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Post by gervaise21 on May 27, 2019 8:27:00 GMT
I've watched the whole of the first and the beginning of the second but gave up once it got to the resolution for Jamie and Cersi. Didn't get so far as his re-writing of Jon Snow but I assume that he alters that a fair bit as well. His narrative changes practically everything. Okay, so major characters who died in the TV version still die in his version but to me it makes it more of a black and white, good versus evil scenario, that George Martin seemed to be trying to avoid. I'm fairly confident that the outline he gave to the show writers wasn't simply X and Y die, Z lives but also degree of why and how. What upset most people about the Dany arc is not that she attacked the city with fire but that she did so after hearing the bells of surrender. His alternative ending does nothing to address this issue because in his version it never happens.
His resolution for Dany does not make sense. I was completely on board how the conquest of the city might take longer than in the show. Innocent people simply get caught up in the cross-fire and the general tendency of soldiers to do terrible things when their blood is up. I'm also on board with the idea of many citizens fleeing for the Red Keep and Cersi letting them in to provide a human shield.
What I totally disagree with is that Dany would let things get so bad for her troops before taking action and then faced with the choice of burning the Red Keep and anyone inside or losing the battle she has been preparing for her whole life, she would back off and accept defeat.
Neither the show Dany or the book Dany would do this. In the show she mentions how the slaves of Meereen rose against their masters in response to her conquest whereas the people of King's Landing did not, so effectively became her enemies. Perhaps the writers made things difficult for themselves in making it seem that only the bad leaders died in Meereen and the city was chiefly split between them and the slaves.
In the book the reason any slaves were able to rise up was because a small task force managed to infiltrate the city and free the fighting slaves in the gladiator pits, whilst her forces successfully broke down the gates, allowing her army to enter the city. However, between aristocracy and slaves there must have been a middle tier of society and when Meereen was "sacked savagely, as new-fallen cities always were" these people would have suffered in the fighting and probably not fought for either side. Dany acknowledges that cities are sacked when conquered because you can't control everything. It is only once she has control that she insists on establishing some sort of order and justice against the murderers and rapists. It is also mentioned in the text that when deciding how to take the city beforehand, if her dragons had been big enough to ride, she would have used them.
So if the narrative was following his ideas, many citizens would have suffered simply in the progress of her army, which would have been necessary to take the entire city. However, if her victory depended on actually taking the Red Keep with dragon fire, she would have done so. It goes against her entire character arc both in the show and in the books that she would back off. It has nothing to do with not wanting to be like her father. It everything to do with her belief that not only is she the rightful ruler of Westros but also it is her destiny to recover the throne stolen from her family. It doesn't matter whether the Usurper is Robert or Cersi, they are the traitors that she has always wanted to destroy with fire and blood. And she would consider that those sheltering within the Keep were regrettable collateral damage.
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Post by Heimdall on May 27, 2019 10:28:04 GMT
I've watched the whole of the first and the beginning of the second but gave up once it got to the resolution for Jamie and Cersi. Didn't get so far as his re-writing of Jon Snow but I assume that he alters that a fair bit as well. His narrative changes practically everything. Okay, so major characters who died in the TV version still die in his version but to me it makes it more of a black and white, good versus evil scenario, that George Martin seemed to be trying to avoid. I'm fairly confident that the outline he gave to the show writers wasn't simply X and Y die, Z lives but also degree of why and how. What upset most people about the Dany arc is not that she attacked the city with fire but that she did so after hearing the bells of surrender. His alternative ending does nothing to address this issue because in his version it never happens.
His resolution for Dany does not make sense. I was completely on board how the conquest of the city might take longer than in the show. Innocent people simply get caught up in the cross-fire and the general tendency of soldiers to do terrible things when their blood is up. I'm also on board with the idea of many citizens fleeing for the Red Keep and Cersi letting them in to provide a human shield.
What I totally disagree with is that Dany would let things get so bad for her troops before taking action and then faced with the choice of burning the Red Keep and anyone inside or losing the battle she has been preparing for her whole life, she would back off and accept defeat.
Neither the show Dany or the book Dany would do this. In the show she mentions how the slaves of Meereen rose against their masters in response to her conquest whereas the people of King's Landing did not, so effectively became her enemies. Perhaps the writers made things difficult for themselves in making it seem that only the bad leaders died in Meereen and the city was chiefly split between them and the slaves.
In the book the reason any slaves were able to rise up was because a small task force managed to infiltrate the city and free the fighting slaves in the gladiator pits, whilst her forces successfully broke down the gates, allowing her army to enter the city. However, between aristocracy and slaves there must have been a middle tier of society and when Meereen was "sacked savagely, as new-fallen cities always were" these people would have suffered in the fighting and probably not fought for either side. Dany acknowledges that cities are sacked when conquered because you can't control everything. It is only once she has control that she insists on establishing some sort of order and justice against the murderers and rapists. It is also mentioned in the text that when deciding how to take the city beforehand, if her dragons had been big enough to ride, she would have used them.
So if the narrative was following his ideas, many citizens would have suffered simply in the progress of her army, which would have been necessary to take the entire city. However, if her victory depended on actually taking the Red Keep with dragon fire, she would have done so. It goes against her entire character arc both in the show and in the books that she would back off. It has nothing to do with not wanting to be like her father. It everything to do with her belief that not only is she the rightful ruler of Westros but also it is her destiny to recover the throne stolen from her family. It doesn't matter whether the Usurper is Robert or Cersi, they are the traitors that she has always wanted to destroy with fire and blood. And she would consider that those sheltering within the Keep were regrettable collateral damage. He changes things that he felt weren’t sufficiently set up, Dany’s actions being most prominent among them and I agree. Her burning King’s Landing after surrendering makes no sense and can’t be justified without a stronger buildup to this character turn in the preceding season, but he’s limiting himself to two episodes. If she had burned everything before surrendering it would perhaps fit better into the character arc you describe. To be frank, the books don’t matter here. What matters is what the show has set up and the show has skated over the brutality of conquest, no mention of anyone but the masters suffering from the slave uprising in the Meereen. I’m not sure I understand though, you say that Dany would never have let the battle turn so badly before accepting defeat but also emphasize that it is entirely against her character arc to back off?
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Post by gervaise21 on May 27, 2019 14:39:22 GMT
No, what I meant was that she would never have let the battle turn so badly for her troops before intervening and turning the tide back in her favour. When she engaged with Lannister forces previously, she incinerated their lines in advance of her Dothraki cavalry charge. In his version of the narrative, this would also then have accounted for why she was burning along city streets rather than heading directly for the Red Keep.
I must admit the thing that is most annoying about the various battle sequences is that both armies seem to have acquired re-spawning soldiers along the lines of DA2. Now at least with Cersi they seemed to be showing that she was forced to make good the deficit from her army's previous encounter with Dany by employing the Golden Company. For some reason Dany's Dorthraki and Unsullied still had rank upon rank after the battle of King's Landing when by rights they ought to have been reduced considerably by the fight with the Knight King and then by their ships being sunk by Euron. (If the majority of the forces were marching down by land, why wasn't Grey Worm with them? He was the commander of the Unsullied.)
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Post by alanc9 on May 27, 2019 16:49:45 GMT
My take on Tyrion's line was that he's saying that the Seven Six Kingdoms are always going to need some sort of gulag for people who are too inconvenient to keep around. Better than just beheading them, I guess. Yara and Grey Worm not knowing about how it works is a feature, not a bug. Looks like people are going to be readjudicating the ending for a long time: Daenerys was right: King’s Landing had to burn
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Post by alanc9 on May 27, 2019 16:53:28 GMT
I must admit the thing that is most annoying about the various battle sequences is that both armies seem to have acquired re-spawning soldiers along the lines of DA2. Now at least with Cersi they seemed to be showing that she was forced to make good the deficit from her army's previous encounter with Dany by employing the Golden Company. For some reason Dany's Dorthraki and Unsullied still had rank upon rank after the battle of King's Landing when by rights they ought to have been reduced considerably by the fight with the Knight King and then by their ships being sunk by Euron. (If the majority of the forces were marching down by land, why wasn't Grey Worm with them? He was the commander of the Unsullied.) Who says those numbers weren't reduced? I don't see more soldiers in those shots than Dany actually had, though I haven't tried to do a precise count.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 27, 2019 18:28:18 GMT
I must admit the thing that is most annoying about the various battle sequences for me the most annoying thing in the GoT battles is their turn-based strategies vibe. Battle of Bastards: a bunch of guys with tower shields and pikes are running towards you, you're just standing there and staring at them, waiting for them to surround you (because it's not your turn to move). Battle of Winterfell: you move your cavalry up front and order them to attack but you dont order the same to your infantry and archers (because you've run out of your points of movement). then again, the undead are just standing next to the flaming trenches but your archers can't shoot at them because it's not your turn. You can shoot at them only after they make their move which is going straight into the fires and storming the walls. Euron attacks the dragons: if he can see the dragons then the dragons can see him too. But since it's his turn to attack, he can shoot at them but they cant shoot back.
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Post by Lavochkin on May 27, 2019 19:19:18 GMT
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Post by House Targaryen on May 27, 2019 20:06:56 GMT
Dragon logic.
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Post by Voluptuous Volus on May 27, 2019 22:11:03 GMT
Dragon logic.
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Post by Sifr on May 28, 2019 2:25:25 GMT
Jon didn't break his oath. He swore to serve the Night's Watch til the day he died. He died. His watch was over. Granted it's a loophole and one no one could have anticipated, but there ya go. the idea that Jon'd use this kind of excuse and the northmen would accept it is completely OOC. But he did? In the show he justified his decision to leave by pointing out that he swore to serve until his death and he had.
It is odd that none of the Northern Lords ever brought his "desertion" up, but I suppose that they might have been willing to overlook it in light of him leading the army that took down the Boltons? Since no-one knew that Bran was still alive at that point, Jon was the oldest male "Stark" left that could claim Winterfell, even despite his illegitimacy.
Even so, would have been a cool scene to have some of the Northern Lords bring up his "desertion" of the Night's Watch and have Jon reluctantly forced to show the knife wounds on his chest to prove his case, stunning them into silence. That could even have played into Sansa usurping the support of the Northern Lords from Jon in S7, by showing that some of the more superstitious among them have begun to wonder if he's even Jon at all.
And if they had similar reservations about Bran, (especially in light of his comments that he's "not Bran, not really") that would further justify them wanting to secede in S8, rather than wanting to be ruled by a creepy, psychic-tree-wizard that might not even be fully human anymore.
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Post by melbella on May 28, 2019 2:44:40 GMT
Am I the only one enjoying the irony of Jon ending up the same place Jaime started out? Jaime at least was officially pardoned for saving the city from a fiery death. I guess Jon killed Dany too late for that, eh, so he was banished instead.
I find the comparisons to the shittiness of ME3's ending quite hilarious. In no way did the GoT finale generate anywhere near the letdown all-this-was-for-nothing feeling I got after finishing ME3 the first time (pre-EC). It wasn't a WTF ending like BSG. It wasn't a cliffhanger. It didn't make me exclaim, "Wait, that's the end?!" like Angel. And it didn't make me bawl uncontrollably like Babylon 5.
It was an end. Not spectacularly awesome (are there any that are?) but it was solid. Everyone's story wrapped up. It's hard to ask for much more than that.
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Post by Heimdall on May 28, 2019 7:37:23 GMT
No, what I meant was that she would never have let the battle turn so badly for her troops before intervening and turning the tide back in her favour. When she engaged with Lannister forces previously, she incinerated their lines in advance of her Dothraki cavalry charge. In his version of the narrative, this would also then have accounted for why she was burning along city streets rather than heading directly for the Red Keep. I must admit the thing that is most annoying about the various battle sequences is that both armies seem to have acquired re-spawning soldiers along the lines of DA2. Now at least with Cersi they seemed to be showing that she was forced to make good the deficit from her army's previous encounter with Dany by employing the Golden Company. For some reason Dany's Dorthraki and Unsullied still had rank upon rank after the battle of King's Landing when by rights they ought to have been reduced considerably by the fight with the Knight King and then by their ships being sunk by Euron. (If the majority of the forces were marching down by land, why wasn't Grey Worm with them? He was the commander of the Unsullied.) Oh, well I was under the impression that his rewrite had the planted wildfire doing most of the work in breaking Dany’s army, so dragon interference would not have helped. General lack of tactical sense has been my biggest complaint with regards to the battles myself, though the apparent respawning armies is a huge problem. Everything about the battles this season looked cool but felt sloppy.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 28, 2019 8:04:31 GMT
Oh, well I was under the impression that his rewrite had the planted wildfire doing most of the work in breaking Dany’s army, so dragon interference would not have helped. Yes, that seemed to be what happened to me too. It actually makes more sense for that the be the case than it being old caches of Aegon's wildfire from years before (as others have assumed). However, if the strategy was for Cersi's soldiers to pull back and then ignite the fire so Dany's forces were caught in it or cut off from retreat, then the obvious counter would be to attack the Lannister forces with dragon fire, particularly if they were largely clustered in one place as has been suggested. If they were sufficiently numerous to overwhelm Dany the moment Drogon went down, then there were enough in the area to be effectively taken out in one sweep. In fact why didn't Drogon roast them from the ground (as he was going to do to Jamie in the previous season)? With all that wildfire going off there would have been a lot of innocent casualties anyway. There is no way that the entire population of King's Landing could have been brought into the Red Keep. So that could then explain why Dany felt such rage at Cersi that she was no longer worried about the collateral damage of attacking the Red Keep.
To suggest that Dany preferred to die than achieve her life's ambition and remove such a heartless tyrant from the throne at the same time just doesn't fit with her character. The emphasis on her thinking seemed to be she didn't want to become her father and that was all that mattered to her but that seemed to be ignoring the fact that she wanted to destroy the old corrupt system and had previously declared she was willing to burn down cities to do it.
That is why I feel his story ignores her character development even in the show and her declared motivations. Accepting defeat as a noble martyr did not fit with this.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 28, 2019 8:54:21 GMT
I beg to differ. *points finger straight at the fans*
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Post by Voluptuous Volus on May 28, 2019 13:06:06 GMT
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on May 28, 2019 13:18:58 GMT
I beg to differ. *points finger straight at the fans* *points finger straight at loaded shotgun*
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Post by Noxluxe on May 28, 2019 13:46:21 GMT
I beg to differ. *points finger straight at the fans* *points finger straight at loaded shotgun* *lowers finger in a hurry*
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 28, 2019 14:25:27 GMT
I find the comparisons to the shittiness of ME3's ending quite hilarious. In no way did the GoT finale generate anywhere near the letdown all-this-was-for-nothing feeling I got after finishing ME3 the first time (pre-EC). It wasn't a WTF ending like BSG. It wasn't a cliffhanger. It didn't make me exclaim, "Wait, that's the end?!" like Angel. And it didn't make me bawl uncontrollably like Babylon 5. Can somebody explain to me what was so bad about BSG? I've heard this statement several times in the wake of the GoT drama now and I am totally baffled. Are we talking the 2004 remake? I watched it only a year or two ago for the first time and thought it was fine. I cried at the end. I thought it was fitting even if quite open ended...
I didn't really have that all for nothing feeling after ME3. I had a "wow, they copied the cheap ass Deus Ex endings..." feeling of disappointment. My gripes were more with the execution than the narrative. Saving the geth was for nothing but the rest was mostly fine. The color coded endings were utter garbage and the space magic behind them most of all. But ME3 didn't completely rape the characters. Not at all actually. So as long as that doesn't happen (again) I'm usually forgiving.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 28, 2019 15:56:08 GMT
It was an end. Not spectacularly awesome (are there any that are?) mmm...there might be some
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on May 28, 2019 16:28:00 GMT
I find the comparisons to the shittiness of ME3's ending quite hilarious. In no way did the GoT finale generate anywhere near the letdown all-this-was-for-nothing feeling I got after finishing ME3 the first time (pre-EC). It wasn't a WTF ending like BSG. It wasn't a cliffhanger. It didn't make me exclaim, "Wait, that's the end?!" like Angel. And it didn't make me bawl uncontrollably like Babylon 5. Can somebody explain to me what was so bad about BSG? I've heard this statement several times in the wake of the GoT drama now and I am totally baffled. Are we talking the 2004 remake? I watched it only a year or two ago for the first time and thought it was fine. I cried at the end. I thought it was fitting even if quite open ended...
I didn't really have that all for nothing feeling after ME3. I had a "wow, they copied the cheap ass Deus Ex endings..." feeling of disappointment. My gripes were more with the execution than the narrative. Saving the geth was for nothing but the rest was mostly fine. The color coded endings were utter garbage and the space magic behind them most of all. But ME3 didn't completely rape the characters. Not at all actually. So as long as that doesn't happen (again) I'm usually forgiving.
If they're speaking about Battlestar Galactica. After all they have endured and finally find a planet to call home, our Earth, they're going to burn their ships, forsake technology, civilization and split up into groups and live with the native savages? Right. Everyone is going to go with that. It would have made more sense if they appeared at the time and created early Greek civilization.
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Post by alanc9 on May 28, 2019 16:32:38 GMT
I find the comparisons to the shittiness of ME3's ending quite hilarious. In no way did the GoT finale generate anywhere near the letdown all-this-was-for-nothing feeling I got after finishing ME3 the first time (pre-EC). It wasn't a WTF ending like BSG. It wasn't a cliffhanger. It didn't make me exclaim, "Wait, that's the end?!" like Angel. And it didn't make me bawl uncontrollably like Babylon 5.
Speaking of which: What It’s Like to Write a Finale Your Fans Hate
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Post by alanc9 on May 28, 2019 16:36:34 GMT
Can somebody explain to me what was so bad about BSG? I've heard this statement several times in the wake of the GoT drama now and I am totally baffled. Are we talking the 2004 remake? I watched it only a year or two ago for the first time and thought it was fine. I cried at the end. I thought it was fitting even if quite open ended...
I didn't really have that all for nothing feeling after ME3. I had a "wow, they copied the cheap ass Deus Ex endings..." feeling of disappointment. My gripes were more with the execution than the narrative. Saving the geth was for nothing but the rest was mostly fine. The color coded endings were utter garbage and the space magic behind them most of all. But ME3 didn't completely rape the characters. Not at all actually. So as long as that doesn't happen (again) I'm usually forgiving.
If they're speaking about Battlestar Galactica. After all they have endured and finally find a planet to call home, our Earth, they're going to burn their ships, forsake technology, civilization and split up into groups and live with the native savages? Right. Everyone is going to go with that. It would have made more sense if they appeared at the time and created early Greek civilization.
In fairness, they didn't have enough of a population to maintain a technological civilization anyway, Not being able to realize economies of scale would have doomed them. This is not a defense of the decision. Just saying that they didn't actually have that choice. But early Greek, etc.? Yeah, they could have done bronze age. Which would have been wholly consistent with the original show. My best guess is that they needed to keep the colonists in one place to keep Hera as a common ancestor of the future human race, and they didn't want to pick just one human culture to be descended from the Colonials. A lot of the other stuff the finale got grief for was unfair. People were resisting all the divine intervention aspects, but that was already baked in. Baltar's right about that much , at least. HeadSix really was exactly what she said she was.
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 28, 2019 19:38:57 GMT
If they're speaking about Battlestar Galactica. After all they have endured and finally find a planet to call home, our Earth, they're going to burn their ships, forsake technology, civilization and split up into groups and live with the native savages? Right. Everyone is going to go with that. It would have made more sense if they appeared at the time and created early Greek civilization. I didn't find it that outlandish that after all they endured they want a fresh start. Sure it was a bit cheesy. But that show embraced god as a reality. Starbuck got a fitting bittersweet send-off. And Roslin's death was beautifully scripted. The Roslin/Adama ship was my favorite on the show. Naming BSG together with Dexter as one of the worst endings is utterly ridiculous to me. BSG was fine. Not perfect but satisfactory.
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Post by Iakus on May 28, 2019 20:12:11 GMT
If they're speaking about Battlestar Galactica. After all they have endured and finally find a planet to call home, our Earth, they're going to burn their ships, forsake technology, civilization and split up into groups and live with the native savages? Right. Everyone is going to go with that. It would have made more sense if they appeared at the time and created early Greek civilization. I didn't find it that outlandish that after all they endured they want a fresh start. Sure it was a bit cheesy. But that show embraced god as a reality. Starbuck got a fitting bittersweet send-off. And Roslin's death was beautifully scripted. The Roslin/Adama ship was my favorite on the show. Naming BSG together with Dexter as one of the worst endings is utterly ridiculous to me. BSG was fine. Not perfect but satisfactory. Me, I'd want my fresh start to include antibiotics, clean water, this newfangled thing called "fire"...
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Post by House Targaryen on May 28, 2019 22:14:52 GMT
The BSG ending, don't hate it and don't like it. Its the turning your back on technology/civilization that bothers me. Its not realistic for everyone to go with that. Be lucky if 1/4 of the population went with that. I would have preferred the series to end on nuked Earth than what we got. Now that would be a Martin thing. I don't watch a lot of television but after watching BSG I thought there would never be a series that could match its greatness. The along come GoT. It gave us 7 great seasons and ended happily with Jon and Dany on the ship
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