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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 20:29:03 GMT
He doesn't want to kill billions. Thedas is on a timer no matter what he does. Whilst you can argue that this is the case, this is not what he says. My whole objection to his reveal in Trespasser is that he says so much but no more about "why this world has to die". If he had turned around and said that the current world is doomed regardless, so I'm just trying to salvage what I can, it would be more understandable. However, he doesn't. He simply says that to bring back the world of the elves, the present world has to go. To save/restore his people, he is willing to sacrifice the rest. He is not talking about political systems, he is talking about the fabric of reality. Then he has the cheek to say to the Inquisitor that he doesn't want people to suffer and wants them to have as nice a time of it as possible until he pulls the plug. He even suggests that he might be pleased if you can "prove him wrong" about the necessity for it, but doesn't give you any clue how you might achieve this or any other justification for destroying your world in order to bring back the world he destroyed previously. Solas: The Grey Wardens allow elves and dwarves into their ranks? Varric: Qunari too I imagine. They don't care about titles or blood, just stopping the Blight. Solas: A pity they do it so badly then. Blackwall: Would you care to repeat that? (Post-Revelations)
Solas: I would be happy to argue the point with an actual Grey Warden. Solas: Argue if you like, your fight against the darkspawn is noble, but what progress have you made? (Otherwise)
Varric: Give them some credit, it's not like you can study the Blight safely. I may not like everything they've done, but without the wardens, we'd all be blighted by now. Solas: They've bought us some time, I will grant them that.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 26, 2018 20:29:55 GMT
Alright so... this has been discussed a bit, but when Sandal says, "one day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were." ...what does this mean, exactly? Will elves go back to being spirit-people? Will they not age anymore? (Were elves only considered immortal during uthenera or was it an all-the-time thing?) Will qunari cease to exist (if they were in fact magically engineered)? Will everyone be a mage or will they just be more magical, in the sense that they'll be more connected to their origins (Dagna: "for a moment I was around all my people" / Solas: "[Sera] you are the furthest from what you were meant to be").
I know we can't know all of this, but tbh I'm hoping there's something here that's not "everyone's a mage". But then you get Solas saying modern people are like Tranquil, or OGB Kieran saying that not being able to touch magic is like being blind.
There are so many lines about change, and embracing change, and "the next age" (thanks again OGB Kieran)...
"Change is coming to the world. Many fear change and will fight it with every fiber of their being. But sometimes, change is what they need the most. Sometimes, change is what sets them free." - Morrigan
"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly." - Flemeth
"I like new but hate change. But I can't stop it this time. Usually I hope it doesn't matter, because lots of times I feel I've seen things before..." - Sera (ok this is during Trespasser but still)
If "everyone will be just like they were"... does that mean modern people will be like their ancestors? Because "everyone" was not alive before the Veil went up; current generation is a whole new crop of people and no less worthy of existence. Does it mean the ancients will be like they were, strong and.... not sleeping?
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 26, 2018 20:38:26 GMT
We're gonna go Super Saiyan once the veil goes down, awesome.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 21:10:46 GMT
Alright so... this has been discussed a bit, but when Sandal says, "one day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were." ...what does this mean, exactly? Will elves go back to being spirit-people? Will they not age anymore? (Were elves only considered immortal during uthenera or was it an all-the-time thing?) Will qunari cease to exist (if they were in fact magically engineered)? Will everyone be a mage or will they just be more magical, in the sense that they'll be more connected to their origins (Dagna: "for a moment I was around all my people" / Solas: "[Sera] you are the furthest from what you were meant to be"). I know we can't know all of this, but tbh I'm hoping there's something here that's not "everyone's a mage". But then you get Solas saying modern people are like Tranquil, or OGB Kieran saying that not being able to touch magic is like being blind. I recall you said once that in a world where everybody has even a hint of magical ability it means that they'd still be mages in your book. Well... in Thedas, regardless whether most people consider themselves non-magical, they are still magical people in one way or another. Magic is still part of their world/nature and their emotions and feelings appear to be intrinsically tied to it. They have literal souls or spirits, linked with the Fade as well. So they ARE magical people, even if they are ignorant or in denial of that fact. Or - as Solas has put it - the Veil has cut most people's conscious connection to the Fade, hence the issues. Or... the Veil took everything from the elves... even themselves (*hint, hint *). You mean if everybody... would be elves? I really, really, really don't think it's a coincidence that children from a union with, say, a human and an elf are always humans (to a point where 'elf-blooded' means nothing aside from social stigma)... Still, I wonder how much shape matters in a world of previously talented shapeshifters? Elvhen ruins are full of paintings of different creatures, most of them extinct. So what happened after connection to magic of every creature was tampered with - was it a matter of speedy, magical 'evolution' in the new world, or some populations forgetting more than others (there are suggestions across the story that this is the case) - or did something else decide that they got 'locked' in certain shapes? Given that DA is fairly intentionally tropey I wonder how much we're going to see this fantasy trope: obtaining certain shapes only to get stuck in it/forgetting how to turn back. Or would it be something like in Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea series*? *real spoilers for the book series, don't read if you don't want to know: Humans and dragons were once one race - the split occurred when dragons chose the life of fire and air (stuff that the Fade in DA is linked with), while humans chose earth and water (something Titans are linked to in DA).
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 26, 2018 21:47:23 GMT
Alright so... this has been discussed a bit, but when Sandal says, "one day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were." ...what does this mean, exactly? Will elves go back to being spirit-people? Will they not age anymore? (Were elves only considered immortal during uthenera or was it an all-the-time thing?) Will qunari cease to exist (if they were in fact magically engineered)? Will everyone be a mage or will they just be more magical, in the sense that they'll be more connected to their origins (Dagna: "for a moment I was around all my people" / Solas: "[Sera] you are the furthest from what you were meant to be"). I know we can't know all of this, but tbh I'm hoping there's something here that's not "everyone's a mage". But then you get Solas saying modern people are like Tranquil, or OGB Kieran saying that not being able to touch magic is like being blind. I recall you said once that in a world where everybody has even a hint of magical ability it means that they'd still be mages in your book. By mages I meant and still mean "if they can throw fireballs/paralyze people/cast magic missile with their mind". By being more magical (but not mages), I mean things like Sera seeing colors in the Crossroads, Dagna being able to feel her people, but still neither of them are capable of casting. I... can't say I'm a fan of the everyone's just a shapeshifting elf idea. Elves used to be shapeshifting spirit-beings, sure. Qunari are weird elf-dragon hybridizations, alright. And dwarves are their own thing. But humans are... what, elf-spirits that got trapped in normie form? I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 22:05:37 GMT
I recall you said once that in a world where everybody has even a hint of magical ability it means that they'd still be mages in your book. By mages I meant and still mean "if they can throw fireballs/paralyze people/cast magic missile with their mind". By being more magical (but not mages), I mean things like Sera seeing colors in the Crossroads, Dagna being able to feel her people, but still neither of them are capable of casting. One doesn't rule out the other. Seeing colors in Crossroads or Dagna being able to... do whatever she did... leaves open a possibility that more is achievable (Cole also suggests that Sera's accuracy with her bow is due to her connection with the Fade). Or that, even if they don't cast magic missiles with their mind their actions can still have a profound effect on the world, magic-wise. Demons do come from somewhere after all. Cassandra: Solas, I am sorry about your... friend. Solas: Thank you. Cassandra: I knew demons and spirits were similar, but I did not know one could become the other so easily. Solas: Not similar, Seeker. The same. The Chantry sees black and white, but nature is, and always has been, grey. A spirit is a purpose. A demon is that purpose perverted. Cassandra: That might be true with a spirit of compassion, but what is the purpose of a hunger demon? Solas: Survival. Satiation. The pleasure of taste, of feeding. True hunger, however, is much darker. Think of all those who starve in this world. Mankind has itself to blame for the existence of demons. ─────── Cassandra: I had not considered how fighting in our world might affect the Fade. Is it always thus, Solas? Solas: It is worse this time, with the Breach pulling spirits through against their will... But, yes. Every war, no matter how just, leads to hunger and rage... and so come the demons. Cassandra: It is said that generals should avoid fighting in the same battlefield too many times... Solas: The deaths, the rage - all of it weakens the Veil. But nothing is ever said of the effect war has upon the world of spirits, what we might be doing to them. Every war has unintended victims. All too many go unnoticed What is a 'normie form' exactly? And wouldn't a 'normie form' be elf one when Elvenhan was a thing? We still don't know what factors led to humans emerging as the dominant race in modern Thedas, though I do admit that 'humans are what happens when someone mostly forgets about magic' is an interesting idea, even if I'm unsure if it's a correct one.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 26, 2018 22:14:15 GMT
By mages I meant and still mean "if they can throw fireballs/paralyze people/cast magic missile with their mind". By being more magical (but not mages), I mean things like Sera seeing colors in the Crossroads, Dagna being able to feel her people, but still neither of them are capable of casting. One doesn't rule out the other. Seeing colors in Crossroads or Dagna being able to... do whatever she did... leaves open a possibility that more is achievable (Cole also suggests that Sera's accuracy with her bow is due to her connection with the Fade). Or that, even if they don't cast magic missiles in their mind their actions can still have a profound effect on the world, magic-wise. Demons do come from somewhere after all. Cassandra: Solas, I am sorry about your... friend. Solas: Thank you. Cassandra: I knew demons and spirits were similar, but I did not know one could become the other so easily. Solas: Not similar, Seeker. The same. The Chantry sees black and white, but nature is, and always has been, grey. A spirit is a purpose. A demon is that purpose perverted. Cassandra: That might be true with a spirit of compassion, but what is the purpose of a hunger demon? Solas: Survival. Satiation. The pleasure of taste, of feeding. True hunger, however, is much darker. Think of all those who starve in this world. Mankind has itself to blame for the existence of demons. ─────── Cassandra: I had not considered how fighting in our world might affect the Fade. Is it always thus, Solas? Solas: It is worse this time, with the Breach pulling spirits through against their will... But, yes. Every war, no matter how just, leads to hunger and rage... and so come the demons. Cassandra: It is said that generals should avoid fighting in the same battlefield too many times... Solas: The deaths, the rage - all of it weakens the Veil. But nothing is ever said of the effect war has upon the world of spirits, what we might be doing to them. Every war has unintended victims. All too many go unnoticed I know one doesn't rule out the other, I'm just hoping that maaaybe that's the extent of it, and that everyday peasants and merchants and monarchs of all races won't suddenly be able to cast spells even if they're more in tune with their spiritual side? I would assume "normie form" for elf-spirit-beings would be looking physically like an elf, yeah. But I thought from your post you were suggesting that some of the elf-spirit-beings got stuck in human form, and that that's where humans came from.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 22:38:54 GMT
I know one doesn't rule out the other, I'm just hoping that maaaybe that's the extent of it, and that everyday peasants and merchants and monarchs of all races won't suddenly be able to cast spells even if they're more in tune with their spiritual side? I don't personally think they would. We discussed it before and I argued that restored connection to the Fade doesn't necessarily mean that everybody will turn into battlemages or clean their house Matilda style. There are already suggestions in the story that, even in times of Elvenhan, there were people with different power levels or talents* and probably a lot of those whose magic would only manifest under specific circumstances, like rituals or prayer or how spirit population is affected and so on. *(similarly with mages in Circles - Minaeve could not throw fireballs. Seekers' talents are also unique to each individual) I was just throwing ideas out there, given that we have little in terms of evidence that any of this is the case. Buuuut, I wouldn't be surprised if there were creatures that were something else before, but either forgot or were made to forget, hence are stuck how they are until somebody restores their memories... Like, maybe dragons. Or halla. There are some graffiti featuring halla scattered around the world that suggest their origins may be... weird, if not disturbing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 22:55:05 GMT
Like, maybe dragons. Or halla. There are some graffiti featuring halla scattered around the world that suggest their origins may be... weird, if not disturbing. Along with halla which the elves literally call their bretheren, I've always thought that nugs were originally people, because of their creepy hands and feet. I get so grossed out when people talk about eating them.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2018 23:06:35 GMT
Like, maybe dragons. Or halla. There are some graffiti featuring halla scattered around the world that suggest their origins may be... weird, if not disturbing. Along with halla which the elves literally call their bretheren, I've always thought that nugs were originally people, because of their creepy hands and feet. I get so grossed out when people talk about eating them. Yea, I kinda wonder if Bioware will go there and we'll hear a lot of 'ewwww!' ATM I personally think of nugs as something of an equivalent of Fade's wisps - like, if not entirely formed or barely-there spirits gained a viable and permanent physical shape, it might as well be nugs ( nuggets of sentience? ).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 23:45:32 GMT
Along with halla which the elves literally call their bretheren, I've always thought that nugs were originally people, because of their creepy hands and feet. I get so grossed out when people talk about eating them. Yea, I kinda wonder if Bioware will go there and we'll hear a lot of 'ewwww!' ATM I personally think of nugs as something of an equivalent of Fade's wisps - like, if not entirely formed or barely-there spirits gained a viable and permanent physical shape, it might as well be nugs ( nuggets of sentience? ). There was a theory going around how that one widower in Redcliffe was married to a halla, because he said she carried him.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 1, 2019 18:34:21 GMT
SAVE him!
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 1, 2019 18:34:46 GMT
Then kill him in the next playthrough!
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Post by melbella on Jan 1, 2019 18:52:14 GMT
While I voted "kill," I actually think the decision won't be ours to make as the PC. I have a feeling that the loosed Evanuris will get to Solas long before we do, and I will be quite put out by the fact they robbed me of my revenge. Kind of how I was pissed at Solas for taking out Viddasala before I could.
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Post by grallon on Jan 7, 2019 17:45:03 GMT
... have a feeling that the loosed Evanuris will get to Solas long before we do, and I will be quite put out by the fact they robbed me of my revenge.
I've been thinking DA4 should end with the breaking of the last two seals holding the Black City closed and the escape of the Evanuris, so perhaps you're right. But how I would relish silencing that lying sob for good.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 8, 2019 2:28:15 GMT
... have a feeling that the loosed Evanuris will get to Solas long before we do, and I will be quite put out by the fact they robbed me of my revenge.
I've been thinking DA4 should end with the breaking of the last two seals holding the Black City closed and the escape of the Evanuris, so perhaps you're right. But how I would relish silencing that lying sob for good.
Wanting to stop him is a valid choice, but killing him seems extremely likely to produce the opposite result. Spirits, evanuris, and Avvar gods seem to be able to pop right back up so long as they’re famous enough, and he’s really famous. His personality could be different (the way Hakkon’s personality can be altered by rebirthing)... buuuut he’s famous as the Dread Wolf, so his personality isn’t likely to be different in a good way. More like a, wheeeee I’m causing an apocalypse and now all the collateral damage just makes me horny, what fun! kind of way. Imprisonment seems to be the only method that might kind of work, and then only until he finds some way to weasel out of his seals.
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Post by grallon on Jan 8, 2019 2:51:16 GMT
Wanting to stop him is a valid choice, but killing him seems extremely likely to produce the opposite result. Spirits, evanuris, and Avvar gods seem to be able to pop right back up so long as they’re famous enough, and he’s really famous. His personality could be different (the way Hakkon’s personality can be altered by rebirthing)... buuuut he’s famous as the Dread Wolf, so his personality isn’t likely to be different in a good way. More like a, wheeeee I’m causing an apocalypse and now all the collateral damage just makes me horny, what fun! kind of way. Imprisonment seems to be the only method that might kind of work, and then only until he finds some way to weasel out of his seals.
I don't think the continuing existence of certain entities has anything to do with popularity or number of worshipers. Solas is incarnate, not a spirit. So were/are the Evanuris. Mythal survived, after a fashion, because she was farsighted and foresaw the possibility of betrayal, and thus prepared accordingly (remember the amulet in DA2?) Hakkon was, to my understanding, a spirit who possessed a dragon. I believe we won't get to kill Solas because in the end he will sacrifice himself to stop his one time associates and save the current Thedas.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 3:02:00 GMT
Wanting to stop him is a valid choice, but killing him seems extremely likely to produce the opposite result. Spirits, evanuris, and Avvar gods seem to be able to pop right back up so long as they’re famous enough, and he’s really famous. His personality could be different (the way Hakkon’s personality can be altered by rebirthing)... buuuut he’s famous as the Dread Wolf, so his personality isn’t likely to be different in a good way. More like a, wheeeee I’m causing an apocalypse and now all the collateral damage just makes me horny, what fun! kind of way. Imprisonment seems to be the only method that might kind of work, and then only until he finds some way to weasel out of his seals. I don't think the continuing existence of certain entities has anything to do with popularity or number of worshipers. Solas is incarnate, not a spirit. So were/are the Evanuris. Mythal survived, after a fashion, because she was farsighted and foresaw the possibility of betrayal, and thus prepared accordingly (remember the amulet in DA2?) Hakkon was, to my understanding, a spirit who possessed a dragon. I believe we won't get to kill Solas because in the end he will sacrifice himself to stop his one time associates and save the current Thedas.
But he reason Solas has trapped the Evanuris instead of killing them is that - like Mythal - they don't die so easily. Whatever 'the first of his people' are, they are just close to unkillable. Also... we really have no evidence that Mythal has managed to prepare contingencies at the time - in fact, her having contingencies now maybe because of what happened to her before. Nevermind that IF she had contingencies before, they didn't seem to work when it mattered, hence Solas had to use his contingency (the Veil) to deal with Evanuris, now drunk on power and purportedly about to do something world-ending. And no, Hakkon is not just a spirit possessing a dragon. We don't really know what Hakkon IS, but he is apparently a spirit dragon as well.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 8, 2019 3:08:52 GMT
I don't think the continuing existence of certain entities has anything to do with popularity or number of worshipers. Solas is incarnate, not a spirit. So were/are the Evanuris. Mythal survived, after a fashion, because she was farsighted and foresaw the possibility of betrayal, and thus prepared accordingly (remember the amulet in DA2?) Hakkon was, to my understanding, a spirit who possessed a dragon. I believe we won't get to kill Solas because in the end he will sacrifice himself to stop his one time associates and save the current Thedas.
But he reason Solas has trapped the Evanuris instead of killing them is that - like Mythal - they don't die so easily. Whatever 'the first of his people' are, they are just close to unkillable. Also... we really have no evidence that Mythal has managed to prepare contingencies at the time - in fact, her having contingencies now maybe because of what happened to her before. Nevermind that IF she had contingencies before, they didn't seem to work when it mattered, hence Solas had to use his contingency (the Veil) to deal with Evanuris, now drunk on power and purportedly about to do something world-ending. And no, Hakkon is not just a spirit possessing a dragon. We don't really know what Hakkon IS, but he is apparently a spirit dragon as well. Oh, I do hope Hakkon is a shade. I love the idea that most shades are sliding blobs, and maybe at most humanoids, meanwhile Hakkon’s over here going “haha fuck all that, I’m manifesting as a draaaaaagon!” Sort of makes me wonder if there are any shades somewhere in between Cole and Hakkon. Like maybe there’s a semi-powerful spirit somewhere that takes the form of a building or something.
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Post by summonabear on Jan 8, 2019 3:23:51 GMT
I don't think we'll be making a choice as straightforward as kill or save Solas, but that one or the other will result from other choices we made (hopefully it won't be obvious). I think it's more satisfying from a gameplay perspective to have multiple outcomes. The choice Trespasser was probably just to inform how our Inquisitor acts as an NPC in the next game. That being said I want to kill him
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 3:34:44 GMT
Oh, I do hope Hakkon is a shade. I love the idea that most shades are sliding blobs, and maybe at most humanoids, meanwhile Hakkon’s over here going “haha fuck all that, I’m manifesting as a draaaaaagon!” Sort of makes me wonder if there are any shades somewhere in between Cole and Hakkon. Like maybe there’s a semi-powerful spirit somewhere that takes the form of a building or something. Well, according to the legend, the Tower of Bone in Emprise du Lion is possessed by a greater pride demon (hence the chains).
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 8, 2019 3:38:20 GMT
Well, according to the legend, the Tower of Bone in Emprise du Lion is possessed by a greater pride demon (hence the chains). That is true, but I find shades’ forms even funnier. Possession, especially of inanimate objects, tends to be accidental, but being a shade means they took that form (somewhat) on purpose, and required way more power to do it.
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grallon
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Post by grallon on Jan 8, 2019 3:51:56 GMT
But he reason Solas has trapped the Evanuris instead of killing them is that - like Mythal - they don't die so easily. Whatever 'the first of his people' are, they are just close to unkillable.
Was it? Or is it rather that he could not face the 7 alone and hope to survive so he chose to trick them instead?
I based my assumption on what we saw in the second game. She knew Morrigan would try to kill her and prepared accordingly. There's no reason to believe she was less careful before, especially, if we are to believe the ancient codex entries, that she opposed her brethren at every turn and constantly warned against their ever growing greed. Consider also how she foresaw how Solas would come for her after the Breach was closed. Incidentally, I remain convinced she planned the whole thing after she was 'revived' by joining Flemmeth and discovered what had transpired since her 'death'.
Was there ever such a thing as a spirit dragon in the Fade? It doesn't sound like an aspect of the livings' morality/intellect like pride of knowledge or desire... The closest thing I can think of are the great dragons imprisoned below ground, who turn into archdemons once tainted, and are somehow tied to the Evanuris (horcruxes?)
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Post by grallon on Jan 8, 2019 3:52:55 GMT
That is true, but I find shades’ forms even funnier. Possession, especially of inanimate objects, tends to be accidental, but being a shade means they took that form (somewhat) on purpose, and required way more power to do it.
You're so facetious!
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 4:46:08 GMT
But he reason Solas has trapped the Evanuris instead of killing them is that - like Mythal - they don't die so easily. Whatever 'the first of his people' are, they are just close to unkillabl Was it? Or is it rather that he could not face the 7 alone and hope to survive so he chose to trick them instead? Solas has stated the reason he did it, and he provided Mythal as an example of how hard the Evanuris are to kill. If you're going with a different explanation then keep in mind that - at this time - it's an assumption that ignores what has been stated by the guy who actually knows something about ancient elves and Evanuris, given that he is both, is himself thousands of years old and has personally known the others. I mean, nevermind that - considering that Solas was closely allied with Mythal and himself had contingencies that helped him stop the rest - he may as well have contingencies himself that would bring him from death. We never saw what happened to Mythal all those millennia ago - all we saw was only a vaguely analogous situation that we have reasons to assume was not the same as what happened before. The world was different. Mythal was different. She has faced different foes - and considering that the red lyrium statue looks suspiciously like dried-up Mythal, we don't even know what manner of death she previously faced; though given that she had 6 Evanuris working against her one can assume that they used powerful magic against her that probably nobody wields now, at least to an extent they did before. Compare her reaction after Morrigan/Warden managed to kill her: she's smug and chill after her death in DAO - while she is still incensed about her betrayal from thousands of years ago. Which doesn't mean that at the time she had as effective of contingencies or means to survive as she has now - something that I have already mentioned before. Again, if Solas didn't use his own contingency plan, then whatever fail-safe she's had before didn't work at the time to bring her back and stop the Evanuris herself. She crawled back to life thousands of years later and then it took her centuries to get where she was. Well yea, but planning the whole thing AFTER she was revived doesn't mean that she has foreseen and prepared everything before her first death. Why wouldn't there be? After revelations in Trespasser or Descent, it should be obvious that we can't rule out the existence of anything. What we saw or glimpsed in the world or Fade so far may just be a small fraction of what there actually is.
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