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Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 20:35:57 GMT
Oh, remarkable argument. Sex appeal matter! Not sex appeal it's more like; he is like my cool uncle who can beat 5 guys at the same time, but still takes me to football games. Maybe also a war veteran I see your point. but not all war veterans and uncle are respectable. And could lose the honor. Sadly, he corrupted. But perhaps, repairable.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 21:01:11 GMT
Not sex appeal it's more like; he is like my cool uncle who can beat 5 guys at the same time, but still takes me to football games. Maybe also a war veteran I see your point. but not all war veterans and uncle are respectable. And could lose the honor. Sadly, he corrupted. But perhaps, repairable. Yeah but don't forget that he is so friggin cool, it's the core of my argument
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 15, 2017 5:39:20 GMT
No. In Ostagar's case, his decision was morally questionable, not necessarily crime – as you say. I never told that Loghain's crime would the betrayal. I can accept his argument, that this was a "tactical retreat", I wrote. Not this as the reason, why I call Loghain criminal. If you use this argument for defending Loghain, we can say, Loghain innocent as a little lamb, he just worried about his own people. But not. Loghain's biggest crime isn't Ostagar. Again: Ostagar's decision is questionable. Loghain guilty in many crimes even if we ignore the betrayal. But you ignore these crimes, just mentioned his questionable "tactical retreat". Of course, you see Anders more guilty, because, according to you, Loghain just worried for his own people, and wanted to protect them, but Anders' hand is bloody. I never denied that. But if Loghain's decision was questionable, Anders decision was also questionable. He did it not from anger or vengeance. Anders knew well, what he did, and calculated the consequences. Anders was a passionate man, but not in this case. He did it coldly and with premeditation. (This is not an excuse –in fact, probably aggravating circumstance in many people's eyes– that's a fact.) He wanted a revolution, he did it. He didn't want vengeance, he wanted a war. Kirkwall Chantry wasn't a sanctuary, rather a symbol of corruption. He destroyed a symbol. And some people died in the explosion, undeniable – collateral damage, for the cause. Anders is a coward? No. He fights for the cause at any cost. On friendship path, if Hawke supports the Templars, no matter how many friendship Hawke have toward him, he will fight against Hawke for his cause, and this isn't betrayal on his part. If Hawke let him go, he will appear at the Gallows, and ready for the fight. He doesn't want to leave his fellows in the war, what he caused. So: he's not coward, but not risked by personally go into Val Royeaux to the Divine. This nonsense would have been, not courage. They would arrest him, and game over. He's an escaped mage, an escaped Grey Warden, an apostate, with rebel thoughts. Anders isn't an idiot. Yes, this would a nice, peaceful ... thing, but not a solution. And foolish, ineffective. He can be ignored, a big explosion isn't. And he took the possibility of compromise. Elthina was not able to intervene anymore. Always searching for the peaceful solution is a very nice thing, but sometimes it does not work. The war must be started, the Mages was forced to fight for themselves. Back to Loghain: Cailan and his people were sacrificed by Loghain, for the others. I can accept that, if Loghain really just wanted to spare the others, not just wanted Cailan dead. But as I said: let's be bona fide! Loghain wasn't a betrayal, Loghain was a cool-headed strategist, who cares about his people, and it was the best decision he could make. 1. But why he wanted to destroy all remained Grey Wardens? - Because he didn't believe, that the Blight started? But he got alerted by the Grey Wardens, and this alert was clear. He ignored this, and started to pursue and destroy Grey Wardens. This is a crime.
- Or because the remained Grey Wardens are witness to what he did? He did not want witnesses? Then what he did at Ostagar, was betrayal, and he knew, that there is no excuse. (Or just don't expect, that if anyone will know about it, could misinterpret his goodwill...)
2. Sold his people to slavery. You think, this is acceptable? 3. Calenhad Tower almost destroyed because he used Uldred. 4. Redcliffe almost destoryed, because he used Jowan. 5. He let Howe and other nobles misuse, just because they were a useful ally. He didn't lied and didn't used people? Or this is acceptable, because he was a regent? Or because Loghain used other, mostly unknown people, not your Warden, and this wasn't personal, so Loghain isn't insulted your Warden's pride? Let him redeem himself is a good decision. I did it. But he's criminal, we simply can't just ignore these crimes. Anders did a morally questionable decision and sacrificed people, for his own people – just as Loghain in Ostagar, if we accept his own argument. Of course, anyone can consider him guilty and execute him. He also acknowledges that the people deserve justice. This is why he just wait for Hawke's verdict. He's not innocent, he murdered many people for his cause. But he's not worse than Loghain. You see, I accept this, but you ignored Loghain other "questionable" decisions against his people. His crime is the abuse of political power. You can't ignore that. He was in a responsible position, and he undertook this and misused this. Hmm, you are right about Loghain. I appreciate being corrected. I have to say I have forgotten a lot about what he did in DAO, the betrayal was the thing that I always remembered about him, Howe because of the warden and totally forgot about the rest. Ouch. I think I played so much DAI that I saw the person he had become and forgot the one he left behind. Now that you brought up those events, I do recall my anger with Loghain back then (I can't even remember when I played DAO, it's been so many years) and wanted him dead. But I curbed the anger and chose redemption for him. They're both equally bad. If the warden didn't rally the armies, the blight would consume Ferelden. Anders act is a FU to the world, setting off a conflict that raged across nations. I still have not changed my opinion about Anders. What I said before about him, stands. To me, Anders had always been running. Running from himself, what he was, his problems, running from things that upset him, running for that wispy foggy freedom he knew he could never get. He never turned around to face the tiger on his heels. He's always jumping from one frying pan to another without thinking it through. He just saw the next pan as a nice quick escape opening from whatever problem that was plaguing him. He got tired of the running, jumping and decide to set everything on fire. I do not see the point of redemption for him. P.S. Loghain's deeds. Loghain's distrust of GW. He has cause. There is the history of GW rising against King Arland despite them being a neutral order and were henceforth banished until Maric allowed them to return. Maric refused to tell him just where he had gone with the GW (The Stolen Throne). Given GW zealous protective creed of their secrets / order, Duncan wouldn't have told him how he came by the intelligence about the darkspawn. All these things weigh heavily against GW, to Loghain. Cailan's clear worship of them was no help either. Loghain sold the elves. Unacceptable irregardless. Nevertheless, he likely did so to get some sort of aid from Tewinter as well as to get rid of a group of people he didn't need. Money for soldiers, supplies? Or magic aid? Anybody's guess. Uldred's actions were his own at the tower, Loghain chose him to garner support from the Circle. Jowan. Plain assassination of a rival who would clearly not agree to his taking up the reins as regent. The Hero of Riverdain stooped to betrayal of the king and killing from the shadows. Arl Eamon and the warden. Howe. I mentioned a plausible explanation why Loghain did not rein in Howe; distraction over the betrayal. Howe had no love for the GW either. Better the man not mesmerized by GW tales / legends, better the man willing to remove a problem. Given how Loghan was portrayed in the novels, his fight to free Ferelden, it is a sad thing to see him descend into the dark. His decisions and actions spoke for him in the game but no one will really know his true feelings and thoughts. If you perceive I'm more sympathetic towards Loghain, I am.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 15, 2017 12:59:56 GMT
No. In Ostagar's case, his decision was morally questionable, not necessarily crime – as you say. I never told that Loghain's crime would the betrayal. I can accept his argument, that this was a "tactical retreat", I wrote. Not this as the reason, why I call Loghain criminal. If you use this argument for defending Loghain, we can say, Loghain innocent as a little lamb, he just worried about his own people. But not. Loghain's biggest crime isn't Ostagar. Again: Ostagar's decision is questionable. Loghain guilty in many crimes even if we ignore the betrayal. But you ignore these crimes, just mentioned his questionable "tactical retreat". Of course, you see Anders more guilty, because, according to you, Loghain just worried for his own people, and wanted to protect them, but Anders' hand is bloody. I never denied that. But if Loghain's decision was questionable, Anders decision was also questionable. He did it not from anger or vengeance. Anders knew well, what he did, and calculated the consequences. Anders was a passionate man, but not in this case. He did it coldly and with premeditation. (This is not an excuse –in fact, probably aggravating circumstance in many people's eyes– that's a fact.) He wanted a revolution, he did it. He didn't want vengeance, he wanted a war. Kirkwall Chantry wasn't a sanctuary, rather a symbol of corruption. He destroyed a symbol. And some people died in the explosion, undeniable – collateral damage, for the cause. Anders is a coward? No. He fights for the cause at any cost. On friendship path, if Hawke supports the Templars, no matter how many friendship Hawke have toward him, he will fight against Hawke for his cause, and this isn't betrayal on his part. If Hawke let him go, he will appear at the Gallows, and ready for the fight. He doesn't want to leave his fellows in the war, what he caused. So: he's not coward, but not risked by personally go into Val Royeaux to the Divine. This nonsense would have been, not courage. They would arrest him, and game over. He's an escaped mage, an escaped Grey Warden, an apostate, with rebel thoughts. Anders isn't an idiot. Yes, this would a nice, peaceful ... thing, but not a solution. And foolish, ineffective. He can be ignored, a big explosion isn't. And he took the possibility of compromise. Elthina was not able to intervene anymore. Always searching for the peaceful solution is a very nice thing, but sometimes it does not work. The war must be started, the Mages was forced to fight for themselves. Back to Loghain: Cailan and his people were sacrificed by Loghain, for the others. I can accept that, if Loghain really just wanted to spare the others, not just wanted Cailan dead. But as I said: let's be bona fide! Loghain wasn't a betrayal, Loghain was a cool-headed strategist, who cares about his people, and it was the best decision he could make. 1. But why he wanted to destroy all remained Grey Wardens? - Because he didn't believe, that the Blight started? But he got alerted by the Grey Wardens, and this alert was clear. He ignored this, and started to pursue and destroy Grey Wardens. This is a crime.
- Or because the remained Grey Wardens are witness to what he did? He did not want witnesses? Then what he did at Ostagar, was betrayal, and he knew, that there is no excuse. (Or just don't expect, that if anyone will know about it, could misinterpret his goodwill...)
2. Sold his people to slavery. You think, this is acceptable? 3. Calenhad Tower almost destroyed because he used Uldred. 4. Redcliffe almost destoryed, because he used Jowan. 5. He let Howe and other nobles misuse, just because they were a useful ally. He didn't lied and didn't used people? Or this is acceptable, because he was a regent? Or because Loghain used other, mostly unknown people, not your Warden, and this wasn't personal, so Loghain isn't insulted your Warden's pride? Let him redeem himself is a good decision. I did it. But he's criminal, we simply can't just ignore these crimes. Anders did a morally questionable decision and sacrificed people, for his own people – just as Loghain in Ostagar, if we accept his own argument. Of course, anyone can consider him guilty and execute him. He also acknowledges that the people deserve justice. This is why he just wait for Hawke's verdict. He's not innocent, he murdered many people for his cause. But he's not worse than Loghain. You see, I accept this, but you ignored Loghain other "questionable" decisions against his people. His crime is the abuse of political power. You can't ignore that. He was in a responsible position, and he undertook this and misused this. Hmm, you are right about Loghain. I appreciate being corrected. I have to say I have forgotten a lot about what he did in DAO, the betrayal was the thing that I always remembered about him, Howe because of the warden and totally forgot about the rest. Ouch. I think I played so much DAI that I saw the person he had become and forgot the one he left behind. Now that you brought up those events, I do recall my anger with Loghain back then (I can't even remember when I played DAO, it's been so many years) and wanted him dead. But I curbed the anger and chose redemption for him. They're both equally bad. If the warden didn't rally the armies, the blight would consume Ferelden. Anders act is a FU to the world, setting off a conflict that raged across nations. I still have not changed my opinion about Anders. What I said before about him, stands. To me, Anders had always been running. Running from himself, what he was, his problems, running from things that upset him, running for that wispy foggy freedom he knew he could never get. He never turned around to face the tiger on his heels. He's always jumping from one frying pan to another without thinking it through. He just saw the next pan as a nice quick escape opening from whatever problem that was plaguing him. He got tired of the running, jumping and decide to set everything on fire. I do not see the point of redemption for him. P.S. Loghain's deeds. Loghain's distrust of GW. He has cause. There is the history of GW rising against King Arland despite them being a neutral order and were henceforth banished until Maric allowed them to return. Maric refused to tell him just where he had gone with the GW (The Stolen Throne). Given GW zealous protective creed of their secrets / order, Duncan wouldn't have told him how he came by the intelligence about the darkspawn. All these things weigh heavily against GW, to Loghain. Cailan's clear worship of them was no help either. Loghain sold the elves. Unacceptable irregardless. Nevertheless, he likely did so to get some sort of aid from Tewinter as well as to get rid of a group of people he didn't need. Money for soldiers, supplies? Or magic aid? Anybody's guess. Uldred's actions were his own at the tower, Loghain chose him to garner support from the Circle. Jowan. Plain assassination of a rival who would clearly not agree to his taking up the reins as regent. The Hero of Riverdain stooped to betrayal of the king and killing from the shadows. Arl Eamon and the warden. Howe. I mentioned a plausible explanation why Loghain did not rein in Howe; distraction over the betrayal. Howe had no love for the GW either. Better the man not mesmerized by GW tales / legends, better the man willing to remove a problem. Given how Loghan was portrayed in the novels, his fight to free Ferelden, it is a sad thing to see him descend into the dark. His decisions and actions spoke for him in the game but no one will really know his true feelings and thoughts. If you perceive I'm more sympathetic towards Loghain, I am. I agree about Loghain, of course, he has his own reasons. If he wouldn't be regent, perhaps his prejudices would more understandable. As regent, he simply shouldn't allow himself to be prejudiced. Sadly his prejudices prevent him from to be a good ruler, and tempted him to use dirty tools, despite in his position he had better opportunities to enforce his will. He's a farmer boy, a soldier, strategist and hero. Not a ruler. His daughter seems much better in it. (I like Anora + Alistair, the practicality, and the heart.) About Anders: yes, he just fled, throughout his life, until Kirkwall. Thanks for Justice, he doesn't run away from the problems anymore. Of course, on friendship path. On rivalry (I never did it, just saw), Hawke crush him, and forced him to flee again. This is very sad, because Anders' right. The Chantry's standpoint about the mages is not acceptable, and never was. The peaceful solution does not exist (especially in Kirkwall, but Fiona also failed with). I said, the peace is the best thing ever, but if the price is the corruption and the institutionalized violence behind the closed doors, the revolution is important. The Chantry really needed this purge. Setting off a conflict that raged across nations was a bad thing? No. I played with Surana in DAO and I saw the mage girl in the Circle's Chantry, how scolded herself, because she felt guilty about, what is she. I saw the tranquils, and later, that Bethany feels herself guilty, a burden, because what she is. This is sick. The war was necessary.And this is the reason, why we will not agree in this. You think, the peace is above all, even if the price is unacceptable. I think, there are exceptions. For example the slavery and the institutionalized violence. I don't say, that if anyone executed Loghain and/or Anders is a bad decision. The murder happened, and both are responsible for his own acts. (Anders/Justice willingly accepts Hawke's verdict. – You see: Justice doesn't try to protect Anders, Anders doesn't want to flee from the punishment) In Anders' case, there are situations, when the execution is the best choice (for example rivalry, and support the templars – he wants to die, and really unstable, to killing him a blessing for him.)
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 16, 2017 1:44:22 GMT
I agree about Loghain, of course, he has his own reasons. If he wouldn't be regent, perhaps his prejudices would more understandable. As regent, he simply shouldn't allow himself to be prejudiced. Sadly his prejudices prevent him from to be a good ruler, and tempted him to use dirty tools, despite in his position he had better opportunities to enforce his will. He's a farmer boy, a soldier, strategist and hero. Not a ruler. His daughter seems much better in it. (I like Anora + Alistair, the practicality, and the heart.) About Anders: yes, he just fled, throughout his life, until Kirkwall. Thanks for Justice, he doesn't run away from the problems anymore. Of course, on friendship path. On rivalry (I never did it, just saw), Hawke crush him, and forced him to flee again. This is very sad, because Anders' right. The Chantry's standpoint about the mages is not acceptable, and never was. The peaceful solution does not exist (especially in Kirkwall, but Fiona also failed with). I said, the peace is the best thing ever, but if the price is the corruption and the institutionalized violence behind the closed doors, the revolution is important. The Chantry really needed this purge. Setting off a conflict that raged across nations was a bad thing? No. I played with Surana in DAO and I saw the mage girl in the Circle's Chantry, how scolded herself, because she felt guilty about, what is she. I saw the tranquils, and later, that Bethany feels herself guilty, a burden, because what she is. This is sick. The war was necessary.And this is the reason, why we will not agree in this. You think, the peace is above all, even if the price is unacceptable. I think, there are exceptions. For example the slavery and the institutionalized violence. I don't say, that if anyone executed Loghain and/or Anders is a bad decision. The murder happened, and both are responsible for his own acts. (Anders/Justice willingly accepts Hawke's verdict. – You see: Justice doesn't try to protect Anders, Anders doesn't want to flee from the punishment) In Anders' case, there are situations, when the execution is the best choice (for example rivalry, and support the templars – he wants to die, and really unstable, to killing him a blessing for him.) You're interpreting how I think. Unravel however you like. We were cooking Loghain and Ander's personality and crimes, btw. Not whether peace should be sustained at any price in both cases. The war of the mages is inevitable. I never said I support the persecution of the mages at Kirkwall nor did I say it's not coming. I didn't agree with Anders's mental hops in forcing it to ignite.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 16, 2017 2:15:56 GMT
I agree about Loghain, of course, he has his own reasons. If he wouldn't be regent, perhaps his prejudices would more understandable. As regent, he simply shouldn't allow himself to be prejudiced. Sadly his prejudices prevent him from to be a good ruler, and tempted him to use dirty tools, despite in his position he had better opportunities to enforce his will. He's a farmer boy, a soldier, strategist and hero. Not a ruler. His daughter seems much better in it. (I like Anora + Alistair, the practicality, and the heart.)
About Anders: yes, he just fled, throughout his life, until Kirkwall. Thanks for Justice, he doesn't run away from the problems anymore. Of course, on friendship path. On rivalry (I never did it, just saw), Hawke crush him, and forced him to flee again. This is very sad, because Anders' right. The Chantry's standpoint about the mages is not acceptable, and never was. The peaceful solution does not exist (especially in Kirkwall, but Fiona also failed with). I said, the peace is the best thing ever, but if the price is the corruption and the institutionalized violence behind the closed doors, the revolution is important. The Chantry really needed this purge. Setting off a conflict that raged across nations was a bad thing? No. I played with Surana in DAO and I saw the mage girl in the Circle's Chantry, how scolded herself, because she felt guilty about, what is she. I saw the tranquils, and later, that Bethany feels herself guilty, a burden, because what she is. This is sick. The war was necessary.
And this is the reason, why we will not agree in this. You think, the peace is above all, even if the price is unacceptable. I think, there are exceptions. For example the slavery and the institutionalized violence.
I don't say, that if anyone executed Loghain and/or Anders is a bad decision. The murder happened, and both are responsible for his own acts. (Anders/Justice willingly accepts Hawke's verdict. – You see: Justice doesn't try to protect Anders, Anders doesn't want to flee from the punishment) In Anders' case, there are situations, when the execution is the best choice (for example rivalry, and support the templars – he wants to die, and really unstable, to killing him a blessing for him.) You're interpreting how I think. Unravel however you like. We were cooking Loghain and Ander's personality and crimes, btw. Not whether peace should be sustained at any price in both cases. The war of the mages is inevitable. I never said I support the persecution of the mages at Kirkwall nor did I say it's not coming. I didn't agree with Anders's mental hops in forcing it to ignite. Yes, I used to. I think, he did well, and exactly at the right time. Of course, I understand that someone does not like, if a companion to sets the world on fire. For example, I liked, because as you also said, the war is inevitable. True, I never thought, that Anders is crazy.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Apr 16, 2017 9:36:42 GMT
^ Even if he's not a companion, I wouldn't hesitate to give him to the authorities or the knife. I'm closing this discussion since it's veering off course in terms of the the OT (redeeming / not redeeming Solas), hence I'm not addressing some of the points you mentioned before; justice helping Anders in not running away any more.
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