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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 7, 2016 1:14:26 GMT
Funny that Finn is mentioned considering WOT confirmed HE NEVER RETURNED TO THE CIRCLE AFTER WITCH HUNT. Explain that. Why the hell you had to type giant letters on me,just to prove how you're right?It's phatetic Finn had his permission to leave so what he did after that isn't my concern i was just reporting his dialogues for a totally different debate. Proof that the permission things lets you leave the circle permanently? Asunder indicated that was just leaving temporarily on the condition you'd return to the circle, not straight up running away. If he was supposed to return, it says a lot that he never went back.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 23:23:10 GMT
I agree that the relationship has some serious abusive aspects. But honestly? As horrible as it sounds, i'm more comfortable letting one elf remain an abusive relationship with a proactive monarch, than letting many elves suffer under an expansionist status-quo monarch that is going to hate being blackmailed. Celine can kill elves just as easly as Gaspard,she only cares about how much she is popular among the nobles,if they think kill elves is good Celine will behave accordingly to not disappoint them. Celene wasn't the one who commissioned papers saying sleeping with elves should be the same as bestiality since elves are no better than animals, the one who openly says that all elves belong in slums, who openly complains he isn't killing Dalish elves, and who is part of a group whose graduation is killing elves. Sorry but Gaspard is a thousand times worse with regards to elves than Celene could ever be.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 23:18:39 GMT
Freedom is a matter of how someone feel rather than a matter of space. There may be people who are in a circle who feel more free than those outside of it,just look at Fin,so it is a matter of how someone feel about it. Freedom is hard. Yes. Fin afraid of the outside world, just as Orana. Then we can said: the slavery is good? Funny that Finn is mentioned considering WOT confirmed HE NEVER RETURNED TO THE CIRCLE AFTER WITCH HUNT. Explain that.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 21:55:59 GMT
Actually with Gaspard and Briala, the only people who would truly suffer are the elves as the only true advantage the elves had were the eluvians which they lose in Trespasser meaning Briala has no advantage and would likely be crushed. If you truly want a civil war, the truce is a better way as while Briala may fall quickly, Celene and Gaspard both have lots of supporters and thus would cause a prolonged war. I disagree. 1) The truce is just too hard to set up. 2) While no choice is particularly good for the elves, Gaspard is fundamentally a political idiot. He doesn't know how to really play the Game in a society that demands it. By contrast Brialla certainly does....and just because she may have lost control over the Elluvians doesn't mean that everyone in Orlais realizes this. Also before that happens, Brialla would almost surely strengthen her position in other ways. 3) We know 1) and 2) are true because if you do the Brialla+Gaspard ending, by the time Trespasser comes around the Orlesian nobles still grumble that the Emperor is Brialla's puppet, but she hasn't had control over the Elluvians for some time. 4) Finally, the universal truce is just too hard to set up and regarding Elves, both Celene and Gaspard despise the Elves (in their own way). That means with a truce it's two on a weak one (w/r/t the Elves). By contrast Gaspard + Brialla gives the Elves the weakest opponent and thus the best chance. Besides the universal truce is just too hard to set up for what you get...and you pass up too much to do it IMHO. Actually, as the endings stated, the reason why nobody is doing anything against Briala is because the Inquisition is backing her which is still happening until the end of Trespasser. Once the Inquisition is gone, what do you think is going to happen?
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 20:20:23 GMT
I agree with the assumption that if Bdriiala is in charge then by the end of Trespasser it is likely to go pear shaped very soon. Not only does she no longer having the backing of the Inquisition but she has also lost the eluvians, which is what gave her the edge in the first place.
However, my main objection to reconciling Celene and Briala is that it seems impossible to get Leliana as Divine and if you conscripted the mages, it is all too easy to get Vivienne. This is based off the other decision being to recruit the Wardens rather than banish them. It came as a horrible surprise when that happened to me the first time. I even tried voting for Cassandra but it was still no good. I dare say there was some dialogue choices that I should have done differently but I'm not clear what they are.
It doesn't seem a problem if you take the Templars path and I always disband them, so that is okay. Then I can reconcile Celene and Briala, recruit the Wardens and get Leliana as Divine. Mind you, I think Celene/Briala staying in power is somewhat dependent on the Inquisition. With them out of the way, even without Gaspard on the scene, the nobles might still take it out on the elves.
Any society where it is acceptable to liken having sex with an elf to bestiality or makes a satirical play that insults the memory of their most holy prophet by using her to make a cheap political point about the Empress and no one objects is really not a good place to be if you are an elf. Incidentally, the reason I really like making Leliana Divine is that she restores the Canticle of Shartan to the Chant, which makes it totally clear that there was nothing romantic going on between Andraste and Shartan but nevertheless she did acknowledge him as her equal in the eyes of the Maker. "The Maker has called you, just as he called me, to be a light for your people." She also names Shartan her Champion. Wonderfully subversive stuff. I mostly agree with this, but I note that IMHO the best way to prevent Vivienne from becoming Divine (which I agree is a bad thing) is simply not to recruit Vivienne (and that is the route I almost always take). If you need a Mage companion, I find that Sola and later on Dorian are better as NPC Mage Companions anyway. That said, I tend to favor putting Brialla in charge with Gaspard as her puppet precisely because it's likely to go pear shaped. I really, really, really dislike the Orlesian Empire and frankly I think they've done far more harm in Thedas (esp recently) than good. It would warm the cockles of my heart to see the Empire fall apart in Civil War, and Puppet-Gascard w/Brialla is almost assured to do just that. I would like the all three reconcile ending for the same reason but IMHO it's too hard to get for the work you need to get it. Actually with Gaspard and Briala, the only people who would truly suffer are the elves as the only true advantage the elves had were the eluvians which they lose in Trespasser meaning Briala has no advantage and would likely be crushed. If you truly want a civil war, the truce is a better way as while Briala may fall quickly, Celene and Gaspard both have lots of supporters and thus would cause a prolonged war.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 20:09:20 GMT
Just a question to the Meredith supporters:
If Meredith decided to kill all Fereldens after the Chantry explosion with the reasoning that since someone from Ferelden blew up the Chantry, the people will demand blood and thus all Fereldans in Kirkwall are to be executed, do you still think she's justified?
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 19:59:14 GMT
This is the point. THIS system can not be repaired. A completely new system needed. Instead of the concentrated prison-Circles full of angry and desperate mages and angry Templars with power over this mages, need organized education, registration and control. It seems it's harder to handle, but less cruel, and there is lesser chance of privileged (but still dangerous) minority and oppressed majority of mages. Accidents will always happens, this is not justify the cruelty. Why not? That's a serious question. The thing that drove mages to reject it completely (to the extent that they actually did, since there are still Loyalists in DA:I) is that the Templars were getting no oversight, damn well knew it, and damn well acted like it. It was Meredith's unjust Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and Lambert's hamfisted, cartoon villain attempts at controlling the mages that caused them to decide by majority vote to rebel. Absent those, the mages who hate the system could very well become a powerless minority faction again, and the ones willing to rebel violently a powerless minority faction of them. Doesn't that support giving mages freedom considering that the mages only decided to rebel after finally being fed up with the templars? Doesn't that show that they won't become power hungry tyrants if given freedom.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 17:20:06 GMT
Meredith's junta continuing to rule Kirkwall is only good for ranking Templars (and Chantry officials). Kirkwall's status quo is the oppressive rule of a fanatical military elite that have no qualms about murdering dissenters, mage or not, and literally employ death squads to that end. Every Templar officer in Kirkwall is culpable for this. War in the streets between a group of people who make fire with their minds and have an unfortunate tendency to set loose demons when they're scared and a bunch of fanatics is worse than a dictatorship. Especially since Thedas is pretty much autocratic to begin with. Did you forget how the war in the streets only happened because Meredith decided to murder all the mages? Do you really think there would be abominations and demons running rampant if Meredith didn't decide to do the annulment?
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 17:09:10 GMT
Nah, Celene and Briala's relationship is inherently abusive and kind of gross. Kill her, neuter Gaspard, and everyone but the nobility wins. Except it's clear that having Briala control Gaspard is doomed to failure for multiple reasons. For starters, everyone knows she's the actual one with power so she isn't really being sneaky. Furthermore, the only reason the nobles aren't planning on overthrowing her is because of the Inquisition and guess what? By Trespasser the Inquisition is either gone or severely weakened so they can't protect her and thus there is literally nothing stopping the nobles from overthrowing Briala. Considering how much of a racist Gaspard is plus how angry he must feel at being an elf's puppet, what do you think Gaspard is going to do to elves once Briala is gone? Finally, there's the fact that all her help for elves is based on blackmailing Gaspard. What is she going to do once Gaspard dies?
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 16:17:54 GMT
My point was: your parallels not working. I am merely providing a reason mages are treated the way they are and that is because magic is a source of power none can ignore in a world where might makes right, just like how people fight over crude oil and the ability to weaponize atomic power, because those are sources of energy which is power which one can use. Mages are people born with inherent abolity to manipulate magic, which is energy.They are like a human nuclear reactor. People will never leave them alone because of the power they wield, which means no solution, however egalitarian, will hold steady long term. In short, I am merely pointing out the futility of proposing long term egalitarian solutions in a reality that merely pays such things lip service and is instead run on the principle that might is right.I am not saying I want mages to be oppressed, I am simply stating that shit ain't gonna just change. Look at DAI - At the end of Trespasser the Circle system is either divided into 2 factions or firmly under religious authorities despite the best efforts of the protagonist, regardless of whatever view the protagonist has on mages. Essentially - Same shit different flavor / The more things change, the more they stay the same. You somehow decide to perform the mental gymnastic whereby stating something like that equates to endorsement of slavery and class immobility.That's not my problem. Reason =/= parallels =/= endorsement. Except for you know mages gaining unprecedented acceptance with divine Leliana. Heck the conscripted mages ending with Divine Leliana outright says some mages decide to live civilian lives.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 2:07:03 GMT
One thing I've noticed is how personal Mage fans can take these games; most RPGs are power fantasies, and players naturally want whatever they feel makes their characters more powerful. So naturally, they associate Chantry restrictions with restrictions on *them*. Thing is, had they been born in Thedas, there is no guarantee that they would be Mages. Quite the reverse, if the Law of Averages is to be believed. Do they ever stop to consider the concerns of mundanes, or simply dismiss them since they're "boring" and "not special enough"? I get the fantasy, I play Mages all the time. But I've become bored with protagonists who are heroes because of some random genetic quirk and/or touch of destiny, rather than something they accomplished through their own hard work. Let's try something different, ignoring the obvious Abomination and Blood Mage arguements: imagine you work in a construction firm that has been trying to get a contract to build a fort. Two or three Mages get the contract and complete the building for less money, and your crew and their families starve. Should you have no legal recourse? It should be noted than when David Gaider started outlining the original Dragon Age bible, much of the lore was in response to things he hated in most Dungeons & Dragons style RPGs. For instance, that there was little defense for the average person if a magic user casted "Charm Person" to make them like the caster. You are arguing against an extreme that very few "mage fans" actually advocate for, while also insulting the intelligence of a number of people (inadvertently, I don't doubt). We all know that, had we been born in Thedas, we would likely not be mages, math and statistics being what they are. Are you suggesting we should only advocate for the rights of those who are like us, rather than trying to understand and support those who are different? I hope not. What a world it would be if everyone only thought about themselves As far as your assumption that mage fans must simply be drunk on power fantasies, my personal favorite protagonist is Hawke because s/he isn't a superhero type of character, and I haven't even played a mage Hawke yet (and kind of don't want to, except it's the only way to experience having Carver around, so it'll have to happen eventually). So no, I don't support mages over Templars because I think non-mages are too "boring." I explained why in my original response to this thread, so I won't rehash it here. The most common suggestion I have seen to deal with this problem, from both mage and Templar supporters, is to transform the circles into boarding schools of a sort, rather than prisons, with some allowances for mages to have families. I don't think I've seen many people seriously suggest that mages should be able to do whatever the hell they want with no restrictions or checks on their power at all, or with no protections for non-mages. If you allow that, you get Tevinter. As for your hypothetical scenario, considering that in DAI you can send your troops off to do construction jobs that would otherwise not get done (apparently), I doubt Thedas has many out-of-work construction crews to begin with. But ignoring that problem with your hypothetical, how are "two or three mages" going to get a fort built in only a few days? Are they fueling this work with blood magic? Are they insanely over-powered mages who don't need to eat or sleep, who never get tired and never run out of mana? I need to know what I'm working with here. This. Seriously, it's like Templar supporters think all mage supporters are this straw man tumblrina
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 4, 2016 3:31:54 GMT
Anyone can get Templar abilities without training. You just need to take a specially prepared form of lyrium because regular lyrium will just kill nonmages. Apparently warden abilities get stronger with age. Also Fiona is a special exception Please don't tell me Fiona is special because of Maric's dragon blood wonder sperm getting her pregnant, because if that were the case, then any female warden getting impregnated by a Qunari should be able to become taint free. I would think dragon blood in Qunari would be stronger than the dragon blood in Maric. Sleeping with Maric was just a stupid joke that people who didn't realize was a joke took as fact and spread. Fiona was actually cured when the Architect used amulets that turned wardens into ghouls. Fiona was halfway into the transformation when Duncan destroyed the amulet. That's how she was cured, not sleeping with Maric
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 3, 2016 23:34:33 GMT
The comics confirmed that if a Templar loses his abilities due to not taking lyrium, he can regain them if he starts taking lyrium again. You can never lose the abilities of a warden so thats a moot point So, question. Does it also say anything about what happens if a muggle with no Templar training takes lyrium? I mean, if Templars get their abilities from lyrium, then can't it be assumed any mundane taking it can gain abilities? No, you can't lose warden abilities, but are the instincts/abilities of a warden stronger, weaker or just as strong as a Templar? And one warden lost her abilities, so you can't say 'never' and if it's ever discovered how, I'm sure more would shed their powers quite willingly. Anyone can get Templar abilities without training. You just need to take a specially prepared form of lyrium because regular lyrium will just kill nonmages. Apparently warden abilities get stronger with age. Also Fiona is a special exception
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 22:25:29 GMT
Ah yes, fear all those abominations that didn't happen if you ally with the mages. Methinks abominations aren't as big a threat as some imagine
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 20:27:05 GMT
I also don't really care about mods. How dare I have a different opinion
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 20:23:56 GMT
Any kind of "Freedom vs. Security" debate is moot because it's a false dichotomy. You can't be free without the security to act, and you can't have security at all without some measure of freedom. Yeah but these debates can be summed up as whether the rights of mages are equal to or inferior to the rights of nonmages
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 20:22:59 GMT
Actually, the alistair comics confirm not using lyrium means eventually losing access to Templar powers. In the comics, Alistair had to take lyrium again in order to use his Templar powers. Plus, it was retconned that Alistair did already take lyrium to use his powers. Also, Ok, but it was never addressed in the game and I have neither read the books nor the comics (and I won't be due to vision issues), and I think things like that are a big problem with the game. A casual playerwho doesn't read the books/comics are left in the dark if things like that aren't addressed properly. To base the next game on books/comics without a proper disclosure can make some players feel disconnected from the story and become frustrated with the lack of continuation in the plot. Going that way also brings up new questions too. If a Templar loses his/her powers from stpping their lyrium use, can they get them back years later if they start taking it again? In Allister's case, if he starts taking lyrium, will he have the powers of a Grey Warden and a Templar, or would one over rule the other? I don't know, it all seems incomplete in the story telling. The comics confirmed that if a Templar loses his abilities due to not taking lyrium, he can regain them if he starts taking lyrium again. You can never lose the abilities of a warden so thats a moot point
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 17:47:04 GMT
Then I hope you didn't make Cullen stop taking lyrium because a lot of Templars then decide to stop taking lyrium and thus lose their powers. Guess Templar supporters forgot about that little detail See, that's the one thing I question. If a Templar loses his abilities if he stops taking lyrium, then how can Allister have Templar abilities in DAO when he never even took his first draught of lyrium? I don't think they lose their abilities when they go off lyrium, lyrium just intensifies their powers. (kinda like Popeye with his spinach) Actually, the alistair comics confirm not using lyrium means eventually losing access to Templar powers. In the comics, Alistair had to take lyrium again in order to use his Templar powers. Plus, it was retconned that Alistair did already take lyrium to use his powers. Also,
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 16:17:10 GMT
Then I hope you didn't make Cullen stop taking lyrium because a lot of Templars then decide to stop taking lyrium and thus lose their powers. Guess Templar supporters forgot about that little detail Lots of Templars quitting lyrium because you made Cullen stop is not really a foreseeable consequence at the time of the decision. Unless, of course, you are the meta-gaming sort. Except Cassandra says encouraging Cullen to stop taking lyrium could encourage other Templars to also go off lyrium
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 15:18:43 GMT
I take it nobody heard of a gilded cage. Who wouldn't want to live in a house covered in gold? Do you think: so much mage want to be uncontrollable abomination? I think: really few mages want to risk this, then if they know, how to uses safely their magic, they will use on this way, and don't forget, the people don't always use their weapon. Much mages don't want to throw fireballs, just live their life. And I wrote (very often), need effective police (not lyrium addict Templars, rather similar than the Seekers), and registration. The registration already exist: this is the Chantry's blood magic – the phylactery system. this is not that bad, if uses only to catch the criminals. Not every abomination wants to become one. If mages had to be willing to become abominations, the situation would be much less dangerous. And the lyrium addiction doesn't make Templars ineffective until the end-stage. Before that it actually makes them more effective, since without the anti-magic it grants them the Templars have a really dangerous job. (Not that the lyrium makes it safe: it just makes it relatively so.) Without that, the Templars only hope is to have a mage embedded with every unit... which they should be doing anyway, but if the other Templars don't have anti-magic there will be a lot of fights where they're more hindrance than help. Then I hope you didn't make Cullen stop taking lyrium because a lot of Templars then decide to stop taking lyrium and thus lose their powers. Guess Templar supporters forgot about that little detail
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 2, 2016 7:23:27 GMT
I have been saying all along, context and nuance matters. From your limited binary worldview, it is just pure oppression but there are many groups such as the Human underclass,Dwarven castless, City Elves, Qunari sarebaas, Tevinter slaves and Tevinter soporati would gladly live the life of a Circle Mage. Which is what I've been saying. Basically, is that mages are so lucky. I take it nobody heard of a gilded cage.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 1, 2016 2:15:24 GMT
I recall information that said that Alexius cannot travel past the point the Breach occurred. Time travel was only possible because it's fueled by the Breach's energy. That's why they can't stop the Inquisitor from receiving the Mark and that's why Alexius couldn't go back to stop Felix's sickness in time. What I understood Optus as saying, why did Alexius go to the mages when he could have just gone to when the Quiz fell out of the Fade in front of two soldiers unconscious? This reminds me of Harry Potter and how the Author realized her mistake with the time Turner and had them all officially destroyed in the book How do you know there were only two soldiers? There may have been more where we couldn't see them
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 26, 2016 0:52:18 GMT
How much you want to bet the well choice or this one will affect if the inquisitor dies
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 25, 2016 20:59:03 GMT
People complaining about why mages don't just joi the Inquisition when you first meet them: tell me, how would you have reacted if that's what happened and thus you automatically always got mages and could never side with the Templars That would be even worse writing. At that point, there would be no educated choice at all. It would be simply a matter of where you visited first. I understand why it's one or the other. Being able to land both, especially after they've been engaged in a bitter war, would be too unrealistically pie in the sky. The complaint many of us have is that the mages aren't portrayed well. They passively allow Fiona to lead them toward disaster, despite their doubts. None of them step up and help the Inquisitor. They instead sit back and wait for a rescue that may or may not come. I'd be much happier had the mages been portrayed more equally with the Templars. Some mages should've heroically stood up and helped the Inquisitor oppose some Venatori scheme. (The time magic plot excluded them from the story, and focused the spotlight on Dorian and the Inquisitor, to the overall storyline's detriment.) The mages should've been given a more active role in the game post-Breach, as well. The writers just never made them look too capable. They look like they've completely lost their way. The Templars, meanwhile, are able to be salvaged and admirably rebuilt "onscreen", rather than in post-game slides. It's a writing issue, not a Mage-Templar issue. Like I've continually said, I like both sides of that in-setting divide, and empathize with both sides. Each includes great and terrible people. I just feel like the Templars got much better writing in this game, unfortunately. I believe it's intentional since Gaider himself said he was annoyed so many people sided with the mages in DA2 (hilarious considering he wrote the blatantly pro mage Asunder) so apparently the mages were made to be idiots in order to make people actually consider siding with the Templars. However, stuff like the poll and similar polls on other sites show that while more people are willing to help the Templars, people are still abundantly pro Mage as show by nearly 70% on average getting Divine Leliana and 60% allying with mages. So in all, it's just writing to make the mages look like idiots to make people willing to side with the templars
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thesupremedarkone
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 25, 2016 16:53:23 GMT
People complaining about why mages don't just joi the Inquisition when you first meet them: tell me, how would you have reacted if that's what happened and thus you automatically always got mages and could never side with the Templars
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