Addictress
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Post by Addictress on Sept 10, 2016 2:25:22 GMT
Again, intention doesn't matter. If there is something which technically justifies it, then it counts as a tragic consequence. In this case, I think matters. I don't like the thought, that I will to ally with someone who wants to kill a bunch of people, and she it has long been planning this. Of course, if I play an evil character, it's good way. You're not really allying with her, though. You're just following the lore. Like if you're a mage who is basically in agreement with the original Chantry and you think there is a lot of corruption in the Circle (for instance Orsino had that blood mage note at the end) then it's just a consequence of in-game situations, Meredith or not. But like others said, the Circle wasn't really corrupt, it was the outside mages. But there could be a Hawke that feels there is corruption inside the circle as well based on other things. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 2:28:52 GMT
In this case, I think matters. I don't like the thought, that I will to ally with someone who wants to kill a bunch of people, and she it has long been planning this. Of course, if I play an evil character, it's good way. You're not really allying with her, though. You're just following the lore. Like if you're a mage who is basically in agreement with the original Chantry and you think there is a lot of corruption in the Circle (for instance Orsino had that blood mage note at the end) then it's just a consequence of in-game situations, Meredith or not. But like others said, the Circle wasn't really corrupt, it was the outside mages. But there could be a Hawke that feels there is corruption inside the circle as well based on other things. But s/he is free and want to stay as free. Why s/he think that the others does not deserve the same to what is s/he? This would be hypocrisy... |
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Addictress
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: 0bsess
Posts: 741 Likes: 1,236
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Post by Addictress on Sept 10, 2016 2:30:47 GMT
You're not really allying with her, though. You're just following the lore. Like if you're a mage who is basically in agreement with the original Chantry and you think there is a lot of corruption in the Circle (for instance Orsino had that blood mage note at the end) then it's just a consequence of in-game situations, Meredith or not. But like others said, the Circle wasn't really corrupt, it was the outside mages. But there could be a Hawke that feels there is corruption inside the circle as well based on other things. But s/he is free and want to stay as free. Why s/he think that the others does not deserve the same to what is s/he? This would be hypocrisy... It's not just freedom. Freedom is one tiny aspect of a much larger system of issues. There is also the fact that the fear of magic is legitimate. Magic is supposed to be unfairly powerful and dangerous. Like nuclear weapons, so to speak. |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 10, 2016 2:36:55 GMT
Perhaps I understand your position, in a warrior's/rogue's viewpoint. But if a mage Hawke believe the Circle-system, and Meredith's truth, s/he need to go into the Circle, because the magic and mages (the s/he him/herself too) dangerous. Its too bad mage Hawke couldn't tell her/his mother to stuff it when suggesting going to Kirkwall that have a lot of templars. If my mage Hawke were ever to use blood magic, I might agree she/he could be dangerous. So a mage has to support mages? If Cullen was suggesting, he should've step in Merdith's face and have her relieved of duty. But he didn't. He turned the other cheek. It wasn't until Hawke and Meredith were facing each other that he finally grabs a pair and tells Meredith to stand down. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 2:45:49 GMT
In this situation yes, of course. Or, why not go into the circle, because s/he is dangerous, and certainly do not want to stay free, because all mages are dangerous, included s/he her/himself (if s/he don't want hurt his/her mother, then after than she died...). According the logic of the story a not hyppocrite/evil Hawke can not support the templars (maybe at the end, just for Carver). |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 10, 2016 2:46:53 GMT
Anders was right. Elthina did nothing. She was not neutral. The tool is debatable, the objective is not. How do they say? Necessary sacrifices? The mages and templars both is the chanty's victim. Meredith was planned the extermination of the entire Circle. That's better? The Circles are dangerous, cruel and unjust. So because she doesn't do nothing he believes its ok to blow up a building? Sure. Why not? It didn't occur to him to go talk with someone about that? But then again he was an idiot the moment he decided it would be a good idea to merge with a spirit. Not all are punished. A few are spared depending on what the player chooses |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 10, 2016 2:49:04 GMT
In this situation yes, of course. Or, why not go into the circle, because s/he is dangerous, and certainly do not want to stay free, because all mages are dangerous, included s/he her/himself. According the logic of the story a not hyppocrite/evil Hawke can not support the templars (maybe at the end, just for Carver). Incorrect. There is nothing that compels mage Hawke to support the mages if he/she chooses not to. |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 10, 2016 2:52:52 GMT
I don't think you'll ever see me supporting Anders. What he did was monstrous, and Hawke executed him last time I played Act 3. But why does that mean every other mage deserves to die? Anders acted alone. Too bad there wasn't an option to have Fenris use his hand thing on the guy or maybe keep him alive for the victims families to apply their own brand of justice on the guy I like playing mage Hawke. Lots of fun. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 2:53:02 GMT
After the dirtbag, that calls himself Anders, murdered everyone in the chantry. Anders was right. Elthina did nothing. She was not neutral. The tool is debatable, the objective is not. How do they say? Necessary sacrifices? The mages and templars both is the chanty's victim. Meredith was planned the extermination of the entire Circle. That's better? The Circles are dangerous, cruel and unjust. And still no matter, what Anders did. Meredith is lunatic, and the Circle mages are innocent in the Anders' action. Why should they be punished? First, regarding "Anders was right. Elthina did nothing." Second, if you think Anders is right then you would support Meredith with her purge of the Circle. That was Ander's whole plan. He would kill Elthina, who was the only person keeping Meredith from enacting the Right of Annulment, and with no more obstacles Meredith would exterminate the Circle. The Kirkwall Circle would then be seen as a martyr and a rallying cry for other mage Circles since an innocent Circle was wiped out by the Templars. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 2:53:29 GMT
Anders was right. Elthina did nothing. She was not neutral. The tool is debatable, the objective is not. How do they say? Necessary sacrifices? The mages and templars both is the chanty's victim. Meredith was planned the extermination of the entire Circle. That's better? The Circles are dangerous, cruel and unjust. So because she doesn't do nothing he believes its ok to blow up a building? Sure. Why not? It didn't occur to him to go talk with someone about that? But then again he was an idiot the moment he decided it would be a good idea to merge with a spirit. Not all are punished. A few are spared depending on what the player chooses There are situations where the idleness is big sin. Meredith wanted Annulment. All mages would be slaying. (Never sided with her, it's evil thing. The Circle-system completely wrong, unacceptable.) |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 3:06:43 GMT
Anders was right. Elthina did nothing. She was not neutral. The tool is debatable, the objective is not. How do they say? Necessary sacrifices? The mages and templars both is the chanty's victim. Meredith was planned the extermination of the entire Circle. That's better? The Circles are dangerous, cruel and unjust. And still no matter, what Anders did. Meredith is lunatic, and the Circle mages are innocent in the Anders' action. Why should they be punished? [...] Second, if you think Anders is right then you would support Meredith with her purge of the Circle. That was Ander's whole plan. He would kill Elthina, who was the only person keeping Meredith from enacting the Right of Annulment, and with no more obstacles Meredith would exterminate the Circle. The Kirkwall Circle would then be seen as a martyr and a rallying cry for other mage Circles since an innocent Circle was wiped out by the Templars. No. Because Anders not with magic did what he did. So it does not justify that magic is dangerous. It could have been even an assassin. And: Anders was not a member of the Circle. His status at the moment was deserter Grey Warden, but if you are Grey warden, then not matter, you left the order or not, you still Grey Warden: this order you can not really leave... So: there is nothing to justify Meredith intention to purge the Circle. But no matter, what did Anders, sided with Meredith simple evil thing. Meredith not suitable for lead an army, because she is paranoid and powerhungry (why she don't let the nobles to choose a baron?). |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 3:11:16 GMT
[...] Second, if you think Anders is right then you would support Meredith with her purge of the Circle. That was Ander's whole plan. He would kill Elthina, who was the only person keeping Meredith from enacting the Right of Annulment, and with no more obstacles Meredith would exterminate the Circle. The Kirkwall Circle would then be seen as a martyr and a rallying cry for other mage Circles since an innocent Circle was wiped out by the Templars. No. Because Anders not with magic did what he did. So it does not justify that magic is dangerous. It could have been even an assassin. And: Anders was not a member of the Circle. His status at the moment was deserter Grey Warden, but if you are Grey warden, then not matter, you left the order or not, you still Grey Warden: this order you can not really leave... So: there is nothing to justify Meredith intention to purge the Circle. But no matter, what did Anders, sided with Meredith simple evil thing. Meredith not suitable for lead an army, because she is paranoid and powerhungry (why she don't let the nobles to choose a baron?). If you don't support the purge of the Circle, then you are going against what Anders wanted. He doesn't believe anything Meredith does, and you don't either, but he wants her to suceed in wiping out the Kirkwall Circle because in his mind their deaths will be a sacrifice for the cause that he hopes will help all the other mages. Luckily, no matter what the Circle of Magi writes him off as the warmonger he is. Same with the Templars writing off Meredith as the same. Both sides realized the truth: Kirkwall makes people crazy.  Alas, they find a different reason to go to war with each other but still. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 3:13:58 GMT
I don't get this whole Elthina wasn't doing anything. She was doing all she could: keeping Meredith from launching a Right of Annulment.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 3:23:32 GMT
I don't get this whole Elthina wasn't doing anything. She was doing all she could: keeping Meredith from launching a Right of Annulment. She would have to dismiss Meredith. She knew how dangerous she is. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 3:27:33 GMT
I don't get this whole Elthina wasn't doing anything. She was doing all she could: keeping Meredith from launching a Right of Annulment. She would have to dismiss Meredith. She knew how dangerous she is. I believe that duty falls to the Seekers of Truth, not her. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 3:31:18 GMT
There are situations where the idleness is big sin. Meredith wanted Annulment. All mages would be slaying. (Never sided with her, it's evil thing. The Circle-system completely wrong, unacceptable.) I keep seeing Elthina get blamed for what happened like she would have been the deciding factor. Meredith threatened to kill Viscount Dumar if he didn't toe the line, she tries to get the city guard under her thumb, and she tries to kill Hawke even if Hawke sides with her. She clearly doesn't care about anyone's authority but her own. I believe even if Elthina did do something, Meredith would have killed her and found a way to blame a mage for it. What was Elthina supposed to do about it anyway (Would be nice, if Meredith would have killed Elthina.) Then Elthina was a coward, but this is not right, she felt safe herself. Dismiss Meredith, or at least stand by Orsino against Meredith. She knew, what cruel is Meredith. But what do you want to say? You know: Meredith was dangerous mad. We agree in this. She is not acceptable, whatever did Anders. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 3:37:42 GMT
She would have to dismiss Meredith. She knew how dangerous she is. I believe that duty falls to the Seekers of Truth, not her. I don't know, maybe you right, the fact: she declared to Hawke, that she very sorry for mages, but dont want to do anything. |
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Post by Sifr on Sept 10, 2016 3:44:11 GMT
I believe that duty falls to the Seekers of Truth, not her. Considering how Lambert ran things as Lord Seeker, it's not really all that surprising that the Seekers deferred to Meredith's judgment any time an investigation into mistreatment and abuses of power were reported in Kirkwall. With how Cassandra speaks of it and how they should have investigated "more closely", it makes me wonder if certain Seekers weren't rubber-stamping the Kirkwall case files as "Acceptable" before anyone was even sent to assess the situation and evidence was deliberately ignored. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 3:46:58 GMT
I believe that duty falls to the Seekers of Truth, not her. I don't know, maybe you right, the fact: she declared to Hawke, that she very sorry for mages, but dont want to do anything. I'd like a source on her not wanting to do anything. Again, stopping Meredith from committing a massacre is doing a big something. I believe that duty falls to the Seekers of Truth, not her. Considering how Lambert ran things as Lord Seeker, it's not really all that surprising that the Seekers deferred to Meredith's judgment any time an investigation into mistreatment and abuses of power were reported in Kirkwall. With how Cassandra speaks of it and how they should have investigated "more closely", it makes me wonder if certain Seekers weren't rubber-stamping the Kirkwall case files as "Acceptable" before anyone was even sent to assess the situation and bring back any findings. True, but my point was that Elthina wasn't the one in a position to remove Meredith. At most I can see her being able to send a message showing concern, but anything beyond that falls to the Templars and especially the Seekers whom one of their roles is to police Templars. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 3:49:05 GMT
No. Because Anders not with magic did what he did. So it does not justify that magic is dangerous. It could have been even an assassin. And: Anders was not a member of the Circle. His status at the moment was deserter Grey Warden, but if you are Grey warden, then not matter, you left the order or not, you still Grey Warden: this order you can not really leave... So: there is nothing to justify Meredith intention to purge the Circle. But no matter, what did Anders, sided with Meredith simple evil thing. Meredith not suitable for lead an army, because she is paranoid and powerhungry (why she don't let the nobles to choose a baron?). If you don't support the purge of the Circle, then you are going against what Anders wanted. He doesn't believe anything Meredith does, and you don't either, but he wants her to suceed in wiping out the Kirkwall Circle because in his mind their deaths will be a sacrifice for the cause that he hopes will help all the other mages. Luckily, no matter what the Circle of Magi writes him off as the warmonger he is. Same with the Templars writing off Meredith as the same. Both sides realized the truth: Kirkwall makes people crazy. Alas, they find a different reason to go to war with each other but still. Anders or anyone else, no matter. The war is necessarly, if there is no peaceful solution. The Circle-system totally wrong, and the Chantry does not care about it. As Elthina herself about the Kirkwall Circle. Yes, Kirkwall seems evil... |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 10, 2016 3:51:48 GMT
If you don't support the purge of the Circle, then you are going against what Anders wanted. He doesn't believe anything Meredith does, and you don't either, but he wants her to suceed in wiping out the Kirkwall Circle because in his mind their deaths will be a sacrifice for the cause that he hopes will help all the other mages. Luckily, no matter what the Circle of Magi writes him off as the warmonger he is. Same with the Templars writing off Meredith as the same. Both sides realized the truth: Kirkwall makes people crazy. Alas, they find a different reason to go to war with each other but still. Anders or anyone else, no matter. The war is necessarly, if there is no peaceful solution. The Circle-system totally wrong, and the Chantry does not care about it. As Elthina herself about the Kirkwall Circle. Yes, Kirkwall seems evil... I disagree that the war was necessary, and that there was no peaceful solution. I also disagree that the Circle system is completely wrong, since there are many parts about it that are good like a place for mages to learn how to control their magic. Even the Tevinter Imperium has Circles. And clearly the Chantry did care about it, since the Divine sent the Left Hand to investigate the situation. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 3:57:50 GMT
I don't know, maybe you right, the fact: she declared to Hawke, that she very sorry for mages, but dont want to do anything. I'd like a source on her not wanting to do anything. Again, stopping Meredith from committing a massacre is doing a big something. She tells that, when Hawke helps Anders to move into the Chantry imperceptible, if I remember correctly. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 4:00:54 GMT
Anders or anyone else, no matter. The war is necessarly, if there is no peaceful solution. The Circle-system totally wrong, and the Chantry does not care about it. As Elthina herself about the Kirkwall Circle. Yes, Kirkwall seems evil... I disagree that the war was necessary, and that there was no peaceful solution. I also disagree that the Circle system is completely wrong, since there are many parts about it that are good like a place for mages to learn how to control their magic. Even the Tevinter Imperium has Circles. And clearly the Chantry did care about it, since the Divine sent the Left Hand to investigate the situation. Sometimes the revolutions only serves to call attention to something that is already intolerable. This is necessary when the peaceful tools have been exhausted, and no one responded. Not the Circles are wrong, the Circle-system are wrong. The prison system. Circles are useful, as schools and libraries (just as in Tevinter). The Divine had not care about the mages, just about the Order, as I see. If the Divine would care about the mages, she would abolish this jails, and convert to schools, and libraries, and prohibits the rite of tranquility. She had not done this things. She had not care about mages. |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2016 15:11:33 GMT
But s/he is free and want to stay as free. Why s/he think that the others does not deserve the same to what is s/he? This would be hypocrisy... It's not just freedom. Freedom is one tiny aspect of a much larger system of issues. There is also the fact that the fear of magic is legitimate. Magic is supposed to be unfairly powerful and dangerous. Like nuclear weapons, so to speak. The Circle is not only unjust and cruel, but also very dangerous. Often I wrote why. In the Circle are practically only those who are not quite intensively lick the Templars' ass or don't have some influential supporters (as Vivienne for example), so they can't go out. The Grey Wardens also out of the Circles, then we have a lot of mages, who nothing prevents from to summon a bunch of demon, or become an abomination or something. But why want to be abomination ANYONE? Most of mages don't want more, just live as anyone else. But they are can't because of Chantry propaganda and Circle-system. You can't legalize the cruelty with fear. And as I said: if mage Hawke not a hypocrite, as they arrived in Kirkwall, s/he need to go into the Circle, because s/he dont want to be free, because s/he know, that no one mage deserve the freedom (if s/he is rogue or warrior, s/he know his/her duty, then take Bethany, and put her into the Circle). |
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Sept 10, 2016 15:17:37 GMT
Meridith was a crazy zealoth who blamed the Circle for things that were happening thanks to mages who weren't inside the Circle.
But she wasn't the only problem, the Chantry was also full of people who either feed the flames of hate or simply omit themselves from deal with the situation.
And there was also the crazy mages and psycopaths like Anders or the one who killed Hawke's mother doing their fair share to make the situation worse.
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