Maleon's data wasn't a genophage cure. By taking small choices, the narrative was able to have a big narrative shift in tone by substituting people- much bigger shifting than was seen in other contexts. Consider the Geth-Quarian arc, for example. The ME1 Geth data quest was completely irrelevant. The supposedly Big Impact of Tali's loyallty mission, of splitting up the Migrant Fleet if you revealed the truth of treasonous crimes, barely even showed as a war asset modifier. There Heretic virus choice was only an asset modifier.
The only previous choice in the trilogy that significantly altered the narrative tone of Rannoch was whether Legion survived or not- and that's a far smaller 'choice' than the Big Decisions of ME2, like of rewriting all Heretic Geth or the Migrant Fleet politics. One of the paradoxes of RPGs is that less is often more. A less ambitious scope in choice design- smaller scale, not Huge Societal hanges- are both easier to reflect, and easier to build divergent narrative tones off of. I'd say that MEA has a better ground for that- because its seems a lot of their decisions are designed for rhetorical difference rather than uncapturable Big Changes in the first place. Actually not true. These choices impacted if you could broker peace between the Geth and Quarians on Rannoch. There was a hidden point system implemented to keep track of this, as the Migrant Fleet choice to reveal the treason or not and whether to rewrite or destroy the heretics affected that choice. And I also disagree with your points about Wrex and Legion living or dying being "small" choices. Sure, they aren't as huge as if the Council lives or dies, or what to do with the Collector Base, but the death or survival of a major character still is a big choice. The dynamic between Wrex and Wreave is different, and their reactions to your choice during the Genophage Arc is different, especially if you chose not to cure it. Not to mention that it impacts the survival of Mordin (or the other Salarian, I forget his name), though Mordin's survival is just worth some War Assets. If Legion is dead, it is impossible to broker peace during the Rannoch arc, same goes for Tali if she is dead by the time of ME3. In my opinion, I would consider the rewriting or destroying the Heretics and the choice to reveal the treason as small choices with big impacts, as they seem mostly self contained within the loyalty mission until ME3. Same with Maelon's data, though I think we agree on that. I agree that many of their big choices had little impact, I think the survival of certain characters weren't small choices with big impacts. but big choices that Bioware did a good job in utilizing. LOL I clicked and clicked and clicked your sig. Ahh, reminds me of the Salarian on Sur'Kesh "don't touch that button..."
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