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thats1evildude
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thats1evildude
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 30, 2017 7:27:38 GMT
This is not really messy. At least never comfused me. I suppose Hawke's blood only a code to break the seal. S/he only cuts his/her vein, and lets the blood to drops to the right place. Malcolm was, who performed the ritual with his own blood. It's still using the power of blood for magical purposes. I don't really see the difference. The difference is that Hawke isn't casting a spell. Their blood is just the key that opens the final lock on Corypheus' prison. Anyone of Malcolm's bloodline could have opened that lock.
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August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jul 30, 2017 8:13:07 GMT
This is not really messy. At least never comfused me. I suppose Hawke's blood only a code to break the seal. S/he only cuts his/her vein, and lets the blood to drops to the right place. Malcolm was, who performed the ritual with his own blood. It's still using the power of blood for magical purposes. I don't really see the difference. You said: "even if they weren't mage".
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26,699
gervaise21
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 30, 2017 12:06:59 GMT
Blood mages were disappointing all round in DAI. They had Erimond using it to control Grey Wardens and Grey Wardens using it to summon and control demons but I never really felt the same sense of jeopardy I got in DAO and DA2 in confronting a blood mage. The writers have also played down the "evil" of using blood magic, even having characters like Solas defend it.
I remember how in DA2 there was a real sense of urgency in needing to take down the blood mage as quickly as possible before they fired off their spells because they could literally have myself or my companions doubled up in pain and unable to move. Even so, we had still yet to encounter a powerful blood mage that actually takes control of our own party members, which would also be a truly terrifying prospect as you might then be forced to kill them in order to survive - as was the case in Baldur's Gate 2 and the vampires, except in the DA universe there is no resurrection spell, only a way of reviving them when they have fallen unconscious, not dead. However, that could lead into a plot of persuading a faith spirit to come to your assistance and resurrect them.
I get that compared with how blood magic spells are described in the on-line guide and how much in awe and terror of blood mages the majority of Thedas would seem to be, regardless of the religious affiliation, the reality as portrayed in the games has really fallen short both in execution of it as a class and in the reaction of your companions if you were to specialise as one. Clearly it would have been too complicated for the Inquisitor to be a blood mage and yet the rest of your inner circle be cool with having you in charge. I hardly think your advisors would have voluntarily recruited a blood mage specialist to teach you.
Still, if they don't at least have your enemies among the Tevinter mages portrayed as fully powered up blood mages, using the full range of the repertoire of their specialist spells, it will be very disappointing. Given that the majority of the Venatori were meant to have originated in Tevinter, I found them rather underwhelming in the degree of threat they presented. Spell binders with their floating books were just lame. I think some of them were labelled as blood mages but they really didn't come across as such in the extent of what they could do with their spells.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 29, 2017 2:56:37 GMT
Blood mages were disappointing all round in DAI. They had Erimond using it to control Grey Wardens and Grey Wardens using it to summon and control demons but I never really felt the same sense of jeopardy I got in DAO and DA2 in confronting a blood mage. The writers have also played down the "evil" of using blood magic, even having characters like Solas defend it.
I remember how in DA2 there was a real sense of urgency in needing to take down the blood mage as quickly as possible before they fired off their spells because they could literally have myself or my companions doubled up in pain and unable to move. Even so, we had still yet to encounter a powerful blood mage that actually takes control of our own party members, which would also be a truly terrifying prospect as you might then be forced to kill them in order to survive - as was the case in Baldur's Gate 2 and the vampires, except in the DA universe there is no resurrection spell, only a way of reviving them when they have fallen unconscious, not dead. However, that could lead into a plot of persuading a faith spirit to come to your assistance and resurrect them.
I get that compared with how blood magic spells are described in the on-line guide and how much in awe and terror of blood mages the majority of Thedas would seem to be, regardless of the religious affiliation, the reality as portrayed in the games has really fallen short both in execution of it as a class and in the reaction of your companions if you were to specialise as one. Clearly it would have been too complicated for the Inquisitor to be a blood mage and yet the rest of your inner circle be cool with having you in charge. I hardly think your advisors would have voluntarily recruited a blood mage specialist to teach you.
Still, if they don't at least have your enemies among the Tevinter mages portrayed as fully powered up blood mages, using the full range of the repertoire of their specialist spells, it will be very disappointing. Given that the majority of the Venatori were meant to have originated in Tevinter, I found them rather underwhelming in the degree of threat they presented. Spell binders with their floating books were just lame. I think some of them were labelled as blood mages but they really didn't come across as such in the extent of what they could do with their spells. It would made more sense if a mage can become a blood mage if he/she turned to vampire.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 29, 2017 5:08:01 GMT
I can't interpret the "would be detrimental to other content" part of the citation. Where can I found that content what prevented them? Somewhere in the empty deserts? It would have required a LOT of hand-waving to justify allowing the Inquisitor being a blood mage. Cullen, Vivienne, Cassandra and Sera just wouldn’t follow a blood mage, as would many Chantry faithful. And if you’re putting that much work into justifying one specialization, then you’re going to have to rob from the others.
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Post by river82 on Oct 29, 2017 5:17:35 GMT
I can't interpret the "would be detrimental to other content" part of the citation. Where can I found that content what prevented them? Somewhere in the empty deserts? It would have required a LOT of hand-waving to justify allowing the Inquisitor being a blood mage. Cullen, Vivienne, Cassandra and Sera just wouldn’t follow a blood mage, as would many Chantry faithful. And if you’re putting that much work into justifying one specialization, then you’re going to have to rob from the others. The increased reactions from the world surrounding you is part of what makes the idea of playing a blood mage intriguing. It's awesome to see that kind of reaction to your character from the game world. Furthermore it's also a forbidden class and so naturally, being forbidden many people want to go there for shits and giggles. Alas with the increased amount of dev work, and the amount of time spent fiddling with Frostbite, I'm not surprised it got cut. It's disappointing though. In Tevinter with blood magic being acceptable it won't be as fun to play, it'd just be normal. And normal is just a synonym for boring.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ProbeAway on Oct 29, 2017 8:24:20 GMT
I think we also need to acknowledge the elephant in the room here: they got rid of sustainable abilities and spells (a silly idea, IMO).
It wouldn't be impossible to do a blood mage specialisation without sustainables - eg only spells in the blood mage tree use health - but the end result would be far more restrictive than being able to turn blood magic on/off at will.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2017 9:41:05 GMT
I can't interpret the "would be detrimental to other content" part of the citation. Where can I found that content what prevented them? Somewhere in the empty deserts? It would have required a LOT of hand-waving to justify allowing the Inquisitor being a blood mage. Cullen, Vivienne, Cassandra and Sera just wouldn’t follow a blood mage, as would many Chantry faithful. And if you’re putting that much work into justifying one specialization, then you’re going to have to rob from the others. (It was sarcasm, but:) Cullen and Cassandra followed the Blessed Hand, even if that hand's accessory was a godless "ox" (Herald of Andraste!). Vivienne's irrelevant, but she followed the Inquisition for promising political opportunities, I don't think, she would be so squeamish. Okay, now seriously, as I mentioned first: the Inquisition is an Andrastian, Chantry-creation. You're right, the blood magic not really fit the circumstances. BUT. The world was about to collapse at their eyes. I don't think they would have been so squeamish. I suppose a world savior action would be a priority over the worry about a tabu. (Remember: Wynne can accept the blood mage Warden.) So on one hand, you're right, they would be very suspicious, or a blood mage as Herald of Andraste might have undermined their faith. On other hand, I suppose, the practical thinking would defeat their disgust. the Anyway, a blood mage Inquisitor would interesting. (And my imagination is, that my Trevelians practiced blood magic in the Circle, secretly... for defense, and for fun, because the life in the circle is unbearable without some fun – we saw in the Calenhad Tower and the Kirkwall Circle: the blood magic belongs to the Circles: I can't imagine Circle without it. Prisons are the best training providers for beginner and advanced criminals.)
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Psychevore on Oct 29, 2017 9:59:00 GMT
l0rdv1ct0r No, blood magic is not a specialization available. The actual quote by David Gaider is in a video so here is the Wikipedia's summation of the reason behind this developers' choice: "The writers decided that in order to do it properly it would require a lot of reactivity from other characters in the world compared to other specializations, which would be detrimental to other content." Yes. It seemed clear, that they could not handle this question. Blood Mage Hawke's presentation was pathetic... But I can't interpret the "would be detrimental to other content" part of the citation. Where can I found that content what prevented them? Somewhere in the empty deserts? Being a blood mage would need so much reaction from other characters in the world that Bioware would either have to make the same amount of reactivity for other classes or have blood mage be something really special to play, making the others less fun. Simply put, adding blood magic as an option would be a lot of extra work.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2017 10:08:23 GMT
Yes. It seemed clear, that they could not handle this question. Blood Mage Hawke's presentation was pathetic... But I can't interpret the "would be detrimental to other content" part of the citation. Where can I found that content what prevented them? Somewhere in the empty deserts? Being a blood mage would need so much reaction from other characters in the world that Bioware would either have to make the same amount of reactivity for other classes or have blood mage be something really special to play, making the others less fun. Simply put, adding blood magic as an option would be a lot of extra work. So far they did not care much about the consistency: just see the "three mages in one clan rule", what absolutely illogical, probably was included to show, how the good Templars saves the poor elven mage kids from the barbarian elves. They had time to write such a bullshit to explain, why the Circle and the Templar Order are acceptable... true, this didn't require too much intellect... By the way, basically, I agree. as I wrote here at first:
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 29, 2017 14:26:34 GMT
There is a difference between blood magic and necromancy when it comes to acceptability. The activities of the Mortalitasi in Nevarra have ensured that necromancy remains an acceptable discipline. I must admit I was surprised to discover it only became an order in that country well after the Chantry was founded, which is odd considering it was founded by a Tevinter mage and involves entombment of bodies and tampering with corpses that would seem to fly in the face of Chantry teaching on such matters. Nevertheless the fact remains it was accepted and allowed by the Chantry in that country, so there is a precedence for its use.
Blood magic was specifically condemned by the first ever Divine Justinia I and has been stigmatised by the Chantry ever since. In fact that was only her interpretation of the Chant of Light and there is nothing specific in there to condemn its use. However, 800 years of prejudice and condemnation against its use would mean that it required rather more than "I don't like you using blood magic" among the various key figures from Chantry/Circle backgrounds like Cassandra, Leliana, Cullen and Vivienne. Since they have always made blood magic a specialisation you have to learn and in DAI you learn your specialisation with specific trainers, that effectively prohibited you from becoming a blood mage because your advisors would never have authorised summoning a blood mage trainer to Skyhold.
What would have been interesting, though, would have been to be able to discuss this prohibition with them. As it is, the only person you discuss it with, Solas, says there is nothing wrong with it, he disapproves if you call it evil, and that is the sum total of debate you can have on the subject. Considering he is meant to be such an expert on all things magical, it would have been helpful for Solas to have been able to explain the exact mechanics of how blood magic works but I dare say he couldn't because of "spoilers".
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 29, 2017 14:50:19 GMT
Being a blood mage would need so much reaction from other characters in the world that Bioware would either have to make the same amount of reactivity for other classes or have blood mage be something really special to play, making the others less fun. Simply put, adding blood magic as an option would be a lot of extra work. Why though? Blood magic is suppose to be different/more dangerous than regular magic and warrior or rogue class. They have already established that. In a dialogue with Sera she tells the Inquisitor she is not happy with the Inquisitor being a Necro, that's all that is needed, not every npc has to react and it doesn't have to be mentioned all the time as some wouldn't care. Having the Inquisitor be a maleficar would be a disaster. The Templars already there before the Herald even became Inquisitor may abandon their station, and the Templars you can potentially recruit from Thereinfal Redoubt would definitely leave. They spent their whole lives indoctrinated to the idea that maleficar are basically ghoulish criminals that need to be executed. They're not just going to let that go. Then there's the diplomatic implications of it. If Orlais got wind of it, the Inquisitor would never be permitted within 10 miles of Empress Celene, let alone anywhere inside the Winter Palace. Unlocking this specialization would be its own special sequence rather than the normal specialists invited to Skyhold to teach the Inquisitor a new skill, so it would be learned in secret outside the walls. The question is whether or not Leliana would go along with this and keep it from Cassandra, who would most certainly not support this.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 29, 2017 18:32:28 GMT
Did Bioware ever explain why Hawke was so against BM in DAI when there were many cases in DA2 where you could supporr BM and if you were a mage, could be a BM yourself.
Was this ever explained?
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 29, 2017 18:43:19 GMT
Did Bioware ever explain why Hawke was so against BM in DAI when there were many cases in DA2 where you could supporr BM and if you were a mage, could be a BM yourself. Was this ever explained? No, but considering that it wasn't part of the DA Keep, Hawke couldn't vary on that dialogue anyway.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 29, 2017 19:01:46 GMT
I think they simply assumed that after everything that happened that involved blood magic in DA2 and particularly what Grace and Orsino did, that Hawke might have renounced the use of it even if they were a blood mage. It was strange if you are in favour of blood magic and were a committed blood mage but clearly they decided to ignore that possibility.
The generic nature of Hawke is one of the reasons people are a bit wary of asking for the Inquisitor to return.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 29, 2017 20:09:13 GMT
I think they simply assumed that after everything that happened that involved blood magic in DA2 and particularly what Grace and Orsino did, that Hawke might have renounced the use of it even if they were a blood mage. It was strange if you are in favour of blood magic and were a committed blood mage but clearly they decided to ignore that possibility. The generic nature of Hawke is one of the reasons people are a bit wary of asking for the Inquisitor to return. Its a reason, but why they assumed that this is natural? And Orsino? Why exactly Orsino? Quentin, not? A woodcutter drops his axe, if a crazy axe-killer kills his mother? Perhaps, but not necessarily. Why didn't they assume, that after what Alric and Meredith did, nobody wants to be a Templar or choose the Templars, so, why were the Templars acceptable? (According Varric in the Inquisition, Carver stayed in the Order, wtf? I assumed, he left...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 22:32:38 GMT
someone can explain me, this big deal with npc reactions?
I mean, from DAO to DA2 i tried a lot of specializations, and there is no single reaction in dialogue for any npc regardless of your specs.
But let's say that maybe i missed a line or something perhaps, (can happen) but what? one or maybe two reactions at most, about maybe from 20 specs, only 1 or two got referenced maybe? and very few times.
Specs never had impact (or a very big impact if you like it better this way) story/dialogue wise. Simply bioware didn't add blood magic, because they didn't want to, end of the story, really there is nothing much to tell.
they cutted spec content and oversimplified it, so hardly leaves room for more anyway.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 29, 2017 22:42:36 GMT
Being a blood mage would need so much reaction from other characters in the world that Bioware would either have to make the same amount of reactivity for other classes or have blood mage be something really special to play, making the others less fun. Simply put, adding blood magic as an option would be a lot of extra work. Why though? Blood magic is suppose to be different/more dangerous than regular magic and warrior or rogue class. They have already established that. In a dialogue with Sera she tells the Inquisitor she is not happy with the Inquisitor being a Necro, that's all that is needed, not every npc has to react and it doesn't have to be mentioned all the time as some wouldn't care. Blood magic is forbidden, necromancy is not. It is as simple as that. someone can explain me, this big deal with npc reactions? I mean, from DAO to DA2 i tried a lot of specializations, and there is no single reaction in dialogue for any npc regardless of your specs. That’s not entirely true, but the lack of reactivity to your specs was the source of endless complaints. I do not need to hear “Why does no one care about Hawke being a blood mage?” repeated endlessly again.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 30, 2017 0:27:44 GMT
Being a Tempest - covering yourself in alchemical mixtures and covering yourself in ice or fire - is not commonplace. Being a Reaver by drinking dragon blood is not commonplace. It should be acknowledged in dialogue.
However, blood mages are supposed to be killed on sight. To have a blood mage leading the Inquisition would require a lot of hand-waving.
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Post by eskiya on Oct 30, 2017 12:51:41 GMT
Another problem would be characterizing the Inquisitor if blood magic was an option. Dorian, when asked, actually explains that it's like an addiction. You start out innocent enough with your own blood or from a willing participant, but as you use it you start to need MORE, which is when you start going after unwilling participants and summoning demons and stuff.
Cullen's addiction arc was simple enough since his story is linear, Quizy on the other hand has so many paths and branches, adding another (far more complicated) would be insane to ask of the devs and the Budget.
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Post by wickedcool on Oct 30, 2017 13:09:17 GMT
One of the writers/directors clearly wanted a change in direction from dao/da2. Hawked anti blood mage stance and his anger towards wardens was a big leap especially if you go with blood smear option.
I still find it interesting that some some of the new developer folks played dao for fun. Feels like a homework assignment. Maybe the ship is being steered back towards darker material.
If we start in tevinter and there’s no option for blood magic then it’s never coming back
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 30, 2017 15:13:52 GMT
Being a blood mage would need so much reaction from other characters in the world that Bioware would either have to make the same amount of reactivity for other classes or have blood mage be something really special to play, making the others less fun. Simply put, adding blood magic as an option would be a lot of extra work. So far they did not care much about the consistency: just see the "three mages in one clan rule", what absolutely illogical, probably was included to show, how the good Templars saves the poor elven mage kids from the barbarian elves. They had time to write such a bullshit to explain, why the Circle and the Templar Order are acceptable... true, this didn't require too much intellect... By the way, basically, I agree. as I wrote here at first: Right. A crappy implementation of being a blood mage would have been doable, but I'm not going to go around asking for crappy.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Oct 30, 2017 15:26:23 GMT
One of the writers/directors clearly wanted a change in direction from dao/da2. Hawked anti blood mage stance and his anger towards wardens was a big leap especially if you go with blood smear option. I still find it interesting that some some of the new developer folks played dao for fun. Feels like a homework assignment. Maybe the ship is being steered back towards darker material. If we start in tevinter and there’s no option for blood magic then it’s never coming back Both bullshit are explainable. The Warden issue with Hawke's experiences with Larius and Janeka, and the blood magic "hatred" can be explained on many way. • As others already wrote before me, Hawke can be disgusted from blood magic, and stop to use (this happens with the "Exotic Wonder" and Gascard duPuis as well, if Hawke spare their life). • Hawke can continue the practice of the blood magic, but to hide that before the Inquisition. (My choice)
• Hawke's owerconfident and has his own normative and law (blood mage, ofc.). He uses the blood magic his own way, but can be judgemental toward everyone else, who uses that on other way, and consider them incompetent and evil idiot. And even can consider the human sacrifice as evil (My choice) • Hawke can be simple hypocrite (This is similar to the one above, not the same).
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 30, 2017 16:04:12 GMT
A cut dialogue from the game indicates Hawke got fed up with blood magic after what happened with Orsino. After seeing Leandra killed by a blood mage and so many others corrupted by its practice, seeing the Grand Enchanter become a Harvester was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Hawke was never more than a faux blood mage anyway. They never summoned demons or sacrificed others in blood rituals.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 30, 2017 16:08:16 GMT
A cut dialogue from the game indicates Hawke got fed up with blood magic after what happened with Orsino. After seeing Leandra killed by a blood mage and so many others corrupted by its practice, seeing the Grand Enchanter become a Harvester was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Hawke was never more than a faux blood mage anyway. They never summoned demons or sacrificed others in blood rituals. Yes, Hawke has moral limit, just as Merrill. Hawke can deal with demons, in the fade, and there are the evil tomes. Why would s/he "faux"? No blood magic without human sacrifice? Of cours the self sacrifice also "human sacrifice", and when s/he cuts his/her vein and causes pain to his/herself, this IS a kind of "human sacrifice"... Using his/her companies life for hel him/herself, IS "human sacrifice" (this spell never used by my Hawkes...)
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