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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 10, 2018 23:38:00 GMT
True, though I was thinking more as a result of plot than just you making a decision they don't like. Counting that: Mages: Wynne, Merrill, Anders, Solas Rogues: Leliana, Zevran, Isabela, Sebastian Warriors: Alistair, Fenris, The Iron Bull
Yeah Warriors are still the least likely to betray you, either through plot or player choice To turn against the protagonist to protect their beliefs isn't betrayal, if the protagonist knew about their beliefs. How Anders' a betrayer? Hawke can be betrayer, if they're friends, and as a mage (or with a living mage sister!) supports the Templars. How Fenris' a betrayer, if Hawke doesn't care about him? Of course he will follow his fears. How Merrill can be betrayer? She's a mage. Hawke can be betrayer. How Wynne can be betrayer? She protects her people and her beliefs. How Bull is a betrayer? He's loyal... to the Qun. It was always clear, who is he. Etc... They're not the protagonist's puppets. I agree, hence my original count. That said, Anders absolutely betrays you by lying and trying to get you to help him commit his terrorist act.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 10, 2018 23:42:53 GMT
To turn against the protagonist to protect their beliefs isn't betrayal, if the protagonist knew about their beliefs.
How Anders' a betrayer? Hawke can be betrayer, if they're friends, and as a mage (or with a living mage sister!) supports the Templars. How Fenris' a betrayer, if Hawke doesn't care about him? Of course he will follow his fears. How Merrill can be betrayer? She's a mage. Hawke can be betrayer. How Wynne can be betrayer? She protects her people and her beliefs. How Bull is a betrayer? He's loyal... to the Qun. It was always clear, who is he.
Etc... They're not the protagonist's puppets. I agree, hence my original count. That said, Anders absolutely betrays you by lying and trying to get you to help him commit his terrorist act. He lied to Hawke, not betrayed Hawke. And not terrorist act. Terror is what the Chantry did for centuries.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 10, 2018 23:47:37 GMT
I agree, hence my original count. That said, Anders absolutely betrays you by lying and trying to get you to help him commit his terrorist act. He lied to Hawke, not betrayed Hawke. And not terrorist act. Terror is what the Chantry did for centuries. He betrayed Hawke’s trust, making them potentially complicit and accessory in mass murder. It is a terrorist act. We’ve had this argument countless times and I’m not interested in having it again. You’re wrong, end of story.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 10, 2018 23:50:41 GMT
He lied to Hawke, not betrayed Hawke. And not terrorist act. Terror is what the Chantry did for centuries. He betrayed Hawke’s trust, making them potentially complicit and accessory in mass murder. It is a terrorist act. We’ve had this argument countless times and I’m not interested in having it again. You’re wrong, end of story. The Chantry committed terrorist acts for centuries – and Elthina supported that. You're wrong. NOW end of the story.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 10, 2018 23:52:51 GMT
He betrayed Hawke’s trust, making them potentially complicit and accessory in mass murder. It is a terrorist act. We’ve had this argument countless times and I’m not interested in having it again. You’re wrong, end of story. The Chantry committed terrorist acts for centuries – and Elthina supported that. You're wrong. NOW end of the story. None of that is relevant to whether or not Anders committed terrorism as well. He did, as established in the lore and common sense. Get over it and don’t reply to this.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 10, 2018 23:57:13 GMT
The Chantry committed terrorist acts for centuries – and Elthina supported that. You're wrong. NOW end of the story. None of that is relevant to whether or not Anders committed terrorism as well. He did, as established in the lore and common sense. Get over it and don’t reply to this. No he didn't – according the common sense, the terrorist was the Chantry, he fought against the terror-institute. Get over it and don’t reply to this.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2018 0:03:14 GMT
And reported.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 0:04:59 GMT
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gangrelbeckett
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 530 Likes: 463
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Dec 11, 2018 0:05:09 GMT
He lied to Hawke, not betrayed Hawke. And not terrorist act. Terror is what the Chantry did for centuries. He betrayed Hawke’s trust, making them potentially complicit and accessory in mass murder. It is a terrorist act. We’ve had this argument countless times and I’m not interested in having it again. You’re wrong, end of story. Great argument. I really don´t think that there will be ever an easy answer. Anders or should i say Justice/Vengeance was wrong. But also Elthina and especially Meredith was wrong.
You mentioned in an other thread the nuremberg trials. I don´t know but are familiar with Claus von Stauffenberg?
He was known for his failed attempt to kill Hitler. Today he is viewed all over Germany as hero. But then he was just terrorist.
Like the real world this isn´t just Black and White. Even the noblest deed could be view by some as bad.
You condemn Anders but what had happened if he hadn´t done everything? Well Meredith would likely killed all the circle mages and almost nobody in Thedas would have take notice.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 0:08:50 GMT
He betrayed Hawke’s trust, making them potentially complicit and accessory in mass murder. It is a terrorist act. We’ve had this argument countless times and I’m not interested in having it again. You’re wrong, end of story. Great argument. I really don´t think that there will be ever an easy answer. Anders or should i say Justice/Vengeance was wrong. But also Elthina and especially Meredith was wrong.
You mentioned in an other thread the nuremberg trials. I don´t know but are familiar with Claus von Stauffenberg?
He was known for his failed attempt to kill Hitler. Today he was viewed all over Germany as Hero. But then he was just terrorist.
Like the real world this isn´t just Black and White. Even the noblest deed could be view by some as bad.
You condemn Anders but what had happened if he hadn´t done everything? Well Meredith would likely killed all the circle mages and almost nobody in Thedas would have take notice. I don't even think, that Anders was wrong. He launched a rebellion, this was necessary, the peaceful solution was not available in Kirkwall.. He pulled the problem out of the Circle. This was good. His tool was morally questionable, yes. The Chantry explosion was morally grey act. The Chantry, Elthina and Meredith were morally wrong.
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Post by Artemis on Dec 11, 2018 0:16:21 GMT
Okay, I'm going for things we've never had before, and want to avoid past tropes at all costs.
1. A good mage, preferably female. Perhaps someone who escaped from the Qun, a really gentle girl who happened to be 8 foot tall would be kind of adorable. Please, I'd like us to have just one mage who doesn't have some creepy ulterior motive. bi-romance
2. A female Warden, any race. Her personal quest could link to the whole Warden sub-plot that was hinted at in DA:I. f/f romance
3. An older male soldier, not a templar. Perhaps he knew Krem and recalls helping him escape. He's not necessarily loyal to his government and willing to join our cause (whatever that may be). m/m romance
4. An escaped slave, but not a mage, and an elf. I know we had this in Fenris, but we're actually in Tevinter now, and it would be curious to see maybe a slave who worked for a noble family like Dorian's. We've only had Dorian's (pretty gross) side of that story, where he claimed slaves were no better than free poor folk. So I'd like to see the other side of the argument (if you can call it that). Either gender? ace
5. A dwarf from the Coterie, probably a woman. straight
6. Another dwarf, a man, but a scholar. And he is not "feminized" because he's a scholar; he is a typical-looking dwarf, broad-shouldered, thick hair and beard. Perhaps he's older. And of course he can fight. His research is somehow vital to the plot. straight
I don't think we should really have more than this. I feel like DA2 had the perfect number of companions; I also like the all-bi aspect, but I'm pretty sure BioWare aren't going back to that. With my romance picks, I tried to go against past tropes, though, oops, I made both dwarfs straight which is odd. But y'all know I'm all for no straights whatsoever in the party ;D Make the straights the boring ones who never leave the castle lmao
I'm also all for non-binary characters, for any of the above. Same with trans.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 11, 2018 0:17:45 GMT
He betrayed Hawke’s trust, making them potentially complicit and accessory in mass murder. It is a terrorist act. We’ve had this argument countless times and I’m not interested in having it again. You’re wrong, end of story. Great argument. I really don´t think that there will be ever an easy answer. Anders or should i say Justice/Vengeance was wrong. But also Elthina and especially Meredith was wrong.
You mentioned in an other thread the nuremberg trials. I don´t know but are familiar with Claus von Stauffenberg?
He was known for his failed attempt to kill Hitler. Today he was viewed all over Germany as Hero. But then he was just terrorist.
Like the real world this isn´t just Black and White. Even the noblest deed could be view by some as bad.
You condemn Anders but what had happened if he hadn´t done everything? Well Meredith would likely killed all the circle mages and almost nobody in Thedas would have take notice.
I’m doubtful that she’d, for the very reason that as long as Elthina was alive, she’d have prevented that measure. Unless the lyrium idol would’ve corrupted her to the point of attempting to kill her, at which point Cullen would’ve lead the Templars against her. The answer is never going to easy because all sides on the matter are portrayed on a grey area, but Kirkwall was an extreme situation in all aspects. Meredith proclaiming the Right of Annulment was wrong for the simple reason that Anders was never a mate of Kirkwall Circle, which is the primary reason I stood with the mages in my canon (because all sides were portrayed on a negative way, with Orsino’s involvement with Quentin the icing of the cake.). But Anders knew that, and did it for the very reason to reach the breaking point of a direct fight between mages and Templars, uncaring that many mages would’ve died. Well, in mine he actually tried to put a stop on it, but Vengeance proved who was really in control. The irony is that he won’t be recalled as a hero also by the mages he wanted to protect, at least the general population, and that his actions not in the grand scheme of thigs were not that important as he thought, as it took actions of others to reach the true separation, otherwise it’d have been all for naught.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 11, 2018 0:18:14 GMT
Good advice. let's not recreate the lore as well as discussing it...
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 11, 2018 0:21:34 GMT
Great argument. I really don´t think that there will be ever an easy answer. Anders or should i say Justice/Vengeance was wrong. But also Elthina and especially Meredith was wrong.
You mentioned in an other thread the nuremberg trials. I don´t know but are familiar with Claus von Stauffenberg?
He was known for his failed attempt to kill Hitler. Today he was viewed all over Germany as Hero. But then he was just terrorist.
Like the real world this isn´t just Black and White. Even the noblest deed could be view by some as bad.
You condemn Anders but what had happened if he hadn´t done everything? Well Meredith would likely killed all the circle mages and almost nobody in Thedas would have take notice. I don't even think, that Anders was wrong. He launched a rebellion, this was necessary, the peaceful solution was not available in Kirkwall.. He pulled the problem out of the Circle. This was good. His tool was morally questionable, yes. The Chantry explosion was morally grey act. The Chantry, Elthina and Meredith were morally wrong. He launched nothing, as the rebellion wouldn’t have actually started without the actions of Adrian and Lambert. And no, I’d have understood it being morally grey if he killed just Ethina. But his explosion, per Keep, killed hundreds. It didn’t stop me siding with mages in my canon, but it was wrong.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 0:28:55 GMT
I don't even think, that Anders was wrong. He launched a rebellion, this was necessary, the peaceful solution was not available in Kirkwall.. He pulled the problem out of the Circle. This was good. His tool was morally questionable, yes. The Chantry explosion was morally grey act. The Chantry, Elthina and Meredith were morally wrong. He launched nothing, as the rebellion wouldn’t have actually started without the actions of Adrian and Lambert. And no, I’d have understood it being morally grey if he killed just Ethina. But his explosion, per Keep, killed hundreds. It didn’t stop me siding with mages in my canon, but it was wrong. Anders' act was a big part of the rebellion. Canonically. Dozens. He killed dozens. Sebastian (at the explosion and in the Inquisition strengthened too) doesn't have reason to reduce the numbers. And about the morally grey: If the Chantry, the Templar Order is morally grey (or good... oh my!), Anders' a pure angel – whit his act as well.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2018 0:32:35 GMT
He betrayed Hawke’s trust, making them potentially complicit and accessory in mass murder. It is a terrorist act. We’ve had this argument countless times and I’m not interested in having it again. You’re wrong, end of story. Great argument. I really don´t think that there will be ever an easy answer. Anders or should i say Justice/Vengeance was wrong. But also Elthina and especially Meredith was wrong.
You mentioned in an other thread the nuremberg trials. I don´t know but are familiar with Claus von Stauffenberg?
He was known for his failed attempt to kill Hitler. Today he is viewed all over Germany as hero. But then he was just terrorist.
Like the real world this isn´t just Black and White. Even the noblest deed could be view by some as bad.
You condemn Anders but what had happened if he hadn´t done everything? Well Meredith would likely killed all the circle mages and almost nobody in Thedas would have take notice. There is an easy answer. Anders killed dozens to hundreds of innocent people. He is evil. The fact others could have committed evil acts doesn’t absolve him, especially when those people weren’t the ones he killed. So no he is nothing like people like Stauffenberg.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 0:34:57 GMT
Great argument. I really don´t think that there will be ever an easy answer. Anders or should i say Justice/Vengeance was wrong. But also Elthina and especially Meredith was wrong.
You mentioned in an other thread the nuremberg trials. I don´t know but are familiar with Claus von Stauffenberg?
He was known for his failed attempt to kill Hitler. Today he is viewed all over Germany as hero. But then he was just terrorist.
Like the real world this isn´t just Black and White. Even the noblest deed could be view by some as bad.
You condemn Anders but what had happened if he hadn´t done everything? Well Meredith would likely killed all the circle mages and almost nobody in Thedas would have take notice. There is an easy answer. Anders killed dozens to hundreds of innocent people. He is evil. The fact others could have committed evil acts doesn’t absolve him, especially when those people weren’t the ones he killed. The Chantry/Templars killed and tortured countless... it's evil. Anders just fought against the evil.
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Post by Dirk on Dec 11, 2018 0:35:13 GMT
Okay, I'm going for things we've never had before, and want to avoid past tropes at all costs. 1. A good mage, preferably female. Perhaps someone who escaped from the Qun, a really gentle girl who happened to be 8 foot tall would be kind of adorable. Please, I'd like us to have just one mage who doesn't have some creepy ulterior motive. bi-romance 2. A female Warden, any race. Her personal quest could link to the whole Warden sub-plot that was hinted at in DA:I. f/f romance 3. An older male soldier, not a templar. Perhaps he knew Krem and recalls helping him escape. He's not necessarily loyal to his government and willing to join our cause (whatever that may be). m/m romance 4. An escaped slave, but not a mage, and an elf. I know we had this in Fenris, but we're actually in Tevinter now, and it would be curious to see maybe a slave who worked for a noble family like Dorian's. We've only had Dorian's (pretty gross) side of that story, where he claimed slaves were no better than free poor folk. So I'd like to see the other side of the argument (if you can call it that). Either gender? ace 5. A dwarf from the Coterie, probably a woman. straight 6. Another dwarf, a man, but a scholar. And he is not "feminized" because he's a scholar; he is a typical-looking dwarf, broad-shouldered, thick hair and beard. Perhaps he's older. And of course he can fight. His research is somehow vital to the plot. straight I don't think we should really have more than this. I feel like DA2 had the perfect number of companions; I also like the all-bi aspect, but I'm pretty sure BioWare aren't going back to that. With my romance picks, I tried to go against past tropes, though, oops, I made both dwarfs straight which is odd. But y'all know I'm all for no straights whatsoever in the party ;D Make the straights the boring ones who never leave the castle lmao I'm also all for non-binary characters, for any of the above. Same with trans. Wonderful list! I would be very interested in getting to know the daddy male soldier #3. Such character and romance is what I have always been looking for. The bi mage without ulterior motive is nice as well. As much as I love Anders and justify his actions, I could do with less explosive kind of relationship with a mage. The escaped slave is also a good one. I really want to see Dorian's viewpoints regarding slavery challenged. Actual ace representation is nice as well.
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yogsothoth
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by yogsothoth on Dec 11, 2018 0:36:23 GMT
Okay, I'm going for things we've never had before, and want to avoid past tropes at all costs. 3. An older male soldier, not a templar. Perhaps he knew Krem and recalls helping him escape. He's not necessarily loyal to his government and willing to join our cause (whatever that may be). m/m romance The old soldier/grizzled veteran is a pretty well-worn character trope for Bioware, one that I'm particularly tired of. We've had Wrex, Loghain, Drax, Blackwall, and Iron Bull (not quite as old as the others, but still no spring chicken).
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 11, 2018 0:40:21 GMT
He launched nothing, as the rebellion wouldn’t have actually started without the actions of Adrian and Lambert. And no, I’d have understood it being morally grey if he killed just Ethina. But his explosion, per Keep, killed hundreds. It didn’t stop me siding with mages in my canon, but it was wrong. Anders' act was a big part of the rebellion. Canonically. Dozens. He killed dozens. Sebastian (at the explosion and in the Inquisition strengthened too) doesn't have reason to reduce the numbers. And about the morally grey: If the Chantry, the Templar Order is morally grey (or good... oh my!), Anders' a pure angel – whit his act as well. He was such a big part that the situation would’ve fixed without others’ intervention. He had a role, which is a great as Adrian’s. Without her (or Lambert, for the matter) nothing would’ve happened. Dozens is enough to cathegorize his act as wrong. The Keep is newer howewer, compared to DA2, and it won’t be the first time Bioware changed things. They are morally grey organizations because there are both good people and bad people in it, and they do both good deeds and bad deeds. And they’re morally grey because of the standards of the setting. Anders is in the same area, and no, he’s no angel compared to them. He bloodied his hands with dozen/hundreds of innocent people, and the number she goes up for every mage killed in the events in Kirkwall. He himself recognized this. The only saving point he has is that regardless of the F/R his actions are influenced and brought to that point by J/V, in my opinion. But that’s still hardly a consolation, since it was a dumb thing to do to begin with.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 11, 2018 0:41:46 GMT
There is an easy answer. Anders killed dozens to hundreds of innocent people. He is evil. The fact others could have committed evil acts doesn’t absolve him, especially when those people weren’t the ones he killed. The Chantry/Templars killed and tortured countless... it's evil. Anders just fought against the evil. Evil can be fought by another evil, just saying. Just because who you’re fighting is bad, it doesn’t always mean you’re good.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2018 0:43:56 GMT
There is an easy answer. Anders killed dozens to hundreds of innocent people. He is evil. The fact others could have committed evil acts doesn’t absolve him, especially when those people weren’t the ones he killed. The Chantry/Templars killed and tortured countless... it's evil. Anders just fought against the evil. Again, that does not excuse the evil he committed.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2018 0:47:05 GMT
I agree, hence my original count. That said, Anders absolutely betrays you by lying and trying to get you to help him commit his terrorist act. And not terrorist act. Terror is what the Chantry did for centuries. Woooo, another Osama Bin Anders fan. o.o Let it go my dude, he blew up those poor innocent people in a strike design to impact politics and society, by definition, terrorism. Plus the act itself was deliberately made to resemble modern terrorist action for the audience.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Dec 11, 2018 0:49:18 GMT
MODERATOR POST
Let's keep this on track guys. This thread is for discussing the new companions you'd like to see in DA4, it's not about the validity of Anders' actions in DA2. Please take that to the DA2 boards.
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gangrelbeckett
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 530 Likes: 463
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Dec 11, 2018 0:51:19 GMT
There is an easy answer. Anders killed dozens to hundreds of innocent people. He is evil. The fact others could have committed evil acts doesn’t absolve him, especially when those people weren’t the ones he killed. So no he is nothing like people like Stauffenberg. First don´t compare your real churches with the Thedas ones. Ok then is that out the way. I really don´t think that Kirkwall church was this innocent. Lets don´t forget that Elthina was Merediths superior. Or was Meredith right in their actions to kill every (circle) mage in Kirkwall?
If Hitler had won the war (Thank god that didn´t happened) you can bet that Stauffenberg wasn´t viewed different than Anders. So sorry there will be never an easy answer. Life is complicated even in fictional ones.
Edit: Sorry JingleGrey.
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