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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 0:51:54 GMT
Anders' act was a big part of the rebellion. Canonically. Dozens. He killed dozens. Sebastian (at the explosion and in the Inquisition strengthened too) doesn't have reason to reduce the numbers. And about the morally grey: If the Chantry, the Templar Order is morally grey (or good... oh my!), Anders' a pure angel – whit his act as well. He was such a big part that the situation would’ve fixed without others’ intervention. He had a role, which is a great as Adrian’s. Without her (or Lambert, for the matter) nothing would’ve happened. Dozens is enough to cathegorize his act as wrong. The Keep is newer howewer, compared to DA2, and it won’t be the first time Bioware changed things. They are morally grey organizations because there are both good people and bad people in it, and they do both good deeds and bad deeds. And they’re morally grey because of the standards of the setting. Anders is in the same area, and no, he’s no angel compared to them. He bloodied his hands with dozen/hundreds of innocent people, and the number she goes up for every mage killed in the events in Kirkwall. He himself recognized this. The only saving point he has is that regardless of the F/R his actions are influenced and brought to that point by J/V, in my opinion. But that’s still hardly a consolation, since it was a dumb thing to do to begin with. Evil can be fought by another evil, just saying. Just because who you’re fighting is bad, it doesn’t always mean you’re good.The events were built on each other. Sebastian in the Inquisition wrote, that he killed dozens. Anders is an angel compared to the Chantry and the Templar Order. And he's as a good Andrastian just helped to purge this corrupted Chantry. The Templar Order has good people, but the Order itself, serves the evil. Yes, an evil who fight against another evil isn't inherently good, but especially Anders was right. What he did, was terrible, and he knew it (the rivalry is shit, he blamed Justice for everything, was not able to take the responsibility for his act), but even necessary, so: morally grey. The Chantry's Circle-system is simply evil.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2018 0:52:14 GMT
The Chantry/Templars killed and tortured countless... it's evil. Anders just fought against the evil. Evil can be fought by another evil, just saying. Just because who you’re fighting is bad, it doesn’t always mean you’re good. I'd argue the Chantry's evil is the result of the politics its involved in as the result of its placement in Orlais more so then overt ill intent, because it has been used as a mouthpiece for more then the Maker's Will sadly. Its been used as a justification for invasion of other nations...That said, erm its the only thing holding the South together to fight Qunari, so I'd they need it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2018 0:55:20 GMT
There is an easy answer. Anders killed dozens to hundreds of innocent people. He is evil. The fact others could have committed evil acts doesn’t absolve him, especially when those people weren’t the ones he killed. So no he is nothing like people like Stauffenberg. First don´t compare your real churches with ours. Ok then is that out the way. I really don´t think that Kirkwall church was this innocent. Lets don´t forget that Elthina was Merediths superior. Or was Meredith right in their actions to kill every (circle) mage in Kirkwall?
If Hitler had won the war (Thank god that didn´t happened) you can bet that Stauffenberg wasn´t viewed different than Anders. So sorry there will be never an easy answer. Life is complicated even in fictional ones.
Where did I compare churches? So you don't think there was a single innocent person within the Chantry itself or the parts of Kirkwall destroyed by the rubble? No she wasn't. You don't see me defending Meredith, do you? I'm saying Stauffenberg and Anders aren't the same because Stauffenberg didn't kill countless innocent people when he tried killing Hitler. How history remembers an event has nothing to do with it, though if you want it should be noted even the mages saw what he did as monstrous and denounced his actions so no matter who wins he is seen the same.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 0:58:45 GMT
And not terrorist act. Terror is what the Chantry did for centuries. Woooo, another Osama Bin Anders fan. o.o Let it go my dude, he blew up those poor innocent people in a strike design to impact politics and society, by definition, terrorism. Plus the act itself was deliberately made to resemble modern terrorist action for the audience. False comparison.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 1:02:25 GMT
First don´t compare your real churches with ours. Ok then is that out the way. I really don´t think that Kirkwall church was this innocent. Lets don´t forget that Elthina was Merediths superior. Or was Meredith right in their actions to kill every (circle) mage in Kirkwall?
If Hitler had won the war (Thank god that didn´t happened) you can bet that Stauffenberg wasn´t viewed different than Anders. So sorry there will be never an easy answer. Life is complicated even in fictional ones.
Where did I compare churches? So you don't think there was a single innocent person within the Chantry itself or the parts of Kirkwall destroyed by the rubble? No she wasn't. You don't see me defending Meredith, do you? I'm saying Stauffenberg and Anders aren't the same because Stauffenberg didn't kill countless innocent people when he tried killing Hitler. How history remembers an event has nothing to do with it, though if you want it should be noted even the mages saw what he did as monstrous and denounced his actions so no matter who wins he is seen the same. So: your terrorist is my freedom fighter...
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 11, 2018 1:02:42 GMT
He was such a big part that the situation would’ve fixed without others’ intervention. He had a role, which is a great as Adrian’s. Without her (or Lambert, for the matter) nothing would’ve happened. Dozens is enough to cathegorize his act as wrong. The Keep is newer howewer, compared to DA2, and it won’t be the first time Bioware changed things. They are morally grey organizations because there are both good people and bad people in it, and they do both good deeds and bad deeds. And they’re morally grey because of the standards of the setting. Anders is in the same area, and no, he’s no angel compared to them. He bloodied his hands with dozen/hundreds of innocent people, and the number she goes up for every mage killed in the events in Kirkwall. He himself recognized this. The only saving point he has is that regardless of the F/R his actions are influenced and brought to that point by J/V, in my opinion. But that’s still hardly a consolation, since it was a dumb thing to do to begin with. Evil can be fought by another evil, just saying. Just because who you’re fighting is bad, it doesn’t always mean you’re good.The events were built on each other. Sebastian in the Inquisition wrote, that he killed dozens. Anders is an angel compared to the Chantry and the Templar Order. And he's as a good Andrastian just helped to purge this corrupted Chantry. The Templar Order has good people, but the Order itself, serves the evil. Yes, an evil who fight against another evil isn't inherently good, but especially Anders was right. What he did, was terrible, and he knew it (the rivalry is shit, he blamed Justice for everything, was not able to take the responsibility for his act), but even necessary, so: morally grey. The Chantry's Circle-system is simply evil. Fair enough, I forgot about that. And we’ll have to disagree on that, because for me are all on a grey area, in general. And Anders himself is a morally grey character, but the actions at the end in DA2 were wrong. Evil can be fought by another evil, just saying. Just because who you’re fighting is bad, it doesn’t always mean you’re good. I'd argue the Chantry's evil is the result of the politics its involved in as the result of its placement in Orlais more so then overt ill intent, because it has been used as a mouthpiece for more then the Maker's Will sadly. Its been used as a justification for invasion of other nations...That said, erm its the only thing holding the South together to fight Qunari, so I'd they need it. That’s for sure. Orlais plays a role in the portrayal and opinion on the Chantry. Orlais as well, is a big flawed country, but it’s impossible to not consider its role against the Qun. On the Chantry-Maker thing, it’ll be curious to see what will happen in TDWR if the truth of the Veil comes out.
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Post by Artemis on Dec 11, 2018 1:05:17 GMT
Okay, I'm going for things we've never had before, and want to avoid past tropes at all costs. 3. An older male soldier, not a templar. Perhaps he knew Krem and recalls helping him escape. He's not necessarily loyal to his government and willing to join our cause (whatever that may be). m/m romance The old soldier/grizzled veteran is a pretty well-worn character trope for Bioware, one that I'm particularly tired of. We've had Wrex, Loghain, Drax, Blackwall, and Iron Bull (not quite as old as the others, but still no spring chicken). They've all been straight, my friend! With the exception of Bull, who was bi, and does not quite fit the stereotype because, yes, he's only in his 30s and I really had in mind the "jaded and grumpy old soldier" type, which Bull is not. So the idea here is a grizzled male veteran who is gay, something we have not seen before! I wanted to challenge tropes with my list and hope I managed to do that.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2018 1:07:02 GMT
Woooo, another Osama Bin Anders fan. o.o Let it go my dude, he blew up those poor innocent people in a strike design to impact politics and society, by definition, terrorism. Plus the act itself was deliberately made to resemble modern terrorist action for the audience. False comparison. He was a terrorist. See I can condense a point down too save mine is actually more then just a junk phrase.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2018 1:07:50 GMT
The old soldier/grizzled veteran is a pretty well-worn character trope for Bioware, one that I'm particularly tired of. We've had Wrex, Loghain, Drax, Blackwall, and Iron Bull (not quite as old as the others, but still no spring chicken). They've all been straight ...And that matters why?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 1:11:06 GMT
He was a terrorist. See I can condense a point down too save mine is actually more then just a junk phrase. No he's not like that. And it's just a junk phrase.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 1:13:31 GMT
They've all been straight ...And that matters why? Its of course matters. You just kidding, yes?
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gangrelbeckett
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Dec 11, 2018 1:14:50 GMT
Where did I compare churches? Just out as cautiousness. This isn´t my first conversation with this topic. No but this was war. It sucks but innocents are always the first who suffer.
But Elthina and thats important. Elthina had the power to stop Meredith but she didn´t do nothing.
It depends some of them were just soldiers who followed orders. But i agree that this could be view as controversial.
Even Anders admits that. In the long run he didn´t accomplish nothing but he did something for Kirkwall mages
even if they haven´t appreciated it. He showed the whole world of Thedas what Meredith had done. If Anders hadn´t done nothing nobody would have take notice of the killed mages of Kirkwall.
Also didn´t nobody saw JingleGreys Post?
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2018 1:15:35 GMT
Its of course matters. You just kidding, yes? No? I don't usually go into a game looking at the sexuality of NPCs to tick off some quota box. I expect them to be well written hopefully and have motivations, ideals and ambitions that make sense within the framework of the world and narrative but sexuality...erm, not exactly the first thing on the list when I consider companions in a RPG, because they only ties into a rather limited aspect of a character. Romance, and not much revolves around that for me, its a video game character.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 11, 2018 1:21:40 GMT
MODERATOR POST
Let's keep this on track guys. This thread is for discussing the new companions you'd like to see in DA4, it's not about the validity of Anders' actions in DA2. Please take that to the DA2 boards. 👆What Ms Grey said👆
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 1:21:43 GMT
Its of course matters. You just kidding, yes? No? I don't usually go into a game looking at the sexuality of NPCs to tick off some quota box. I expect them to be well written hopefully and have motivations, ideals and ambitions that make sense within the framework of the world and narrative but sexuality...erm, not exactly the first thing on the list when I consider companions in a RPG, because they only ties into a rather limited aspect of a character. Romance, and not much revolves around that for me, its a video game character.If you don't care about it, why do you care about it? And it's a media representation. It's matter, it's important.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2018 1:22:03 GMT
Where did I compare churches? Just out as cautiousness. This isn´t my first conversation with this topic. No but this was war. It sucks but innocents are always the first who suffer.
But Elthina and thats important. Elthina had the power to stop Meredith but she didn´t do nothing.
It depends some of them were just soldiers who followed orders. But i agree that this could be view as controversial.
Even Anders admits that. In the long run he didn´t accomplish nothing but he did something for Kirkwall mages even if they haven´t appreciated it.
He showed the whole world of Thedas what Meredith had done. If Anders hadn´t done nothing nobody would have take notice of the killed mages of Kirkwall.
Also didn´t nobody saw JingleGreys Post? I saw it, hence why I haven't responded on the topic since the post you're quoting. I didn't see their post until after it was posted. Ah, okay. I thought you were saying I did when my only mention of any church was the Chantry, and even then only as a building not a religion. And I don't tolerate that. I don't praise people who kill innocent people, even during war, and I'm certainly not going to in fiction. I'm not defending Elthina either. I'm referring to the nameless characters we either see or hear of dying from the explosion. considering the place where the bomb was planted, everyone within there was part of his inner circle. But best not to bring real life stuff into this. All Anders did for the Kirkwall mages was offer them up as a sacrificial pawn to rally the rest of the Circles. I also disagree nobody would have noticed considering things we learn, but we were told to drop the conversation so I will.
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Post by Dirk on Dec 11, 2018 1:22:04 GMT
So, according to the TVTrope page on DA2 (not the most reliable source I know), Hawke was originally intended to be a companion and werewolf! I think it would be cool to have a werewolf companion in DA4. There could be interesting comparison/discussion between them and Solas or some cheesy puns and jokes about wolves.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2018 1:24:41 GMT
No? I don't usually go into a game looking at the sexuality of NPCs to tick off some quota box. I expect them to be well written hopefully and have motivations, ideals and ambitions that make sense within the framework of the world and narrative but sexuality...erm, not exactly the first thing on the list when I consider companions in a RPG, because they only ties into a rather limited aspect of a character. Romance, and not much revolves around that for me, its a video game character.If you don't care about it, why do you care about it? Because several characters have been to put it quite bluntly been ruined by this shit?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 1:27:06 GMT
If you don't care about it, why do you care about it? Because several characters have been to put it quite bluntly been ruined by this shit? How they ruined?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 11, 2018 1:27:36 GMT
So, according to the TVTrope page on DA2 (not the most reliable source I know), Hawke was originally intended to be a companion and werewolf! I think it would be cool to have a werewolf companion in DA4. There could be interesting comparison/discussion between them and Solas or some cheesy puns and jokes about wolves. I support a werewolf companion. Also one of those sentient trees might be fun. I say we get weird with it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 11, 2018 1:30:42 GMT
Because several characters have been to put it quite bluntly been ruined by this shit? How they ruined? Because before they were my bros and everything was cool, but now they might be thinking about me sexually, even though I have all the charisma of bin lining, and that makes me as uncomfortable as I make women feel, and I don't like the taste of my own medicine.
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Post by Artemis on Dec 11, 2018 1:52:43 GMT
Because before they were my bros and everything was cool, but now they might be thinking about me sexually, even though I have all the charisma of bin lining, and that makes me as uncomfortable as I make women feel, and I don't like the taste of my own medicine. I don't even know what the guy said b/c I've had him blocked for years, but that was beautiful.
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Andraste_Reborn
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,469 Likes: 6,346
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Dec 11, 2018 5:34:08 GMT
My ideal #TheDreadWolfRises roster would be:
1. Scout Lace Harding: for every reason everyone already stated. She's cute, she's a perfect link between the last game and the next, and she should be our first lady dwarf romance. (We already know she's bi, so that's easy.)
2. A Fog Warrior. I already want to go to Seheron and meet the locals, let's take one away with us so s/he can disappear into the shadows and stab our foes for us.
3. A Grey Warden rogue from the Anderfells. We've already had a Warden warrior and a mage (potentially/sort of) in the roster, so it's time for one of their rogues! Probably should be a woman since Alistair and Anders and Blackwall are all dudes.
4. Calpernia. You can't really kill her, she's got a fascinating perspective on Tevinter, let's go.
5. Maevaris Tilani. She's beauty, she's grace, she'll fireball you in the face. And if Cassandra and Vivienne can run around with the Inquisitor fetching elfroot and fighting bandits then I don't see why she should come with us. Would be a fascinating contrast with Calpernia, especially if her attitude towards slavery is the same as Dorian's.
6. A Tal-Vashoth ex-Sarabaas who hates the Qun. We've had one loyal Qunari, one who can go either way depending on player behaviour, and we've been able to play as a Vashoth. Time for someone who was brought up under the Qun and has every reason to despise it.
7. An Ambassadoria dwarf who loves his home and his people and doesn't really want to be on the surface but, whoops, here we are. He should be a warrior, for maximum contrast with Harding. (Alternately, we could get our next dwarf warrior from Kal-Sharok, but I'd prefer the Ambassadoria if I got to choose.)
8. A Tevinter Templar, because that sounds fascinatingly different to being a Templar in the south and I want to hear everything.
9. A Dalish elf warrior inspired by the Green Knights who is mad at Solas and wants to fight for her people against him.
I realise I just made a list with six women in it, but since Inquisition had six male companions, I don't see why the next game shouldn't tilt the other way.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 11, 2018 5:51:32 GMT
I realise I just made a list with six women in it, but since Inquisition had six male companions, I don't see why the next game shouldn't tilt the other way. Because when 5 or more women gather under a single roof, one of them instantly becomes pregnant and a baby shower must ensue.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 11, 2018 6:13:10 GMT
Because when 5 or more women gather under a single roof, one of them instantly becomes pregnant and a baby shower must ensue. The Breach was actually caused by too many women coming into close proximity of Varric's chesthair. The sheer amount of pregnancies and baby showers that resulted, eventually hit critical mass.
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