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Post by midnight tea on Dec 10, 2016 22:11:45 GMT
As far as the lore is concerned there were not speculations in my previous post.According to Corypheus the Black city was Black and not golden when he went there,it didn't changed it was already like that If you want to quote the lore, it'd be prudent if you did so acurately. Corypheus dodn't say anything about the City being Black - he referred to the darkness trapped within. And yes - the Golden City turned to Black after Cory and his team entered it: it change and Blight appeared in the world. That is a Change through major C. Tranquils don't have a special connection with Titans or Stone dwarves have and whatever has crippled dwarves has obviously not crippled them to the level of Tranquil. This is not a speculation. Dagna tells us outright that Lyrium and Fade are linked.
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Post by xerrai on Dec 12, 2016 0:45:45 GMT
As far as the lore is concerned there were not speculations in my previous post.According to Corypheus the Black city was Black and not golden when he went there,it didn't changed it was already like that If you want to quote the lore, it'd be prudent if you did so acurately. Corypheus dodn't say anything about the City being Black - he referred to the darkness trapped within. And yes - the Golden City turned to Black after Cory and his team entered it: it change and Blight appeared in the world. That is a Change through major C. Tranquils don't have a special connection with Titans or Stone dwarves have and whatever has crippled dwarves has obviously not crippled them to the level of Tranquil. This is not a speculation. Dagna tells us outright that Lyrium and Fade are linked. Actually, I'm pretty sure that Coryphaeus did say the city was already black when he got there. There was even a discussion about it with Mother Giselle if I am remembering right. But then again, my memory is fuzzy. I think Mother Giselle said that the city may have appeared black to him because of the darkness in his heart? Again, really fuzzy. And while most dwarves underground may have lingering connection to the stone/titan, that connection apparently does not exist for surface dwarves who, in their exile, note that that their stone sense dwindles to near nothingness. (Also I would not call the dwarves, "crippled". Their empire, yes, but not the dwarves themselves.) But you are most likely right when it comes to lyrium being connected to the fade (Dagna, lyrium being used for harrowings, the treatise that lyrium vapors directly affect the availability of magic, lyrium appearing in the fade, a titan waking up because of the breach etc.) . Though I would hold judgement before we judge just how connected they are. It could very well be that it only rarely connects to the fade in certain instances.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 2:03:51 GMT
Redeem. He's just another pawn in Mythal's plans.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 12, 2016 14:03:04 GMT
If you want to quote the lore, it'd be prudent if you did so acurately. Corypheus dodn't say anything about the City being Black - he referred to the darkness trapped within. And yes - the Golden City turned to Black after Cory and his team entered it: it change and Blight appeared in the world. That is a Change through major C. Tranquils don't have a special connection with Titans or Stone dwarves have and whatever has crippled dwarves has obviously not crippled them to the level of Tranquil. This is not a speculation. Dagna tells us outright that Lyrium and Fade are linked. Actually, I'm pretty sure that Coryphaeus did say the city was already black when he got there. There was even a discussion about it with Mother Giselle if I am remembering right. But then again, my memory is fuzzy. I think Mother Giselle said that the city may have appeared black to him because of the darkness in his heart? Again, really fuzzy. What Corypheus referred to, if I remember phrasing correctly, was seat of god and how it was already corrupted, or how the darkness was already there and they've embraced it, not the city being Black already. I mean, it's not like Corypheus and his venture to the Fade was the first ever recorded event in human history - by that time there were already numerous mages, including talented Tevinter dreamers, who have established that the City was indeed Gold and uncorrupted, at least outwardly - and it changed after its gates have been breached, which was also the same time the Blight appeared, on surface at least. Don't forget that the argument here was that the Black/Golden City was always as it was and never underwent any change: but whatever was inside it and no matter how long it lingered there, there's no question that venture of Tevinter magister has changed it throughout, how it appears in the Fade and has fundamentally changed the world outside of the Fade, by bringing Archdemons and darkspawn hordes on the surface. And yes, we can't forget that Corypheus' memory from that time was twisted by the Blight and spotty. I have no doubt in my mind that Giselle claimed that Cory's testimonies are unreliable, because they go against the heart of her faith, but while I wouldn't dismiss everything he says Corypheus himself admits that he's unsure of the details, and I don't think Architect remembers the event that changed him at all. According to Cole it exists, but is either dormant or diminished. And yes, they do seem to be crippled, just like modern non-dwarf Theosians are crippled by presence of the Veil that cuts their conscious connection to the Fade, courtesy of Dread Wolf. It may not be a fatal or intellectual sort of crippling, but there is some sort of... deficiency, likely on magical field. And whatever was done to dwarves in the past has affected all of them deeply (with exceptions lke Sandal or Valta, I guess. Even Sha-Brytol in Descent, ancient and living near the Titans for ages haven't been anywhere close to dwarves of past, hence the Titan didn't care about them). Those 'instances' seem to be very consistent though - lyrium is not just used in Harrowings; it is used throughout history to boost mages' connection to the Fade, it was also of GREAT interest to ancient elves, as evidenced by Deep Roads section in Trespasser, and elves are magical and 'Fadey' creatures throughout. Heck, even Well OF Sorrows is implied to drwa its power from underground... Plus - even Chantry believes that lyrium are 'emerald waters of Fade' from which the Maker has created the material world, although how much of that is just pue conjecture we may not know for a while yet.
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Post by Destructive Deer on Dec 12, 2016 16:02:17 GMT
Fairly easy choice, I went with the kill/stop at all costs option.
Solas is a wise, rational and caring person, he isn't very judgemental and seemingly attached/friendly with members of the Inquisition's inner circle and possibly the Inquisitor themselves.
And despite that, he still thinks it's A-OK to commit genocide to bring back ye 'good' ol' times. He can rationalize the idea that everyone else - including some people he somewhat cares about - dying so he can maybe see his old friends again, is totally fine and not terrible. He cares about the people of the current world, but clearly not enough because he doesn't enough if they all die.
To me that sounds like the epitome of egoism and insanity. If Solas is unhappy, everyone must die until he is. Convincing this man is going to be borderline impossible and giving Solas a chance means you're giving the end of Thedas a chance. Most of my Inquisitors are all for giving everyone a chance and believing in the good of people, but risking everyone's lives to give Solas a chance is too much.
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Post by xerrai on Dec 15, 2016 17:33:16 GMT
Fairly easy choice, I went with the kill/stop at all costs option. Solas is a wise, rational and caring person, he isn't very judgemental and seemingly attached/friendly with members of the Inquisition's inner circle and possibly the Inquisitor themselves. And despite that, he still thinks it's A-OK to commit genocide to bring back ye 'good' ol' times. He can rationalize the idea that everyone else - including some people he somewhat cares about - dying so he can maybe see his old friends again, is totally fine and not terrible. He cares about the people of the current world, but clearly not enough because he doesn't enough if they all die. To me that sounds like the epitome of egoism and insanity. If Solas is unhappy, everyone must die until he is. Convincing this man is going to be borderline impossible and giving Solas a chance means you're giving the end of Thedas a chance. Most of my Inquisitors are all for giving everyone a chance and believing in the good of people, but risking everyone's lives to give Solas a chance is too much. That's the question isn't it? Why.
Between the debates of who "his people" are and what the end goal for himself is, it is a point of discussion to tell if he is doing just for himself, 'his people' or some romantic sense of how the world may be suffering. That being said, I am about 70% percent certain he's not doing it for himself. Between him walking Din'an'Shiral and saying he should "pay the price" to Flemeth, it is most likely he intends to die in one form or another once all is said and done. IN his mind at least, he is doing it for "the people". Not himself. Which is something interesting seeing as far as most are concerned "his people" no longer exist, and thus no concern should be given to their plight even though their plight exists. Which ties in further to the debate about who "his people" are (if spirits are included that category for instance, he could view the veil and how modern Thedas treats them as a subjugation of his people that will most likely see no end as they are forced to wallow away from a world they were once able to understand. Or if we are taking about ancient elves who are either forced to sleep for near eternity or could never hope to integrate into modern thedas without major persecution). Hence why I want to redeem him. If he's not doing it for himself, then it is very possible he is doing out of a sense of duty or obligation to save 'his people' from a world that will not accept them and whose constant 'suffering' (apparently) far outweighs the regrettable genocide he may have to commit in an effort to shape the world to where it is more suited to them. That does not make him right. Not even close to it. But it is far from egotism and insanity. Or at least until the next game comes out and answers a lot of questions we have about him.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 15, 2016 23:04:58 GMT
Actually, I'm pretty sure that Coryphaeus did say the city was already black when he got there. There was even a discussion about it with Mother Giselle if I am remembering right. But then again, my memory is fuzzy. I think Mother Giselle said that the city may have appeared black to him because of the darkness in his heart? Again, really fuzzy. What Corypheus referred to, if I remember phrasing correctly, was seat of god and how it was already corrupted, or how the darkness was already there and they've embraced it, not the city being Black already. I mean, it's not like Corypheus and his venture to the Fade was the first ever recorded event in human history - by that time there were already numerous mages, including talented Tevinter dreamers, who have established that the City was indeed Gold and uncorrupted, at least outwardly - and it changed after its gates have been breached, which was also the same time the Blight appeared, on surface at least. Don't forget that the argument here was that the Black/Golden City was always as it was and never underwent any change: but whatever was inside it and no matter how long it lingered there, there's no question that venture of Tevinter magister has changed it throughout, how it appears in the Fade and has fundamentally changed the world outside of the Fade, by bringing Archdemons and darkspawn hordes on the surface. And yes, we can't forget that Corypheus' memory from that time was twisted by the Blight and spotty. I have no doubt in my mind that Giselle claimed that Cory's testimonies are unreliable, because they go against the heart of her faith, but while I wouldn't dismiss everything he says Corypheus himself admits that he's unsure of the details, and I don't think Architect remembers the event that changed him at all. According to Cole it exists, but is either dormant or diminished. And yes, they do seem to be crippled, just like modern non-dwarf Theosians are crippled by presence of the Veil that cuts their conscious connection to the Fade, courtesy of Dread Wolf. It may not be a fatal or intellectual sort of crippling, but there is some sort of... deficiency, likely on magical field. And whatever was done to dwarves in the past has affected all of them deeply (with exceptions lke Sandal or Valta, I guess. Even Sha-Brytol in Descent, ancient and living near the Titans for ages haven't been anywhere close to dwarves of past, hence the Titan didn't care about them). Those 'instances' seem to be very consistent though - lyrium is not just used in Harrowings; it is used throughout history to boost mages' connection to the Fade, it was also of GREAT interest to ancient elves, as evidenced by Deep Roads section in Trespasser, and elves are magical and 'Fadey' creatures throughout. Heck, even Well OF Sorrows is implied to drwa its power from underground... Plus - even Chantry believes that lyrium are 'emerald waters of Fade' from which the Maker has created the material world, although how much of that is just pue conjecture we may not know for a while yet. There are Golems like Shale and Caridin who are not linked with the fade in any way and that at the same time are not linked with the stone,yet they are not like the Tranquils,which seem to suggest that your speculation on how about the stone saved the dwarves from being emotionless is not correct.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 15, 2016 23:46:47 GMT
There are Golems like Shale and Caridin who are not linked with the fade in any way and that at the same time are not linked with the stone,yet they are not like the Tranquils,which seem to suggest that your speculation on how about the stone saved the dwarves from being emotionless is not correct. ...Are you serious? The Golem is literally a magical creature. It is animated by the spark of lyrium (fade-linked and Titan-linked) and contains a frikking spirit of a dwarf. Technically then they appear to be way more connected to the Fade than your regular dwarf! What's more, have you forgotten about Amgarrak? The flesh golems? Those were created by using the same method, but the spirit of the Fade was used, instead of the Golem. And guess what, the experiment has worked. Seriously don, your knowledge of the lore is embarrassing for someone who spends so much time discussing Dragon Age...
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 16, 2016 13:33:30 GMT
Anyone who kills as many Qunari as Solas has gets to have a second chance.
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Post by oyabun on Dec 16, 2016 14:38:53 GMT
There are Golems like Shale and Caridin who are not linked with the fade in any way and that at the same time are not linked with the stone,yet they are not like the Tranquils,which seem to suggest that your speculation on how about the stone saved the dwarves from being emotionless is not correct. ...Are you serious? The Golem is literally a magical creature. It is animated by the spark of lyrium (fade-linked and Titan-linked) and contains a frikking spirit of a dwarf. Technically then they appear to be way more connected to the Fade than your regular dwarf! What's more, have you forgotten about Amgarrak? The flesh golems? Those were created by using the same method, but the spirit of the Fade was used, instead of the Golem. And guess what, the experiment has worked. Seriously don, your knowledge of the lore is embarrassing for someone who spends so much time discussing Dragon Age... I find it funny how you are lecturing people for their ignorance about the DA lore when they themselves are just criticizing what appear to be (at least for me)mere conjectures rather than facts set in stone. First off,the experiment made by using a spirit in order to create a Golem made of Flesh in the Amgarrak Dlc was a failure as the critter was clearly an insane monstruosity even the creators left hints that described the experiment as a failure that forced them to seal the whole structure,however if you want to see it as something that "worked" do as you please. More generally saying that lyrium infused beings(like Golems,Flesh Golems, addicted Templars,people like Fenris or whatever being whom body is imbued with lyrium..) are "more" linked to the fade because of the lyrium within their bodies is not a fact is a conjecture,as we know nothing on how lyrium enhance or repel magical forces,(because lyrium is also used to dispel magic not only to strengthen it)and we know nothing about what it makes a person more or less linked with the fade.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 16, 2016 15:19:09 GMT
There are Golems like Shale and Caridin who are not linked with the fade in any way and that at the same time are not linked with the stone,yet they are not like the Tranquils,which seem to suggest that your speculation on how about the stone saved the dwarves from being emotionless is not correct. Seriously don, your knowledge of the lore is embarrassing for someone who spends so much time discussing Dragon Age... Nah is not about my "knowledge" as I see it is just an inherent part of your nature when it comes to discuss the DA lore "to look too much into things" and ascribing such view as an invitable truth obtained through personal interpretation of fragments of informations(even if to you it is not a personal interpretation but an universal one like a scientific inquiry) rather than for what they are,conjectures obtained from fragments of informations.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 16, 2016 18:58:25 GMT
...Are you serious? The Golem is literally a magical creature. It is animated by the spark of lyrium (fade-linked and Titan-linked) and contains a frikking spirit of a dwarf. Technically then they appear to be way more connected to the Fade than your regular dwarf! What's more, have you forgotten about Amgarrak? The flesh golems? Those were created by using the same method, but the spirit of the Fade was used, instead of the Golem. And guess what, the experiment has worked. Seriously don, your knowledge of the lore is embarrassing for someone who spends so much time discussing Dragon Age... I find it funny how you are lecturing people for their ignorance about the DA lore when they themselves are just criticizing what appear to be (at least for me)mere conjectures rather than facts set in stone. Don or anyone else can criticize my 'mere conjecture' all you want, but in order to make valid counter-arguments he or anyone else should at least make them based on things we can find in the story, and not just made up stuff that can be dismantled in 5 seconds just by going on DA wiki or other lore sources. That's the point of my whole "lecture", and I find it bizarre that you're against it.... I mean, are you against quality discussion, even if all we're discussing are fantasy world? That doesn't excuse it. I also find it bizarre that you're clearly attempting to make me look like I'm some kind of hypocrite, when I'm nowhere close to his passing of wholly inaccurate ramblings as either a valid proof against my theories or... valid anything that could be used in a discussion without passing as either an ignoramus or a troll. Of course it worked. It has created a functioning creature - and in order to actually be one, it needed some form of spirit, be it dwarven or one form the Fade. That was the point I was making, NOT that it was identical to golems (especially considering the fact that it used flesh and not stone), but that it used the same methods to basically achieve a comparable result. I think you've treated my comment a bit too literally. It basically a tongue-in-cheek response to claims about the golems that are basically the exact opposite of what they're established in lore. Don claims that they're neither connected to Stone or Fade, even though they're powered or infused by lyrium - a thing that is established in the story to be deeply connected BOTH to stone and Fade! Hence *technically* the golems are more connected than regular dwarf, since we know that they use a substance linked to both, lol. Though yes - no matter how you spin it, that Fade and lyrium is connected is pretty much a reality ever since Dagna (a dwarf with deep knowledge of lyrium and magical theory, who also has access to top mages in Southern Thedas to check her theories) said that there's a link. And no matter the extent of connection and what it means there's another indisputable fact about lyrium: it's magic. Solas basically calls lyrium outright as "the source of all magic, save that which mages bring themselves". It is further proven by the fact that both enchants using lyrium or lyrium-infused creatures (like golems) are considered nothing else BUT magic, even if the ability to process or otherwise use lyrium to enchant is available only to dwarves and Tranquil (as far as we know). And "magic", so far, in world of Thedas is basically synonymous with the Fade. You may try and question it, asking perhaps how is it that lyrium can "repel" magical forces... but it's hardly the only substance, thing or person that can do it. I mean... what do you think the "dispel" ability in mages' battle repertoire does? Seekers have the same abilities as Templars in the game and they can "reinforce" reality as well, but their ability comes DIRECTLY from the Fade and their bond with spirits of Faith (and it's not just a gameplay feature - this is explicitly addressed in the game several times). So they're literally 'reinforcing reality' in which they believe in - an ability Templars have to use lyrium to work, pretty much borrowing power to 'enforce reality' from Titans. That only strengthens the very real possibility that the major force in Thedas is power of belief or will, with Titans likely being at the top of the 'food chain', even if elves have done something to them - I say so, because they've been called the 'pillars of the Earth' and may indeed be beings whose will may hold the whole material world together. I mean, we did see what happens when one of them merely stirs (and he got woken up by the Breach - if that doesn't say of direct connection between Titans and Fade, I don't know what else is)...
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 16, 2016 19:27:21 GMT
Seriously don, your knowledge of the lore is embarrassing for someone who spends so much time discussing Dragon Age... Nah is not about my "knowledge" as I see it is just an inherent part of your nature when it comes to discuss the DA lore "to look too much into things" and ascribing such view as an invitable truth obtained through personal interpretation of fragments of informations(even if to you it is not a personal interpretation but an universal one like a scientific inquiry) rather than for what they are,conjectures obtained from fragments of informations. ...Don, you've just spouted completely factually incorrect nonsense and now you're trying to spin the whole thing as if you're making some sort of convoluted point about 'inherent part of my nature' I mean, if the bit about dwarves wasn't embarrassing, this certainly is: the silliest of ad homs I've seen in a while. I'm making enough of an effort to treat you seriously enough to even try and address your arguments and not write you off as a complete troll most of times, but you're really not helping yourself with stuff like this.
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Post by badking on Dec 19, 2016 22:19:33 GMT
I chose to redeem him, but given BioWare's track record I imagine that both options will lead to the same conclusion... (Mass Effect spoilers BTW)
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Post by fylimar on Dec 20, 2016 16:14:15 GMT
Regardless of chosing to kill or redeem Solas, I really hope, they give his story a satisfactory end in one of the next games. Him being Fen'harel was a nice surprise on my first playthrough and I really hope, they manage to give that twist a meaningful end.
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Post by Jarovbees on Jan 19, 2017 1:10:09 GMT
My Lavellan is a sucker for redemption, so she's going to try against all odds. (No, she didn't romance him but she thought they were bffs.) But my Adaars and Cadash want his head. So, kill. Sorry you were outvoted, Lavellan.
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Post by Biodron on Jan 19, 2017 1:58:32 GMT
You know, if my inquisitor was me i would try broke the egg but since my lavellan is so in love with him, she's going to try to redeem him.
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Post by Kei on Jan 27, 2017 12:39:06 GMT
Bioware primarily cares about the story of a small circle of NPC supermages and Solas is one of them. "This franchise is about Thedas, not the player character" is a convenient smokescreen for that. This is the main reason as for why I would like to permantently kill his character as well as others of the same kind.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 27, 2017 14:22:55 GMT
Bioware primarily cares about the story of a small circle of NPC supermages and Solas is one of them. "This franchise is about Thedas, not the player character" is a convenient smokescreen for that. This is the main reason as for why I would like to permantently kill his character as well as others of the same kind. And yet all the 'supermages' do is bring about events that allow us to pick at and investigate Thedas with hardly any time being dedicated to the supermage in question (save for some choice DLCs), with some being no more interested in the 'supermage' in question than they are in washing their laundry. All in all, the 'supermages' seem to be more akin to tools for Thedas' exploration/plot than the actual focus (save for the fans that undoubtedly crop up for each character).
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 17:22:58 GMT
I will be supremely disappointed if there is an option to redeem him.
Let him die with his world vision
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 27, 2017 17:30:09 GMT
I will be supremely disappointed if there is an option to redeem him. Let him die with his world vision Get used to disappointment early.
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 17:34:47 GMT
I will be supremely disappointed if there is an option to redeem him. Let him die with his world vision Get used to disappointment early. a man can dream
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 27, 2017 17:37:22 GMT
Get used to disappointment early. a man can dream Yes, but should he?
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inherit
98
0
Feb 18, 2020 17:11:03 GMT
3,042
Steelcan
2,078
August 2016
steelcan
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2017 17:45:13 GMT
when it comes to foiling the plans of Elven!Hitler yeah sure, why not
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inherit
2915
0
May 23, 2017 21:44:47 GMT
564
xilizhra
398
Jan 20, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
January 2017
xilizhra
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 27, 2017 17:52:17 GMT
when it comes to foiling the plans of Elven!Hitler yeah sure, why not Eh, there are other people I'd rather foil. At the moment, primarily Vivienne.
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