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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 8, 2019 6:30:52 GMT
There should be an option to kill him where he stays dead, so no spirit rebirth as how the world pictures the Dread Wolf or any nonsense like that. Bioware needs to be fair to all their fans.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 13:49:12 GMT
There should be an option to kill him where he stays dead, so no spirit rebirth as how the world pictures the Dread Wolf or any nonsense like that. Bioware needs to be fair to all their fans. But why would 'killing KILLING' him would be fair to fans? (nevermind being 'fair' to character, in a sense that this or that option makes sense within the story or universe). Besides - knowing Bioware, you may be careful what you wish for. What if it turns out that 'killing KILLING' route may be entirely not what you expect it to, and I'm not even talking about Solas coming back to life or whatever. I can already see a few scenarios.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 8, 2019 14:25:21 GMT
Kill the dude. I am going to make a goddamn, eggcellent hard-boiled egg with a nice, runny yolk. No one gets away with deceiving me and using me for their own ends, and then threaten to destroy the goddamn world! I helped you save your goddamn spirit friend, Solas... Dread wolf?! Hah! More like Dead Wolf
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Post by Little Bengel on Jan 8, 2019 15:16:51 GMT
There should be an option to kill him where he stays dead, so no spirit rebirth as how the world pictures the Dread Wolf or any nonsense like that. Bioware needs to be fair to all their fans. But why would 'killing KILLING' him would be fair to fans? (nevermind being 'fair' to character, in a sense that this or that option makes sense within the story or universe). Besides - knowing Bioware, you may be careful what you wish for. What if it turns out that 'killing KILLING' route may be entirely not what you expect it to, and I'm not even talking about Solas coming back to life or whatever. I can already see a few scenarios. I can already see people complaining about the writers clearly being partial to (and "railroading" us into) saving Solas...
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 15:33:26 GMT
But why would 'killing KILLING' him would be fair to fans? (nevermind being 'fair' to character, in a sense that this or that option makes sense within the story or universe). Besides - knowing Bioware, you may be careful what you wish for. What if it turns out that 'killing KILLING' route may be entirely not what you expect it to, and I'm not even talking about Solas coming back to life or whatever. I can already see a few scenarios. I can already see people complaining about the writers clearly being partial to (and "railroading" us into) saving Solas... We aren't really talking about this in the context of saving/punishing Solas and a fair balance between the choices, but why 'killing Solas for good' is viewed as the one fair punishment that some on the opposite side to redeemers would accept - and why assume that that solution would be the best one? I mean... it's Bioware we're talking about. They can be creative with these things, especially with Patrick Weekes at the helm. After all, how many times on Solas thread did we agonize over redeem option possibly being an ugly-crying material? Not even in a sense that Solas turns out to be an awful bastard some say he is - just that it may not turn out to be the best solution to the problem, for whatever reason? There's still so much we don't know and we have no idea which direction the story will take...
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 8, 2019 15:38:58 GMT
But why would 'killing KILLING' him would be fair to fans? (nevermind being 'fair' to character, in a sense that this or that option makes sense within the story or universe). Besides - knowing Bioware, you may be careful what you wish for. What if it turns out that 'killing KILLING' route may be entirely not what you expect it to, and I'm not even talking about Solas coming back to life or whatever. I can already see a few scenarios. I can already see people complaining about the writers clearly being partial to (and "railroading" us into) saving Solas... Eh, the fandom is big and someone will always be unhappy with something. I could also see people complaining about Dragon Age being another one of those power creep series where the stakes get higher and higher until finally the protagonist is swinging around killing gods left right and center. I wouldn’t mind that, but I also think it would be cool if, for once in fantasy, it turns out gods are actually unkillable (or genuinely difficult to kill permanently). I liked that feeling of cosmic horror in Trespasser, the feeling of helplessness in the face of something so nakedly powerful and with goals that have no regard for the PC’s wishes. I can see the argument that killing a god is escapist, but I feel that helplessness can be escapist too. In the real world there are so many tough problems that need to be addressed. There’s some fantasy to be had in being forced to give up, or settle for some grossly suboptimal solution.
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Post by Little Bengel on Jan 8, 2019 15:53:45 GMT
I can already see people complaining about the writers clearly being partial to (and "railroading" us into) saving Solas... Eh, the fandom is big and someone will always be unhappy with something. I could also see people complaining about Dragon Age being another one of those power creep series where the stakes get higher and higher until finally the protagonist is swinging around killing gods left right and center. I wouldn’t mind that, but I also think it would be cool if, for once in fantasy, it turns out gods are actually unkillable (or genuinely difficult to kill permanently). I liked that feeling of cosmic horror in Trespasser, the feeling of helplessness in the face of something so nakedly powerful and with goals that have no regard for the PC’s wishes. I can see the argument that killing a god is escapist, but I feel that helplessness can be escapist too. In the real world there are so many tough problems that need to be addressed. There’s some fantasy to be had in being forced to give up, or settle for some grossly suboptimal solution. Yeah, that is what I'm hoping for with Solas in DA4 as well. I only hope Weekes manages to convey that level of power with Solas, and that he remains a sympathetic and competent antagonist throughout the game (sympathetic enough to make players consider the possibility of saving him, and competent enough to not end up holding the Idiot Ball big time.)
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 8, 2019 17:08:45 GMT
Wanting to stop him is a valid choice, but killing him seems extremely likely to produce the opposite result. Whelp, time to start re-polishing my Tranquil brand after all.
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Jan 8, 2019 17:40:56 GMT
There should be an option to kill him where he stays dead, so no spirit rebirth as how the world pictures the Dread Wolf or any nonsense like that. Bioware needs to be fair to all their fans. But why would 'killing KILLING' him would be fair to fans? (nevermind being 'fair' to character, in a sense that this or that option makes sense within the story or universe). Besides - knowing Bioware, you may be careful what you wish for. What if it turns out that 'killing KILLING' route may be entirely not what you expect it to, and I'm not even talking about Solas coming back to life or whatever. I can already see a few scenarios. Because some of us think that killing him means he's dead. Like... dead dead. deader than dead. This Solas is no more. He has ceased to be. It is a dead Solas. Killing Solas should result in never having to see or hear from him ever again in any form whatsoever. None of this BS "oh look, he's spirit now or locked away someplace but may return" - NO!
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 8, 2019 17:43:42 GMT
I don’t think it’s going to be an option regardless of the choice presented at the end of Trespasser. Killing Solas will be necessary, and Inquisitors who try to save him will themselves by destroyed.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 18:07:31 GMT
But why would 'killing KILLING' him would be fair to fans? (nevermind being 'fair' to character, in a sense that this or that option makes sense within the story or universe). Besides - knowing Bioware, you may be careful what you wish for. What if it turns out that 'killing KILLING' route may be entirely not what you expect it to, and I'm not even talking about Solas coming back to life or whatever. I can already see a few scenarios. Because some of us think that killing him means he's dead. Like... dead dead. deader than dead. This Solas is no more. He has ceased to be. It is a dead Solas. Killing Solas should result in never having to see or hear from him ever again in any form whatsoever. None of this BS "oh look, he's spirit now or locked away someplace but may return" - NO!A point for you for referencing Monty Python... Anyway, Thedas is a world in which death ain't necessarily permanent, as it has been proven time and time again with characters less powerful, ancient or pivotal to the story as Solas, so a question remains whether one can be killed in that way (plus, Thedas is also a world in which memories are a palpable thing, so even killing killing may not result with never hearing from Solas ever again, as memories of him may be retained in the Fade or locked in a spell of some sort, etc.). Nevermind if it turns out that we may pay an equally awful price for such death, regardless what form such payment may bring. IMO there will be a price or emotional rollercoaster of some sort either way. Solas doesn't seem like a character which Bioware would just deal with by killing him for good or just talking him out of whatever he's planning. Not only it would feel quite anticlimactic, to me it would probably feel like sweeping a lot of problems under the rug.
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Jan 8, 2019 18:16:48 GMT
Because some of us think that killing him means he's dead. Like... dead dead. deader than dead. This Solas is no more. He has ceased to be. It is a dead Solas. Killing Solas should result in never having to see or hear from him ever again in any form whatsoever. None of this BS "oh look, he's spirit now or locked away someplace but may return" - NO!Thedas is a world in which death ain't necessarily permanent, as it has been proven time and time again with characters less powerful, ancient or pivotal to the story as Solas, so a question remains whether one can be killed in that way (plus, Thedas is also a world in which memories are a palpable thing, so even killing killing may not result with never hearing from Solas ever again, as memories of him may be retained in the Fade or locked in a spell of some sort, etc.). Nevermind if it turns out that we may pay an equally awful price for such death, regardless what form such payment may bring. IMO there will be a price or emotional rollercoaster of some sort either way. Solas doesn't seem like a character which Bioware would just deal with by killing him for good or just talking him out of whatever he's planning. Not only it would feel quite anticlimactic, to me it would probably feel like sweeping a lot of problems under the rug. I don't care about Thedas philosophical mumbo jumbo right now, tbh. As a lover of roleplay I am pretty damn sick and tired of the roleplay option [Kill X] meaning something different than deader than dead. Just let those who choose [Kill Solas] actually kill Solas and be done with him. Forever. ETA: the parrot has ceased to be.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 18:29:55 GMT
I don't care about Thedas philosophical mumbo jumbo right now, tbh. As a lover of roleplay I am pretty damn sick and tired of the roleplay option [Kill X] meaning something different than deader than dead. Just let those who choose [Kill Solas] actually kill Solas and be done with him. Forever. Since when roleplay means "I do exactly what I want, with no adherence to any rules or story" or "dead means dead"? You are entitled to not being happy with a choice or its consequences, and nobody said that, eventually, you're not going to get what you want, as nobody knows what direction the story will go yet. But given how that world is built... if you want 'dead means dead' I'm just not sure you're necessarily going to find it in DA, regardless if you care or not about philosophical (philosophical?... Folks can literally return from the dead) mumbo jumbo.
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Jan 8, 2019 18:42:07 GMT
I don't care about Thedas philosophical mumbo jumbo right now, tbh. As a lover of roleplay I am pretty damn sick and tired of the roleplay option [Kill X] meaning something different than deader than dead. Just let those who choose [Kill Solas] actually kill Solas and be done with him. Forever. Since when roleplay means "I do exactly what I want, with no adherence to any rules or story" or "dead means dead"? You are entitled to not being happy with a choice or its consequences, and nobody said that, eventually, you're not going to get what you want, as nobody knows what direction the story will go yet. But given how that world is built... if you want 'dead means dead' I'm just not sure you're necessarily going to find it in DA, regardless if you care or not about philosophical (philosophical?... Folks can literally return from the dead) mumbo jumbo. If I choose Kill X then I am adhering to rules and story. But if Kill X means that X is actually alive in some form then my story choice has been ignored and replaced with the story choice the writer's prefer. I don't choose to Kill X for giggles or because I really want them to live, or be a spirit or anything of the sort. If I choose the roleplay option Kill X then I should never have to hear or see them ever again.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 18:45:25 GMT
I can already see people complaining about the writers clearly being partial to (and "railroading" us into) saving Solas... Eh, the fandom is big and someone will always be unhappy with something. I could also see people complaining about Dragon Age being another one of those power creep series where the stakes get higher and higher until finally the protagonist is swinging around killing gods left right and center. I wouldn’t mind that, but I also think it would be cool if, for once in fantasy, it turns out gods are actually unkillable (or genuinely difficult to kill permanently). I liked that feeling of cosmic horror in Trespasser, the feeling of helplessness in the face of something so nakedly powerful and with goals that have no regard for the PC’s wishes. I can see the argument that killing a god is escapist, but I feel that helplessness can be escapist too. In the real world there are so many tough problems that need to be addressed. There’s some fantasy to be had in being forced to give up, or settle for some grossly suboptimal solution. I still remember talking with the guy who was super unhappy that we were 'forced' to make Inquisition an organization dedicated to pursuing Corypheus ... He insisted that we should have been able to make Skyhold into whatever we want, Cory and threat to the world be damned, with his idea for Inquisition being IRC a private company ran by dwarves dedicated to smuggling lyrium or whatever... But I digress - honestly, I don't know what they're preparing for Solas, given his importance to the story... but Bioware hasn't been faffing around when it comes to giving players asymmetric choices. Like the Iron Bull one. Not only the guy has just nonchalantly turned on us after we sacrifice Chargers, they effing rubbed salt into that wound
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 8, 2019 18:50:40 GMT
Since when roleplay means "I do exactly what I want, with no adherence to any rules or story" or "dead means dead"? You are entitled to not being happy with a choice or its consequences, and nobody said that, eventually, you're not going to get what you want, as nobody knows what direction the story will go yet. But given how that world is built... if you want 'dead means dead' I'm just not sure you're necessarily going to find it in DA, regardless if you care or not about philosophical (philosophical?... Folks can literally return from the dead) mumbo jumbo. If I choose Kill X then I am adhering to rules and story. But if Kill X means that X is actually alive in some form then my story choice has been ignored and replaced with the story choice the writer's prefer. I don't choose to Kill X for giggles or because I really want them to live, or be a spirit or anything of the sort. If I choose the roleplay option Kill X then I should never have to hear or see them ever again. Roleplay is about intent, not results. If a dwarf noble wants no part in elevating Bhelen, that’s a valid choice. But they can’t also specify that the dwarves will prosper under Harrowmont. I think killing Solas would probably have similar results. Solas (meaning his specific personality) would likely be dead, so it would accomplish the role of vengeance for PCs that wished to inflict it. And they likely wouldn’t have to hear from that version of Fen’Harel again. But that doesn’t mean they get to dodge the consequences of trying to kill something that is essentially an idea. Perhaps it’s redundant to spell this out after DA2, but sometimes... justice... has really counterproductive consequences.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 8, 2019 18:57:41 GMT
Since when roleplay means "I do exactly what I want, with no adherence to any rules or story" or "dead means dead"? You are entitled to not being happy with a choice or its consequences, and nobody said that, eventually, you're not going to get what you want, as nobody knows what direction the story will go yet. But given how that world is built... if you want 'dead means dead' I'm just not sure you're necessarily going to find it in DA, regardless if you care or not about philosophical (philosophical?... Folks can literally return from the dead) mumbo jumbo. If I choose Kill X then I am adhering to rules and story. But if Kill X means that X is actually alive in some form then my story choice has been ignored and replaced with the story choice the writer's prefer. I don't choose to Kill X for giggles or because I really want them to live, or be a spirit or anything of the sort. If I choose the roleplay option Kill X then I should never have to hear or see them ever again. You are only adhering in a sense that you're making a choice when you choose to Kill X - but those who write an RPG or campaign have a right to make with this choice whatever they want, so long as established rules allow it. And we already know that rules of Thedas permit for death to not end with permanent demise. We play DA not just to make choices and arbitrarily establish what they should mean - we play it to follow the story BW wants to tell, on which we have a measure of influence and not complete control. We certainly can have disagreements and objections about what those choices mean or what consequences they have. But just wanting for death to be death death... well, it's an opinion thing ATM. There really is nothing else to it. All we can do is just wait and see how all this ends, because the reality is that neither of us may get what we want.
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Post by dirtydiscolux on Jan 8, 2019 19:01:32 GMT
If I choose Kill X then I am adhering to rules and story. But if Kill X means that X is actually alive in some form then my story choice has been ignored and replaced with the story choice the writer's prefer. I don't choose to Kill X for giggles or because I really want them to live, or be a spirit or anything of the sort. If I choose the roleplay option Kill X then I should never have to hear or see them ever again. Roleplay is about intent, not results. If a dwarf noble wants no part in elevating Bhelen, that’s a valid choice. But they can’t also specify that the dwarves will prosper under Harrowmont. I think killing Solas would probably have similar results. Solas (meaning his specific personality) would likely be dead, so it would accomplish the role of vengeance for PCs that wished to inflict it. And they likely wouldn’t have to hear from that version of Fen’Harel again. But that doesn’t mean they get to dodge the consequences of trying to kill something that is essentially an idea. Perhaps it’s redundant to spell this out after DA2, but sometimes... justice... has really counterproductive consequences. Right. I choose Kill X because I intend for them to be dead. The writer's intend something different most times and that's fine. At the end of the day it's their story to tell and I can just get over it or stop playing, but don't even bother giving me the choice Kill X if they aren't really dead because I've stopped taking the choice seriously. I take it with wild abandon most of the time because who cares? Nine times out of ten they're never really dead. Anders is deader than dead though, thank the Maker.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 8, 2019 19:02:15 GMT
I'm killing Solas, he's a very big threat to the world and he doesn't seem willing to back down.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 8, 2019 22:13:37 GMT
Roleplay is about intent, not results. If a dwarf noble wants no part in elevating Bhelen, that’s a valid choice. But they can’t also specify that the dwarves will prosper under Harrowmont. I think killing Solas would probably have similar results. Solas (meaning his specific personality) would likely be dead, so it would accomplish the role of vengeance for PCs that wished to inflict it. And they likely wouldn’t have to hear from that version of Fen’Harel again. But that doesn’t mean they get to dodge the consequences of trying to kill something that is essentially an idea. Perhaps it’s redundant to spell this out after DA2, but sometimes... justice... has really counterproductive consequences. Right. I choose Kill X because I intend for them to be dead. The writer's intend something different most times and that's fine. At the end of the day it's their story to tell and I can just get over it or stop playing, but don't even bother giving me the choice Kill X if they aren't really dead because I've stopped taking the choice seriously. I take it with wild abandon most of the time because who cares? Nine times out of ten they're never really dead. Anders is deader than dead though, thank the Maker. On the plus side, if the the death=rebirthing theory is true, there would be a huge difference between killing vs. not killing him. So the choice would have meaning for sure. In Inquisition, both Solas and Svarah Sun-Hair say that reborn spirits come back different. Killing Hakkon was a valid way of stopping him, for example, because he’d be likely to come back as a calmer version of Hakkon. Especially since the Inquisitor took out all the Hakkonites that worshipped the current incarnation. The problem I anticipate with Solas is that everyone has a particularly villainous view of the Dread Wolf. So he’d be reborn differently, yes... but he’d be different in a very unpleasant, potentially world-ending direction. Fen’Harel is certainly dangerous now, but the legendary Fen’Harel is a monstrous trickster who revels in mayhem. It’s valid to question whether Solas being upset about causing suffering really accomplishes anything if he’s still gonna do it... but it’s got to be better than facing someone who’s happy to cause suffering and sees no reason to even half-heartedly avoid it.
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Post by grallon on Jan 9, 2019 2:42:07 GMT
On the plus side, if the the death=rebirthing theory is true, there would be a huge difference between killing vs. not killing him. So the choice would have meaning for sure. In Inquisition, both Solas and Svarah Sun-Hair say that reborn spirits come back different. Killing Hakkon was a valid way of stopping him, for example, because he’d be likely to come back as a calmer version of Hakkon. Especially since the Inquisitor took out all the Hakkonites that worshipped the current incarnation. The problem I anticipate with Solas is that everyone has a particularly villainous view of the Dread Wolf. So he’d be reborn differently, yes... but he’d be different in a very unpleasant, potentially world-ending direction. Fen’Harel is certainly dangerous now, but the legendary Fen’Harel is a monstrous trickster who revels in mayhem. ...
Your analysis is based on the assumption that Solas is a spirit - which he clearly isn't. He's a powerful mage and a dream or fade walker - but he has a body - and has had it since the days of Arlathan. He was merely in uthenera for thousands of years, in some undisclosed location. The whole Fen'Harel thing was a propaganda trick. He said so himself: the Evanuris liked to pose and pass for gods, he called them 'would-be gods'. And that includes him since he was associated with them, perhaps as a pupil of Mythal, or even a lover.
In any case, and to be perfectly honest, I never liked the concept of the elves being spirits that took shape of their own accord, Cole-like.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 9, 2019 3:01:49 GMT
On the plus side, if the the death=rebirthing theory is true, there would be a huge difference between killing vs. not killing him. So the choice would have meaning for sure. In Inquisition, both Solas and Svarah Sun-Hair say that reborn spirits come back different. Killing Hakkon was a valid way of stopping him, for example, because he’d be likely to come back as a calmer version of Hakkon. Especially since the Inquisitor took out all the Hakkonites that worshipped the current incarnation. The problem I anticipate with Solas is that everyone has a particularly villainous view of the Dread Wolf. So he’d be reborn differently, yes... but he’d be different in a very unpleasant, potentially world-ending direction. Fen’Harel is certainly dangerous now, but the legendary Fen’Harel is a monstrous trickster who revels in mayhem. ...
Your analysis is based on the assumption that Solas is a spirit - which he clearly isn't. He's a powerful mage and a dream or fade walker - but he has a body - and has had it since the days of Arlathan. He was merely in uthenera for thousands of years, in some undisclosed location. The whole Fen'Harel thing was a propaganda trick. He said so himself: the Evanuris liked to pose and pass for gods, he called them 'would-be gods'. And that includes him since he was associated with them, perhaps as a pupil of Mythal, or even a lover.
In any case, and to be perfectly honest, I never liked the concept of the elves being spirits that took shape of their own accord, Cole-like.
I’m not suggesting they’re spirits exactly, but they’re certainly spirit adjacent. Given what Solas says when Cole becomes human (and the unspoken “again” that Cole faintly hears), all that stuff about the Forbidden Ones abandoning form, and the stuff Cole says about making bodies from the earth, there’s something wibbly going on with elf bodies. Spirits currently seem like the closest analogue.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jan 9, 2019 12:51:58 GMT
I'm killing Solas, he's a very big threat to the world and he doesn't seem willing to back down. Especially when you have high approval with him, he still thinks the world needs to end. Or his world returning
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 9, 2019 13:35:15 GMT
I'm killing Solas, he's a very big threat to the world and he doesn't seem willing to back down. Especially when you have high approval with him, he still thinks the world needs to end. Or his world returning Which makes me wonder what really is at stake here...
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 9, 2019 14:22:44 GMT
Especially when you have high approval with him, he still thinks the world needs to end. Or his world returning Which makes me wonder what really is at stake here... Nah, I’m sure the world will be absolutely fine if the Wardens deal with the last two archdemons the same way as always. Then the Calling will be gone, and there will be no more reason for darkspawn to venture into the Deep Roads! They can stay on the surface forever and throw a big fun party with the non-Blighted people! This place is a message and part of a system of messages. Pay attention to it! Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture.This place is not a place of honor. No highly esteemed deed is commemorated here. Nothing valued is here.What is here is dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger.The danger is in a particular location. It increases toward a center. The center of danger is here, of a particular size and shape, and below us.The danger is still present, in your time, as it was in ours.The danger is to the body, and it can kill.The form of the danger is an emanation of energy.The danger is unleashed only if you substantially disturb this place physically. This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
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