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Lebanese Dude
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 4:11:38 GMT
Important to note that hating a character does not make the character badly written.
Also, they will not approach the same topic more than once in the same story. Using the "why him but not others" argument does not fly. Stop using it.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 4:08:21 GMT
Why should it be 100% his choice? External influences affect almost all our decisions, whether societal, institutional, social, or familial. When it comes to surrogacy shouldnt the donor's decision to donate or not be 100% theirs? So no pressure from the person asking for the surrogacy? When does that ever happen? Even if they didn't actually pressure you with words, you feel pressure from a sense of loyalty or friendship. This isn't an anonymous donor. Point is, he makes a decision and that's his choice, but there are external factors that shape it. They are not all internal.
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Lebanese Dude
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 4:05:30 GMT
Why should it be 100% his choice? In fact, does such a thing exist? What? Why shouldn't it be 100% Gil's choice whether or not he wants to start a family? It's not like he's going to accidentally knock someone up. Missed my edit. External influences affect almost all our decisions, whether societal, institutional, social, or familial. There is no such thing as 100% "my choice". In fact, a common topic of discussion is the pressures young couples face to have children by society and parents when they aren't ready.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 4:00:43 GMT
And also bring us back to the whole thing of nothing ever being good enough: If HOMOSEXUAL_MALE_CHARACTER wants to form a family: They're pushing teh evil heteronormative agenda on us like they do IRL, what a stereotype.
If HOMOSEXUAL_MALE_CHARACTER does not want to form a family: Gay families are never represented, we get yet another insecure manbaby incapable of committal, what a stereotype.They literally can't win. But it's not 100% Gil's choice. Jill is the one feeding him these ideas. And if Ryder is in a relationship with him, he defers to Ryder because again, Gil doesn't know what he wants in this situation. He hasn't had time to figure it all out and he needs guidance. Why should it be 100% his choice? External influences affect almost all our decisions, whether societal, institutional, social, or familial.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:57:40 GMT
She has been asking him long before you two became a couple. She's not going to stop just because Gil met someone who won't actually address the problem she's concerned about. And the fact that she can't respect his previous answers (presumably no's since he isn't a dad yet) brings me back to her being a shitty friend. Great. That's where it ends.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:56:22 GMT
"and nothing more". You outright say it can be no other way. Still my opinion, I don't claim that as an "objective truth" That's not how it works.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:55:23 GMT
This is why I think the whole thing is just Bioware writing TM. It's just tone-deaf and nothing more. So we have writing with unfortunate implications and less scenes allocated to tell the story. I would much rather we return to the place of love this once was. Also it's nearly 5am and i'd like to sleep. Cant sleep unless all is peace and love. In case you haven't noticed, I dislike it when gay men play the victim. It's as if topics have to always be safe and "accepted" with no potential for challenging people's thoughts on the matter.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:52:13 GMT
And that's my opinion of Bioware's writing. "and nothing more". You outright say it can be no other way.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:49:46 GMT
Can you not project your own subjective opinion as an objective truth? I didn't say my opinion is an objective truth, no? Not sure how do you get that from? "BioWare writing TM".
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:49:08 GMT
If Gil is starting a relationship with Scott, she should have the sense to understand that they need to solidify their relationship first before throwing a baby into the mix because she is impatient or can't find other candidates to raise children. She has been asking him long before you two became a couple. She's not going to stop just because Gil met someone who won't actually address the problem she's concerned about.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:46:39 GMT
The use of stereotypes does kind of bring us back to this whole thing being blamed on the execution. This is why I think the whole thing is just Bioware writing TM. It's just tone-deaf and nothing more. Can you not project your own subjective opinion as an objective truth?
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:43:06 GMT
No need to make broad statements like that. You can say that every situation is stereotypical. SSV Daddy Issues ring a bell? I'm not familiar with that ship. Basically all of ME2's character arcs are predictable with their romances being stereotypical. It doesn't mean they're bad. It's simply because humans aren't as mysterious as they think they are.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:41:25 GMT
lol you really hate her don't you? It's pretty much a stereotype that gay men are asked by their best friends to be baby daddies. The use of stereotypes does kind of bring us back to this whole thing being blamed on the execution. No need to make broad statements like that. You can say that every situation is stereotypical. SSV Daddy Issues ring a bell? Don't tell me I'm going to have to argue "bad writing" here too?
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:38:52 GMT
I definitely prefer the non-baby route. They can have kids later, when they want to, not because one of their sisters got overly excited. Fortunately, you're allowed to have that opinion and express it in the game if you have a stake in it (being in a relationship).
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:36:48 GMT
Exaggeration is likely. The existence of a gene stock as well as there being a lot more heterosexual men than gay men kind of means there isnt a need. May be she is just teasing gil and it comes across unfortunately. And maybe we circle back to wonky execution. Have you considered the possibility that no heterosexual men want to have a baby with her? That's might be why she is asking Gil or is using sperm banks. lol you really hate her don't you? It's pretty much a stereotype that gay men are asked by their best friends to be baby daddies.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:32:45 GMT
There is a need according to Jill. She would know, and possibly exaggerate. Exaggeration is likely. The existence of a gene stock as well as there being a lot more heterosexual men than gay men kind of means there isnt a need. May be she is just teasing gil and it comes across unfortunately. And maybe we circle back to wonky execution. Maybe she wants her best friend and is posing a very rational question on whether a gay man should contribute in order to influence him in the only way you could on a logically-minded person (Kallo vs Gil argument addresses this). It's selfish, but ultimately human.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:29:09 GMT
Their argument is that she's influencing his actions. They believe Gil is a victim. Gil is totally a victim of abuse. Unless his writer comes in here, quotes me, and personally tells me: Sandal, Gil is not being abused by Jill. And I will then proceed to not believe him and instead continue to believe that Gil is being emotionally abused by Jill. Because he is. I didn't say you were wrong. I only disagree in the severity of it. You are forgetting that Gil is still responsible for his own decisions irrespective of outside influences.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:23:55 GMT
they brought dna samples from the milky way to ensure healthy variety in the population. It was mentioned during a side quest where you are trying to save a pregnant woman. There's is no excuse for the way this romance was written. Then this settles it. There is no need for gay men to procreate. Jill claiming otherwise means that she's stupid and/or abusive, or her writer is not aware of the genetic banks or trying too hard to include her into Gil's story. There is a need according to Jill. She would know, and possibly exaggerate.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:21:34 GMT
I'm pretty sure that that Gil is supposed to be a healthy adult and thus able to make decisions on his own if he wants to. This "it was Jill's decision" meme doesn't fly, if anything, it would be Ryder's. Their argument is that she's influencing his actions. They believe Gil is a victim.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:20:56 GMT
Yeah, and that's the whole point of the decision, it's about long term commitment, it's about Gil wanting purpose an deciding to settle down, form a family and be a parent. I really don't understand why people got stuck in the technicalities of making the baby, that's completely irrelevant. That's not the issue. Not for me anyway. I'm thinking about Gil. Gil's psychological state. His vulnerability and the emotional distress that this likely causes him. He is made to feel that having and raising a child is his purpose via the "relentlessness" (Gil's words) of Jill . That's my issue. Along with the IRL implications. Aren't you describing what people may feel when they go through their life in one manner and then suddenly change course as a result of personal or outside involvement? It's not unique to this situation.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:19:06 GMT
Gil's involvement is purely because Jill wants a baby and i guess wanted to share the experience with her best/only friend? At best it's a little selfish. At worst it's taking advantage of his act first think later nature. The matter of population and everything is important. I think it seems to be a common factor here that the execution is what's lacking. She needs women to be volunteering they would be the main obstacle. Gay couples would need to be adopting since there's more than enough sperm to go around. Not untrue. Also very human. People need to not dehumanize the situation. It may not always make sense. That's not always the point.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:18:08 GMT
Yeah, and that's the whole point of the decision, it's about long term commitment, it's about Gil wanting purpose an deciding to settle down, form a family and be a parent. I really don't understand why people got stuck in the technicalities of making the baby, that's completely irrelevant. There's a difference between wanting to have a baby and caving to pressure to have a baby and there's a difference between having a baby with your partner and sharing it with a third party you barely know, that's why it's not irrelevant to a lot of people. It can be argued that people have children to fulfill societal pressures, particularly those from their parents. Those who actively WANT babies are typically much older people than Gil and Scott's age. In this case the societal pressure is represented by Jill.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:15:03 GMT
I get it but then that becomes an adoption issue not one about procreating. Yeah, and that's the whole point of the decision, it's about long term commitment, it's about Gil wanting purpose an deciding to settle down, form a family and be a parent. I really don't understand why people got stuck in the technicalities of making the baby, that's completely irrelevant. Well it's just wanting to find a reason to justify their discomfort. What you're saying is true. They're taking a question regarding a population's responsibility to procreate and applying it to Gil's noncommittal nature.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:11:59 GMT
What you view as "no need" is viewed differently by someone whose entire job is to ensure the viability of the population especially when there aren't enough resources as you specified. To her, if you aren't contributing, you're not fulfilling expectations. You cannot fault her for thinking that way. The issue presented is that people who are sent to colonize are expected to reproduce, irrespective of their sexual orientation. You can disagree with that sentiment, and if you're in a relationship with Gil, can influence events appropriately. But that's actually not presented in any other way. Nobody else in the game is pressured to reproduce. Not lesbians, not people that hook up with aliens, not people that show no romantic inclinations at all. Only gay men have a "pressure to breed" plot. In fact, the only other context for breeding we see at all in game is Dr. Kennedy fleeing the Nexus because they wouldn't let her have a baby. Your other post had the same "why me not them" mentality. That's not how it works. They aren't going to do the same plot with two characters. Each one of them has their own thing. They explore the relationship between science and faith with Suvi for example. They could have switched Gil and Suvi if they wanted to. We'd then have people writing about how they feel they're being forced into religion with lesbians getting the better treatment.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Apr 1, 2017 3:09:08 GMT
What makes that so bad? Maybe he does find purpose with a kid. Why are you assuming he didn't? Because he doesn't have the love that he could have had with Ryder. He has only Jill, who is emotionally abusive to him. Again, why is this a bad thing in the context of storytelling?
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