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Post by ProbeAway on Sept 8, 2016 22:29:45 GMT
Spoilers below:
I'm talking about your own canon playthroughs here, not just wanting to expierience a different path in the game.
Meredith is clearly bat-sh*t crazy, even before she goes all red lyrium on everyone. Orsino isn't exactly perfect but at least you can see that he acted out of desperation and despair for the future. Meredith's actions just defy logic.
All she was doing was punishing the mages who were trying to do the right thing based on the terrorist act of one apostate. In my mind, Anders' actions could have been seen as a massive reinforcer for the importance of the circle. By invoking the right of annulment she simply sent a message to all mages that they couldn't rely on the circle for protection.
If anyone out there does choose to side with Meredith I'd love to know why (only just started DAI tho so no spoilers there pls!).
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Post by Addictress on Sept 8, 2016 22:50:06 GMT
I sided with her once or twice (out of like so many playthroughs) but it kind of makes sense if you play a mage in a certain light. First of all, there truly are dozens and dozens of blood mages in Kirkwall - obviously caused by Meredith. Yet, although Meredith caused the conditions that gave rise to blood mages, it still holds that the right of annulment exists to purge a circle infected by blood mages. Within that world, the right of annulment is an inevitable although tragic and avoidable consequence of the blood magic infecting the circle, which is, of course, a consequence of Meredith's actions. It is a rule.
"Anders forced our hand."
Per Cullen, "even just one [Maleficar] could influence the mind of a King."
Although we slay blood mages like dime-a-dozen mooks, if you uphold the lore established in Origins that a blood magic infection in a circle is really, really bad and terrifying and cannot be let loose no matter what, then even mages agree to the right of annulment as a rule.
It's a doomsday machine, one which cannot be stopped even though the instigation of its gears may have been malevolent.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 8, 2016 23:46:40 GMT
Once I sided with templars, but only at the end, because of Carver.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 8, 2016 23:59:22 GMT
Yes, Meredith was utterly out of her god damn mind, completely failed at her job, and the problems with the Circle were mostly her fault. But, practically every mage we see is a blood mage/abomination. We find out the blood mage responsible for killing Hawke's mother has an accomplice in the Circle. By act 3, blood mages and abominations (Grace, Huon, Evelina, the Resolutionists, trash mobs mind controlling gangs to do their bidding) are pouring out of the Circle and Orsino suspiciously attempts to cover any and all evidence of this. He suspiciously throws a fit when Meredith tries to do something as reasonable as room searches in light of the overwhelming evidence that there are blood mages in the Circle. MAYBE I wouldn't have sided with Meredith if the Circle hadn't made it abundantly clear that it was rotten from top to bottom. My second reason for siding against the mages is that there's also the perceived futility of trying to defend them. Excluding metagame knowledge of knowing you're 100% going to survive no matter what because the Templars stand down, you know reinforcements will come. Before that, we thought the Divine was going to call an exalted march on Kirkwall. 100 health potion gameplay mechanics aside, Hawke and co. can't survive an entire army so the safer option would be to comply. Most of blood mages, we saw (with the exception of Quentin and) because of the hopelessness turned to blood magic. Without the Circle, Huon never been crazy abomination, he would ben husband and probably father. If the Circle would been help to Evelina, happily would to grow up and care about the Ferelden orphans (with whom the Chantry not addressed)
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2016 0:11:29 GMT
Most of blood mages, we saw (with the exception of Quentin and) because of the hopelessness turned to blood magic. Without the Circle, Huon never been crazy abomination, he would ben husband and probably father. If the Circle would been help to Evelina, happily would to grow up and care about the Ferelden orphans (with whom the Chantry not addressed) I know it's an act of desperation. It's unfortunate that it came to that, yes, but I also happen to think blood magic is cancerous to society as a whole so I don't care. I can't side with Templars (only one of my playthrough), not just with mage Hawke. Honestly, I can't see a true logical reason for it.
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Post by ProbeAway on Sept 9, 2016 4:46:19 GMT
I sided with her once or twice (out of like so many playthroughs) but it kind of makes sense if you play a mage in a certain light. First of all, there truly are dozens and dozens of blood mages in Kirkwall - obviously caused by Meredith. Yet, although Meredith caused the conditions that gave rise to blood mages, it still holds that the right of annulment exists to purge a circle infected by blood mages. Within that world, the right of annulment is an inevitable although tragic and avoidable consequence of the blood magic infecting the circle, which is, of course, a consequence of Meredith's actions. It is a rule. "Anders forced our hand." Per Cullen, "even just one [Maleficar] could influence the mind of a King." Although we slay blood mages like dime-a-dozen mooks, if you uphold the lore established in Origins that a blood magic infection in a circle is really, really bad and terrifying and cannot be let loose no matter what, then even mages agree to the right of annulment as a rule. It's a doomsday machine, one which cannot be stopped even though the instigation of its gears may have been malevolent. But that's just it: the circle mages are just about the only mages in Kirkwall that AREN'T blood mages. It seems to me that most of the blood mages you encounter either escaped the circle and then turned to blood magic in desperation or for revenge, or were never in the circle to begin with. Plus, ultimately it's not the blood mages that make Meridith invoke the right, it's Anders' actions. And he isn't even a blood mage!
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 9, 2016 8:03:22 GMT
I sided with her once or twice (out of like so many playthroughs) but it kind of makes sense if you play a mage in a certain light. First of all, there truly are dozens and dozens of blood mages in Kirkwall - obviously caused by Meredith. Yet, although Meredith caused the conditions that gave rise to blood mages, it still holds that the right of annulment exists to purge a circle infected by blood mages. Within that world, the right of annulment is an inevitable although tragic and avoidable consequence of the blood magic infecting the circle, which is, of course, a consequence of Meredith's actions. It is a rule. "Anders forced our hand." Per Cullen, "even just one [Maleficar] could influence the mind of a King." Although we slay blood mages like dime-a-dozen mooks, if you uphold the lore established in Origins that a blood magic infection in a circle is really, really bad and terrifying and cannot be let loose no matter what, then even mages agree to the right of annulment as a rule. It's a doomsday machine, one which cannot be stopped even though the instigation of its gears may have been malevolent. But that's just it: the circle mages are just about the only mages in Kirkwall that AREN'T blood mages. It seems to me that most of the blood mages you encounter either escaped the circle and then turned to blood magic in desperation or for revenge, or were never in the circle to begin with. Plus, ultimately it's not the blood mages that make Meridith invoke the right, it's Anders' actions. And he isn't even a blood mage! This. Meredith isn't "cleansing" the Circle (WTF), she's scapegoating it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 8:39:21 GMT
No. Although, I have sided with the Templars before with one my mages....
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Post by Addictress on Sept 9, 2016 9:44:56 GMT
I sided with her once or twice (out of like so many playthroughs) but it kind of makes sense if you play a mage in a certain light. First of all, there truly are dozens and dozens of blood mages in Kirkwall - obviously caused by Meredith. Yet, although Meredith caused the conditions that gave rise to blood mages, it still holds that the right of annulment exists to purge a circle infected by blood mages. Within that world, the right of annulment is an inevitable although tragic and avoidable consequence of the blood magic infecting the circle, which is, of course, a consequence of Meredith's actions. It is a rule. "Anders forced our hand." Per Cullen, "even just one [Maleficar] could influence the mind of a King." Although we slay blood mages like dime-a-dozen mooks, if you uphold the lore established in Origins that a blood magic infection in a circle is really, really bad and terrifying and cannot be let loose no matter what, then even mages agree to the right of annulment as a rule. It's a doomsday machine, one which cannot be stopped even though the instigation of its gears may have been malevolent. But that's just it: the circle mages are just about the only mages in Kirkwall that AREN'T blood mages. It seems to me that most of the blood mages you encounter either escaped the circle and then turned to blood magic in desperation or for revenge, or were never in the circle to begin with. Plus, ultimately it's not the blood mages that make Meridith invoke the right, it's Anders' actions. And he isn't even a blood mage! Oh that's true. Damnit.
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Post by Addictress on Sept 9, 2016 9:44:57 GMT
I sided with her once or twice (out of like so many playthroughs) but it kind of makes sense if you play a mage in a certain light. First of all, there truly are dozens and dozens of blood mages in Kirkwall - obviously caused by Meredith. Yet, although Meredith caused the conditions that gave rise to blood mages, it still holds that the right of annulment exists to purge a circle infected by blood mages. Within that world, the right of annulment is an inevitable although tragic and avoidable consequence of the blood magic infecting the circle, which is, of course, a consequence of Meredith's actions. It is a rule. "Anders forced our hand." Per Cullen, "even just one [Maleficar] could influence the mind of a King." Although we slay blood mages like dime-a-dozen mooks, if you uphold the lore established in Origins that a blood magic infection in a circle is really, really bad and terrifying and cannot be let loose no matter what, then even mages agree to the right of annulment as a rule. It's a doomsday machine, one which cannot be stopped even though the instigation of its gears may have been malevolent. But that's just it: the circle mages are just about the only mages in Kirkwall that AREN'T blood mages. It seems to me that most of the blood mages you encounter either escaped the circle and then turned to blood magic in desperation or for revenge, or were never in the circle to begin with. Plus, ultimately it's not the blood mages that make Meridith invoke the right, it's Anders' actions. And he isn't even a blood mage! Oh that's true. Damnit.
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Post by Addictress on Sept 9, 2016 9:45:53 GMT
Taptalk double post. I am truly pissed now.
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Post by dayze on Sept 9, 2016 20:58:50 GMT
Yeah I had an amoral rakish Hawke that had no problem siding with Meridith because she was basically the power that be of that city.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2016 21:03:15 GMT
Yeah I had an amoral rakish Hawke that had no problem siding with Meridith because she was basically the power that be of that city. Yes. I admit: this is a true logical reason
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 9, 2016 22:50:47 GMT
But that's just it: the circle mages are just about the only mages in Kirkwall that AREN'T blood mages. It seems to me that most of the blood mages you encounter either escaped the circle and then turned to blood magic in desperation or for revenge, or were never in the circle to begin with. Plus, ultimately it's not the blood mages that make Meridith invoke the right, it's Anders' actions. And he isn't even a blood mage! Oh that's true. Damnit. Don't forget that if Karras is still alive, he reveals that Meredith already tried to invoke the right of annulment at the start of act 3 which means Meredith was just looking for an excuse to kill the mages,
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2016 23:02:07 GMT
Reliable commander:
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Post by Addictress on Sept 9, 2016 23:40:04 GMT
Don't forget that if Karras is still alive, he reveals that Meredith already tried to invoke the right of annulment at the start of act 3 which means Meredith was just looking for an excuse to kill the mages, Again, intention doesn't matter. If there is something which technically justifies it, then it counts as a tragic consequence.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2016 23:46:49 GMT
Don't forget that if Karras is still alive, he reveals that Meredith already tried to invoke the right of annulment at the start of act 3 which means Meredith was just looking for an excuse to kill the mages, Again, intention doesn't matter. If there is something which technically justifies it, then it counts as a tragic consequence. In this case, I think matters. I don't like the thought, that I will to ally with someone who wants to kill a bunch of people, and she it has long been planning this. Of course, if I play an evil character, it's good way.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 10, 2016 1:00:45 GMT
I side with her even when playing as a mage. She's my favorite character in the game. Need more like her. excellent
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 1:24:40 GMT
I side with her even when playing as a mage. She's my favorite character in the game. Need more like her. excellent I like her, really good character. But you play always a hypocrite mage Hawke? Or what's your Hawke logical reason? indestructible love for Meredith?
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Post by themikefest on Sept 10, 2016 1:40:58 GMT
I side with her even when playing as a mage. She's my favorite character in the game. Need more like her. excellent I like her, really good character. But you play always a hypocrite mage Hawke? Or what's your Hawke logical reason? indestructible love for Meredith? Just chose her because the mages need to be held in check. That pathetic little weasel Orsino can't keep the mages in line so its up to Meredith to do that. The first time I sided with Meredith, Orsino mentioned he knew Quentin and the crap he was doing. From that point on, I side with the templars.
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Post by dragontartare on Sept 10, 2016 1:45:15 GMT
I like her, really good character. But you play always a hypocrite mage Hawke? Or what's your Hawke logical reason? indestructible love for Meredith? Just chose her because the mages need to be held in check. That pathetic little weasel Orsino can't keep the mages in line so its up to Meredith to do that. The first time I sided with Meredith, Orsino mentioned he knew Quentin and the crap he was doing. From that point on, I side with the templars. But she doesn't just plan to keep them in line, she plans to murder every last one of them. Most of them haven't done anything wrong. Although, I can agree with calling Orsino a pathetic little weasel.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 10, 2016 1:49:19 GMT
But she doesn't just plan to keep them in line, she plans to murder every last one of them. Most of them haven't done anything wrong. After the dirtbag, that calls himself Anders, murdered everyone in the chantry.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 1:50:53 GMT
I like her, really good character. But you play always a hypocrite mage Hawke? Or what's your Hawke logical reason? indestructible love for Meredith? Just chose her because the mages need to be held in check. That pathetic little weasel Orsino can't keep the mages in line so its up to Meredith to do that. The first time I sided with Meredith, Orsino mentioned he knew Quentin and the crap he was doing. From that point on, I side with the templars. Perhaps I understand your position, in a warrior's/rogue's viewpoint. But if a mage Hawke believe the Circle-system, and Meredith's truth, s/he need to go into the Circle, because the magic and mages (the s/he him/herself too) dangerous. Hawke is free. If s/he want to imprison/kill all the mages, s/he is a hypocrite, or evil, or both. And Meredith is lunatic (as Cullen [and others] also said, or rather just suggesting), without red lyrium too. She simple not reliable.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 1:57:50 GMT
But she doesn't just plan to keep them in line, she plans to murder every last one of them. Most of them haven't done anything wrong. After the dirtbag, that calls himself Anders, murdered everyone in the chantry. Anders was right. Elthina did nothing. She was not neutral. The tool is debatable, the objective is not. How do they say? Necessary sacrifices? The mages and templars both is the chanty's victim. Meredith was planned the extermination of the entire Circle. That's better? The Circles are dangerous, cruel and unjust. And still no matter, what Anders did. Meredith is lunatic, and the Circle mages are innocent in the Anders' action. Why should they be punished?
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Post by dragontartare on Sept 10, 2016 2:06:54 GMT
But she doesn't just plan to keep them in line, she plans to murder every last one of them. Most of them haven't done anything wrong. After the dirtbag, that calls himself Anders, murdered everyone in the chantry. I don't think you'll ever see me supporting Anders. What he did was monstrous, and Hawke executed him last time I played Act 3. But why does that mean every other mage deserves to die? Anders acted alone. (Every mage except mage Hawke, I guess? I haven't played mage Hawke, so I don't know how what Meredith's plans for him or her are, in that case.)
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