inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 12, 2020 13:01:28 GMT
1) Of course. The bitter clash of thesis and antithesis is the very soul of history. And it may result in a new way, the synthesis, that incorporates, and transcends, both sides. 2) "Because I'm not a monster. If they must be costrained, I'd rather they are costruire in comfort." Seriously. The qunari method seems to me excessively cruel and unnecessarily severe. As well as ser alrik's plan or meredith's methods. A good balance of interests must be sought between the "human rights" of mages and the security needs of society. 3) The CoE is attacked and dissolved? Really? In which epilogues? 4) The warden stupid mages and their stupid plans. 1) To me it appeared that debate isn't/wasn't really wanted by the powers-that-be.
2) Language question: What does "costruire" mean? To build?
So you do draw lines. I do as well, just at different points. Asshat templars and clerics preaching some "blessed/cursed by a god" that can be re-interpreted as situation demands are not included. 3) The base DAI epilogue doesn't seem to mention the college at all if the templars are recruited, so I'm taking mages recruited here (Allied)In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order.
The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins.
Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant.
(Conscriped) In the end, they elect to leave the Inquisition and refuse Vivienne's demand that they join the reformed Circle of Magi.
However, this new mage rebellion does not last, as the Divine brings down her fury upon them.
Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant. For Trespasser, to me it reads as the Inquisition mages specifically try to form a "new" CoE, which is then rather "grudgingly allowed" to exist. As the Inquisition forces returned to civilian life, its mages pushed for independence from the Circle. Divine Victoria, secure on her Sunburst Throne - and with a rebuilt Chantry Circle at her disposal - chose to be magnanimous. She grudgingly allowed them to remain as the College of Enchanters, as a mark of her regard for the Inquisition. For the next few years, the College and the Circle coexisted peacefully, if barely.
4) Eh, that's hardly on the other mages. It is more a failure of judgement (or overwhelming desperation?) on Clarel's part. Warden elitism and secrecy is can of worms on its own.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 12, 2020 13:20:20 GMT
I think that you point is invalid. For every rule or limitation or imposition, there is always someone who breaks it, someone who rebels, someone who cannot stand i5 and creates problems. This does not mean that the rule/limitation is unjust / unnecessary or that, if there was no rule, there would be no problem. Btw.. again.. we "saw it", yes. 3 times. Evanuris, old tevinter, modern tevinter. Redcliffe mess too. The warden stupid mages and their stupid plans. No good balance there Really, the best balance is (theoretically) a functioning, fair circle where the Templars are not omnipotent and the mages have more individual responsibilities and rights/freedom. The "Redcliffe mess" proves my points. This obviously was caused by the system, just like Uldred's mess... how many little kid, less powerful mages died in it LOCKED UP hopelessly, without any chance to escape and survive? Much more people died here, than it would happen in open territory. But they don't matter, because they're "just mages" – and Greagoir let run some Templars before he locked the door! The Circle is not able to prevent such thing what the Seven or the Evanuris did. Also: the Evanuris is a very different case, because EVERYONE were mage... It's like any other people who has more power over the others. Again: EVERYONE was mage! Celene eliminated a whole Alienage thousends of people, Gaspard "knightly" Chevaliers hunted elves just for fun (Vivienne said about the Inner Circle: the Inquisition needs more Chavaliers, not those thugs... rofl)
|
|
inherit
1853
0
Nov 30, 2024 21:24:27 GMT
495
kalreegar
416
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Oct 12, 2020 13:39:38 GMT
1) what they want is not important, the dialectical model of nature and of history transcends the will and intentions of men 2) to co nstrain? I meant to restrict, control, bind 3) ah ok. Still, after trespasser, the CoF is allowed to exist not matter what, even by Divine Vivienne.
|
|
inherit
1853
0
Nov 30, 2024 21:24:27 GMT
495
kalreegar
416
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Oct 12, 2020 13:45:52 GMT
The "Redcliffe mess" proves my points. I was not referring to Connor, but to Alexius and his tevinter mages. Their reckless experiments. They risked destroying the fabric of reality with their time magic. Not a joke. Uldred was a harmless prankster in comparison
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 12, 2020 14:01:15 GMT
The "Redcliffe mess" proves my points. I was not referring to Connor, but to Alexius and his tevinter mages. Their reckless experiments. They risked destroying the fabric of reality with their time magic. Not a joke. Uldred was a harmless prankster in comparison And the Circle prevented it?
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Nov 17, 2024 22:23:52 GMT
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 12, 2020 14:06:05 GMT
I was not referring to Connor, but to Alexius and his tevinter mages. Their reckless experiments. They risked destroying the fabric of reality with their time magic. Not a joke. Uldred was a harmless prankster in comparison And the Circle prevented it? I don’t recall the Tranquil being forcibly possessed by demons then immediately massacred while under the Circle, so yes.
|
|
inherit
1853
0
Nov 30, 2024 21:24:27 GMT
495
kalreegar
416
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Oct 12, 2020 14:50:25 GMT
And the Circle prevented it? I would say... yes. Most of the time at least, for 600 years. It's not that these are events that happen every day. btw, uldred has been contained (warden or no warden), and connor's mess happened precisely because Isolde didn't trust the circle's system. like all performances evaluation, it's a matter of percentage.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 12, 2020 14:50:47 GMT
And the Circle prevented it? I don’t recall the Tranquil being forcibly possessed by demons then immediately massacred while under the Circle, so yes. It happened, so: the system was not able to prevent it...
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 12, 2020 15:08:13 GMT
And the Circle prevented it? I would say... yes. Most of the time at least, for 600 years. It's not that these are events that happen every day. btw, uldred has been contained (warden or no warden), and connor's mess happened precisely because Isolde didn't trust the circle's system. like all performances evaluation, it's a matter of percentage. The system nature, that Isolde didn't trust in. The system carried within itself – we saw many cases, and I don't think, that centuries were calm... And they didn't even try anything different, just hunt down the mages or lock them up. They sat on a powder keg – and it blew up surprisingly. My Hawke helped it with pleasure. My Circle-Warden would as well – in my first PT (2009, when it released), I thought I missed something when I didn't get the quest in Denerim to look for the phylacteries and decide to destroy them, to take yours, or leave them without doing anything. My Warden would have chosen the destroy (if it possible, the whole building... so: I waited for the possibility of a rebellion.) Also: it's not about the percentages, but the principles. And if not the principles: still the system is more danger and harm than benefit. Just a false sense of security.
|
|
inherit
1853
0
Nov 30, 2024 21:24:27 GMT
495
kalreegar
416
Oct 26, 2016 11:04:07 GMT
October 2016
kalreegar
|
Post by kalreegar on Oct 12, 2020 16:14:59 GMT
Also: it's not about the percentages, but the principles. And if not the principles: still the system is more danger and harm than benefit. Just a false sense of security. There are no known macro-alternatives. Not on a continental-scale level. there are/was: the evanuris, the old tevinter, the modern tevinter, the qunari, and the model of the circles of the south thedas. The end. As far as we know, free mages can exists within circumscribed and particular contexts (small groups like dalish or primitive tribes, isolated from the world, or larger groups, but tied with millenary rules and traditions, strict codes of honour and loyalty, rituals and proven mechanisms of self-regulation, like the mortalitasi or rivain witches o the wardens). And maybe in a Leliana Divine Epilogue. So, the assumption that the Circle system is more danger and harm than benefit + if everybody are free to do whatever they want things will be better in the long term -> is just an assumption, and IMO not particularly justified or credible in the light of the facts. but hey, at the end of the day the epilogue of DAI makes everyone happy. The restoration of Vivienne succeeds (with possibly granting mages more freedom if templars recruited/allied + CoE after trespasser), the cautious reform of Cassandra succeeds, and also the revolution of Leliana succeeds (but anyway the circles and CoE are established, even if they are fully independent). everything seems to be going well... for now. my god, i can't wait to leave south thedas give me one real, proud magicracy of bloodmages and let's get it over with. Let's think about other, more importat things. The blight. The red Lyrium. The Abyss. The titans. The black city.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 12, 2020 16:38:15 GMT
Also: it's not about the percentages, but the principles. And if not the principles: still the system is more danger and harm than benefit. Just a false sense of security. There are no known macro-alternatives. Not on a continental-scale level. there are/was: the evanuris, the old tevinter, the modern tevinter, the qunari, and the model of the circles of the south thedas. The end. As far as we know, free mages can exists within circumscribed and particular contexts (small groups like dalish or primitive tribes, isolated from the world, or larger groups, but tied with millenary rules and traditions, strict codes of honour and loyalty, rituals and proven mechanisms of self-regulation, like the mortalitasi or rivain witches o the wardens). And maybe in a Leliana Divine Epilogue. So, the assumption that the Circle system is more danger and harm than benefit + if everybody are free to do whatever they want things will be better in the long term -> is just an assumption, and IMO not particularly justified or credible in the light of the facts. but hey, at the end of the day the epilogue of DAI makes everyone happy. The restoration of Vivienne succeeds (with possibly granting mages more freedom if templars recruited/allied + CoE after trespasser), the cautious reform of Cassandra succeeds, and also the revolution of Leliana succeeds (but anyway the circles and CoE are established, even if they are fully independent). everything seems to be going well... for now. my god, i can't wait to leave south thedas give me one real, proud magicracy of bloodmages and let's get it over with. Let's think about other, more importat things. The blight. The red Lyrium. The Abyss. The titans. The black city. Look! When did I say, they don't need education? When did even ANDERS say such things? When did anyone say, they can do what they want? Nobody can. There are laws and law-enforcements that prevent it. The law-enforcement imprison the criminals, not the possible criminals. Prisons for the criminals, not for someone who's able to commit crimes (let's lock everyone then... but who will guarding them?) Again: in the age of Evanuris, EVERYONE was mage. The Evanuris is just like Orlesian nobility – for example. They had slaves? Orlesians as well: Fiona was a slave – for example. Also: you speak about Tevinter – they have slaves... mostly elves, but not only elves (also not just non-mages) – but much easier to trade elves – who cares in Southern, if some knife-ear disappear from the Alienages...? The Evanuris were simple nobility in their age. Thevinter is terrible – but also Orlais. And especially Fenris said, there were Magisters who tried to stop the slavery. I see them still better tha the Qun, and tevinter's main problem is the slavery. (Oh, yes, there are many wonder in Thedas, and give me back the blood magic – and let my protagonist be possessed...)
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
31,176
gervaise21
13,096
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 12, 2020 17:40:26 GMT
There are no known macro-alternatives. Not on a continental-scale level. May be the problem is you don't need something on a macro-level. If each nation was able to decide for itself, it is likely each would come up with their own way of dealing with the problem. They have already done so in Rivain, where the old Circle system and the Chantry was only really in control in the capital. You also have Nevarra where the Mortalitassi hold a great deal of power but are apparently (according to Tevinter Nights) happy with a situation where non-mages have the tiresome job of running the country. I suspect they were established before the Circles became closed prisons in the south, which is why it was not possible to remove them thereafter. If you study the history of the southern Chantry in WoT it is clear that the original Circles were very much run on Tevinter lines. They were somewhere that young mages could be educated before returning to the community, plus somewhere more advance magical experimentation could be carried out under Templar supervision, which was a sensible way to ensure tragedies didn't occur if it ran out of control. (Something Justinia ignored when she authorised Pharamond's experiment concerning tranquility with horrific results). Drakon permitted mages to live in the community and even serve the ruling classes, so long as they did not unduly influence policy, did not become rulers themselves and did not practice blood magic. It is pretty clear they only tightened the restrictions on mages in response to the rift with the Chantry in Tevinter. However, just because of what occurred there, did not necessarily translate into mages everywhere wanting to take power. One of the problems with the Circle system is that it makes mages regard themselves as a group separate from their communities rather than part of them. If you let mages stay within their communities, where they would definitely be in the minority, they are more likely to identify with the other people in their families or village groups rather than automatically teaming up with other mages. Most mages have only limited magical power so would have no reason to be overly ambitious and quite content to confine themselves to healing and other beneficial magic.
|
|