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Post by phoray on Dec 26, 2018 16:43:03 GMT
I'm totally repeating myself. but for two and half games we were completely unaware that the Veil was an artificial construct. Now that players know, and even with dire warnings about what it would mean to the world for it to be absent, there are a large number of players calling for it to come down. This leads me to believe that everyone has disliked the world presented to us thus far and essentially just want to cleanse it and start anew. This desire boggles me because that means you don't like Dragon Age or have a STRONG "grass is greener on the other side" pair of glasses on. That this new world would be that much more interesting and better because everyone would have magic*, when to me it would just make the world more bland? *anyone that survived anyway. Why are you playing in a game world you dislike?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 16:46:19 GMT
I'm totally repeating myself. but for two and half games we were completely unaware that the Veil was an artificial construct. Now that players know, and even with dire warnings about what it would mean to the world for it to be absent, there are a large number of players calling for it to come down. This leads me to believe that everyone has disliked the world presented to us thus far and essentially just want to cleanse it and start anew. This desire boggles me because that means you don't like Dragon Age or have a STRONG "grass is greener on the other side" pair of glasses on. That this new world would be that much more interesting and better because everyone would have magic*, when to me it would just make the world more bland? *anyone that survived anyway. Why are you playing in a game world you dislike? For me, mages shackled, elves as slaves, humans and qunari causing wars and the leadership sitting on their butts doing nothing is currently not the world I want to save.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 26, 2018 16:47:48 GMT
Why are you playing in a game world you dislike? I'm just curious, is all... and I wouldn't mind Solas' plans completely backfiring, like the bringing down of the veil causing an effect he didn't account for. And I really do enjoy the '' rebuilding of a world that was in turmoil '' concept. I really love it. But Solas needs to be erased one way or another.
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Post by ellehaym on Dec 26, 2018 16:48:01 GMT
I think Solas is going to die (or close to it)regardless of our choice of whether or not to redeem him. If redeemed, he'll just end up dying via noble sacrifice trying to stop a bigger threat.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 26, 2018 16:50:12 GMT
I think Solas is going to die (or close to it)regardless of our choice of whether or not to redeem him. If redeemed, he'll just end up dying via noble sacrifice trying to stop a bigger threat. Ding. Ding. Ding. A point made. He'll die regardless, through our choice or by his choice.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 16:52:56 GMT
I think Solas is going to die (or close to it)regardless of our choice of whether or not to redeem him. If redeemed, he'll just end up dying via noble sacrifice trying to stop a bigger threat. I think a romanced Inquisitor will too. I could be wrong but the idol seems to repeat history in DAI. Instead of what might be Mythal/Andraste with a bald elf holding her, and another person lying beneath with a missing arm, we see Solas form the same pose with Flemeth and we know who loses their arm in DAI.
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Post by phoray on Dec 26, 2018 16:54:27 GMT
For me, seeing mages shackled, elves as slaves, humans and qunari causing wars and the leadership sitting on their butts doing nothing is currently not the world I want to save. I guess I just agree with Falessan who began to have hope for this world because of people like Briala. My canon Warden and canon Hawke and Canon Inquisitor has done good in this world as well, and I'm not so narcissistic to believe they were the only good people doing good acts who are worth saving. Dragon Age has been a time of Turmoil and change, and in a short amount of time, I feel like things have gotten better, even if it's been slowly. Just like our own world. It hadn't been helped that we make massive strides in game only for the writers to write in later that those strides have failed outright or have become muted to accommodate all player world states.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 16:58:07 GMT
For me, seeing mages shackled, elves as slaves, humans and qunari causing wars and the leadership sitting on their butts doing nothing is currently not the world I want to save. I guess I just agree with Falessan who began to have hope for this world because of people like Briala. My canon Warden and canon Hawke and Canon Inquisitor has done good in this world as well, and I'm not so narcissistic to believe they were the only good people doing good acts who are worth saving. Dragon Age has been a time of Turmoil and change, and in a short amount of time, I feel like things have gotten better, even if it's been slowly. Just like our own world. It hadn't been helped that we make massive strides in game only for the writers to write in later that those strides have failed outright or have become muted to accommodate all player world states. That's where choices will matter I think. If we did everything we could in DAI and also depending on the Divine of choice, I would hope we get a chance to see our efforts pay off in 4, even though in Trespasser it feels like everything we did was for nothing. Solas saved us and then warned us of the qunari threat, so we have that to worry about too it seems, especially since it implied we are heading to Tevinter. Maybe our choices there will help unite eveyone if we helped Ferelden, the Free Marches and Orlais rebuild in the previous games.
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Post by ellawyn on Dec 26, 2018 17:03:30 GMT
I'm totally repeating myself. but for two and half games we were completely unaware that the Veil was an artificial construct. Now that players know, and even with dire warnings about what it would mean to the world for it to be absent, there are a large number of players calling for it to come down. This leads me to believe that everyone has disliked the world presented to us thus far and essentially just want to cleanse it and start anew. This desire boggles me because that means you don't like Dragon Age or have a STRONG "grass is greener on the other side" pair of glasses on. That this new world would be that much more interesting and better because everyone would have magic*, when to me it would just make the world more bland? *anyone that survived anyway. Why are you playing in a game world you dislike? I don't long for it. Tbh, I have no opinion on it at all. It's the sort of thing I'll judge when I see it, because I can't really come to any substantial opinion prior to that.
Mostly, I just feel like it's what the story's building towards. So I suppose I long for it in that way, because if it didn't happen, it'd feel like the story made a lot of noise about something and never delivered. In the same vein, I highly doubt we'll never see the Black City, or reach some conclusion about the remaining Old Gods. It's why I'll be miffed if we don't see the Inquisitor return in some fashion (Although that is also something I long for and don't simply expect.)
That being said, I doubt tearing the Veil down will cleanse everything. Probably it will kill enough people and cause enough destruction for it to still be A Pretty Bad Thing. But I don't think it'll kill everyone. As for making the world more interesting, or disliking the one presented to us - I seesaw on that. I like the world presented in a fictional sort of way. I like the world-building, the lore. But from a moral standpoint, it's just - terrible. I daresay that's actually the point, even, and part of what they were going for with Solas' character. From the moment we enter the world in Origins, we can see that it's got a mess of issues. Big spooky magic stuff like the Blight aside, the world's rife with discrimination and oppression. Slavery, alieanges, mages, the destruction of elven culture twice over, in Elvhenan and again in the Dales, and even a third time if you count the continued antagonizing of the Dalish. The world's a bit of a shit sack.
And that's where Solas is coming from. He knows, and he's horrified too. But his methods in resolving it are a bit, uhhhhh... you know, deadly? Objectionable?
Regardless, the broken-ness of the world is the point, I'd say. The narrative wants us to want to fix it.
EDIT: dammit LadyC how dare you make my same point but much more succinct and generally less egregiously wordy. And also like twenty minutes before I did.
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Post by phoray on Dec 26, 2018 17:04:24 GMT
Maybe our choices there will help unite eveyone if we helped Ferelden, the Free Marches and Orlais rebuild in the previous games. As cool as that idea is, it does create a situation where a "correct world state" effect comes into play. "I can have the happy ending, but only if I change literally all/half of my previous choices so that Warden/Hawke/Inky did this and this and this." It reminds me a bit of Mass Effect 3, where if you did all the things and made the "right" alliances, AND chose Destroy, you could have a 10 second scene implying your Shepard was still alive. Welp... I made all the right alliances sans one but there was nothing in my canon shepard that was going to choose Destroy. So my canon ending is "Sacrifice and Death" and I just get to be envious of the little head canon worlds of lovliness all the Destroyers get. As much as I want their to be a Higher Cost to getting a "stay alive loving Solas" ending, I don't want it to come at the price of changing the choices of four entire games. But it also shouldn't be so shallow as to only involve a bit of dialogue, as if now you're suddenly so much more eloquent in DA4 than we were in Trespasser.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 17:09:29 GMT
I was thinking of ME3 too, but with a better chance at surviving and not having it as a last minute addition for easing fan rage.
This does make me want to see a person who made bad choices in every game play 4 and continue with bad choices and see just how terrible the game ends! Solas rules the world with an iron fist? We kill Solas and rule the world as the Maker and enslave everyone? That would be hilarious in its own way. We could really mess up the world or make it beautiful if allowed those choices.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 26, 2018 17:17:15 GMT
I was thinking of ME3 too, but with a better chance at surviving and not having it as a last minute addition for easing fan rage. This does make me want to see a person who made bad choices in every game play 4 and continue with bad choices and see just how terrible the game ends! Solas rules the world with an iron fist? We kill Solas and rule the world as the Maker and enslave everyone? That would be hilarious in its own way. We could really mess up the world or make it beautiful if allowed those choices. Please and thank you.
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Post by ellawyn on Dec 26, 2018 17:19:25 GMT
I'm fine with getting stuck with a tragic ending based on the choices I made. Tbh it doesn't bother me at all when my PCs get shafted or otherwise are denied their happy ending, even if I was honestly trying to make the best choices I could - hell, my canon worldstate is an Alistair-mance where he suicides by Archdemon, because I feed off angst. I want the best, most emotionally engaging story they can make. If that's a tragic one, then so be it. I'll dry my eyes with some sappy fix-it fic.
Do your worst, Bioware.
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Post by bella on Dec 26, 2018 17:23:44 GMT
I'm sure it'll be awkward for me to separate my own emotions towards Solas from those of our new protagonist. It was weird enough with Alistair in Inquisition, where I as a player was super excited to see him, yet I couldn't express that excitement in game because my Inquisitor really had no reason to even trust him at first. Same thing with the decision between Hawke and Alistair in the Fade. I like the idea of multiple protagonists but the dissonance it creates between myself and the character I'm playing at the time is kind of confusing.
Anyways, I guess the point I'm trying to make here is, at the end of Trespasser I chose to save Solas, but who know how I feel when a whole new protagonist is in the mix.
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 26, 2018 17:49:09 GMT
That this new world would be that much more interesting and better because everyone would have magic, when to me it would just make the world more bland? Everyone having magic is the end state. I think what people are interested in is the transition period. In the real world, we live on a societal and magical technological inflection point. The destruction of the Veil invention of the internet has made the dreamworld digital world bleed into reality more and more. Because it’s all new to us as a civilization, we have to develop new ways of interacting with each other. In particular, the fast spread of information has given spirits ideas a life of their own, far more than they could achieve with printed books alone. The most powerful demons ideas are not necessarily helpful, but they’re good at enraging or terrifying people to the point that they spread fast and are hard to dislodge once someone believes them. We can imagine some future when magic automation is a fully integrated part of society, when everyone’s physical needs are taken care of, and yeah, that could make for a fairly boring world (at least in terms of telling a dramatic story). But we’re not there yet, and we won’t be for a long time. Even if we could be magically granted full, worldwide Fade access technological advancement in an instant, our societies aren’t equipped to handle it. It could (and does, regularly) temporarily make things much much worse when connectivity is quickly introduced into a new area. The demons come pouring out, and no one has the skills for effectively dealing with them, because they never had to before. Even leaving aside the more controversial demons toxic ideas, we all know of those older internet users that are easy marks for desire demons email scams. And we’re going to hit another speedbump soon when self-driving vehicles make about a fifth of the workforce obsolete. Followed by even more and more unemployment as more stuff gets automated, but with not quite enough automation that everyone can be provided for without working. The end result is potentially a Star Trek-style utopia, but the transition period is going to be hellish. The story of how Thedosians we survive that transition is inherently interesting.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 18:34:25 GMT
You know, it's kinda amusing to watch the poll results and wonder if 'killing' Solas will reach even the exact 50% of 'saving' votes. Every time I enter the thread I see at least a few votes more on 'saving' side that keep the 'killing' at 49.somethingsomething %
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 18:45:24 GMT
That this new world would be that much more interesting and better because everyone would have magic, when to me it would just make the world more bland? Everyone having magic is the end state. I think what people are interested in is the transition period. In the real world, we live on a societal and magical technological inflection point. The destruction of the Veil invention of the internet has made the dreamworld digital world bleed into reality more and more. Because it’s all new to us as a civilization, we have to develop new ways of interacting with each other. In particular, the fast spread of information has given spirits ideas a life of their own, far more than they could achieve with printed books alone. The most powerful demons ideas are not necessarily helpful, but they’re good at enraging or terrifying people to the point that they spread fast and are hard to dislodge once someone believes them. We can imagine some future when magic automation is a fully integrated part of society, when everyone’s physical needs are taken care of, and yeah, that could make for a fairly boring world (at least in terms of telling a dramatic story). But we’re not there yet, and we won’t be for a long time. Even if we could be magically granted full, worldwide Fade access technological advancement in an instant, our societies aren’t equipped to handle it. It could (and does, regularly) temporarily make things much much worse when connectivity is quickly introduced into a new area. The demons come pouring out, and no one has the skills for effectively dealing with them, because they never had to before. Even leaving aside the more controversial demons toxic ideas, we all know of those older internet users that are easy marks for desire demons email scams. And we’re going to hit another speedbump soon when self-driving vehicles make about a fifth of the workforce obsolete. Followed by even more and more unemployment as more stuff gets automated, but with not quite enough automation that everyone can be provided for without working. The end result is potentially a Star Trek-style utopia, but the transition period is going to be hellish. The story of how Thedosians we survive that transition is inherently interesting. Haha, and how long and well-liked even the 'bland' Start Trek utopia is? Honestly, with so many sentient beings and ancient threats lurking in the Fade or else, and the fact that previous powerful, magical world full of immortal beings has ended with world-breaking tragedy the effects of which are felt in Thedas till today... why even assume that the world would be "more bland" in case magic comes back? That makes no sense to me at all. I mean, even if we assume that the best-case scenario happens and Solas and Inky somehow manage to smoothly usher a New Magical Age together and it's a more just, prettier world, I don't see how that in any way suggests that it's the end of all problems, or that old problems won't be replaced with new ones that will still stem from humans (and other humanoids) not being perfect, which - ironically - is why we find them so relatable. ...And now all of them would have some form of access to power that is reactive to willpower? And there are probably still way more ancient mysteries or threats lurking outside of known world? It's obvious that it means trouble.
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Post by phoray on Dec 26, 2018 18:49:50 GMT
What's that word or phrase for the big thing of today having to be outdone by the next big thing until everything is ridiculous?
That.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 26, 2018 18:52:57 GMT
I'm pretty sure Humans and Dwarves existed during the time of ancient Elves. So it is possible for them to live in a world without veil.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 26, 2018 18:53:26 GMT
What's that word or phrase for the big thing of today having to be outdone by the next big thing until everything is ridiculous? That. Power creep? 🤔
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 26, 2018 19:02:33 GMT
Everyone having magic is the end state. I think what people are interested in is the transition period. In the real world, we live on a societal and magical technological inflection point. The destruction of the Veil invention of the internet has made the dreamworld digital world bleed into reality more and more. Because it’s all new to us as a civilization, we have to develop new ways of interacting with each other. In particular, the fast spread of information has given spirits ideas a life of their own, far more than they could achieve with printed books alone. The most powerful demons ideas are not necessarily helpful, but they’re good at enraging or terrifying people to the point that they spread fast and are hard to dislodge once someone believes them. We can imagine some future when magic automation is a fully integrated part of society, when everyone’s physical needs are taken care of, and yeah, that could make for a fairly boring world (at least in terms of telling a dramatic story). But we’re not there yet, and we won’t be for a long time. Even if we could be magically granted full, worldwide Fade access technological advancement in an instant, our societies aren’t equipped to handle it. It could (and does, regularly) temporarily make things much much worse when connectivity is quickly introduced into a new area. The demons come pouring out, and no one has the skills for effectively dealing with them, because they never had to before. Even leaving aside the more controversial demons toxic ideas, we all know of those older internet users that are easy marks for desire demons email scams. And we’re going to hit another speedbump soon when self-driving vehicles make about a fifth of the workforce obsolete. Followed by even more and more unemployment as more stuff gets automated, but with not quite enough automation that everyone can be provided for without working. The end result is potentially a Star Trek-style utopia, but the transition period is going to be hellish. The story of how Thedosians we survive that transition is inherently interesting. Haha, and how long and well-liked even the 'bland' Start Trek utopia is? Heh I sort of realized that as I was typing it. Though in fairness, Star Trek specifically follows the extreme risk-takers of that society. No one has to travel the universe in a battleship equipped with an inexplicably deadly holodeck, they willingly inflict that on themselves.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 19:18:42 GMT
Haha, and how long and well-liked even the 'bland' Start Trek utopia is? Heh I sort of realized that as I was typing it. Though in fairness, Star Trek specifically follows the extreme risk-takers of that society. No one has to travel the universe in a battleship equipped with an inexplicably deadly holodeck, they willingly inflict that on themselves. True... but we aren't following random Joe Schmoes in Dragon Age universe either The story's where the conflict is (whatever that conflict is), and it's no different in any other series or narrative.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 19:35:01 GMT
What's that word or phrase for the big thing of today having to be outdone by the next big thing until everything is ridiculous? That. What you're talking about ain't something that is related to how the world works as much as it is to how the story is told. We don't even have to search for examples of that: just look at Dragon Age. Thedas ain't a fully magical world yet, far from it - yet the story is getting so big and the stakes so high that it's hard to imagine what we will deal with next to rival that. Pushing the 'reset' button and scaling down stakes, by... oh, I don't know: maybe restoring the world to some semblance of balance by letting magic come back.... could serve as a perfect opportunity in the story to deal with power creep or stakes escalation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 19:47:24 GMT
You know, Solasmancers get a lot of crap for liking an abusive relationship, but tbh the people who violently loathe Solas unsettle me way more. At least Solavellans don't have disconcertingly detailed fantasies about how we'll torture and eventually execute someone.
As for the rest of it - The Veil is coming down, no question, no matter what we do. There's too much in the narrative thus far that demands it - particularly Sandal's prophecy about how exactly that thing will happen. The Solas arc will end in the Veil being torn down - either because he went through with it, or we talked him downBut But when someone wants to kill billions... He doesn't want to kill billions. Thedas is on a timer no matter what he does. What he's choosing is which group of people he's going to go down fighting with, just like your Inquisitor does when they choose whether or not to save the Chargers or the 100 Qunari on the dreadnought.
Anyway...
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 26, 2018 20:16:29 GMT
He doesn't want to kill billions. Thedas is on a timer no matter what he does. Whilst you can argue that this is the case, this is not what he says. My whole objection to his reveal in Trespasser is that he says so much but no more about "why this world has to die". If he had turned around and said that the current world is doomed regardless, so I'm just trying to salvage what I can, it would be more understandable. However, he doesn't. He simply says that to bring back the world of the elves, the present world has to go. To save/restore his people, he is willing to sacrifice the rest. He is not talking about political systems, he is talking about the fabric of reality. Then he has the cheek to say to the Inquisitor that he doesn't want people to suffer and wants them to have as nice a time of it as possible until he pulls the plug. He even suggests that he might be pleased if you can "prove him wrong" about the necessity for it, but doesn't give you any clue how you might achieve this or any other justification for destroying your world in order to bring back the world he destroyed previously.
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